DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Start Manziel thread

Yeah, I'm sure Johnny delivers those throws to Benji or Gabriel differently, so that they don't fumble them and kill drives. Mourg, please.

You know you're down to no arguments when the talk gets to "he's a winner", the ultimate Tim Tebow argument. And at this point, I'm with you, give Johnny the ball, so that you guys finally shut up about this bum and we can discuss the real problems of this team again.

Probably should start looking for another QB if McCown is hurt. What if Manziel is suspended by the league?

Somehow Thad Lewis is still available.

Does anyone have a clue what could be handed down by the league?

Probably nothing. If they were actually serious about punishing Manziel they would have talked to him right after the incident, not two weeks later.

The police report is online for all to see. I don't think Manziel is the smartest guy in the world, but I don't think he is going to incriminate himself either.

i think the worst that could happen in this case is a warning that you are now on our radar.

DJ:

It is silly to compare Manziel to Tim because unlike Tebow, Johnny can throw the football. We've seen him do it.

He proved in college that he's a winner. Tuscaloosa?? Remember that? Whether he does it in the NFL is another matter, but we won't know for sure until he's playing significant time. If we go
into the off season without knowing what he has, we'd be really stupid.

Sure, why not? Yawn . . .

What makes you think that "we" don't already know?

When I think of "Browns" and "surprise" in the same sentence, it's usually not for positive reasons.

Is that like "double-secret probation"?

Because he hasn't played enough and I believe he's the type of player who's better in games than practice. Just a hunch

We will find out soon enough, but I think you will get disappointed. 80% of his good throws have been hail marys to Benji, some of them blatant underthrows with a clueless DB in coverage. Hopefully he has learned one thing on the bench these weeks: LOOK FOR BARNIDGE AND DUKE !!...that, and don't get knocked around too much

It depends heavily on whether he is already in the substance abuse program and if it's for alcohol. He admitted to having a couple drinks to the cops so I'm assuming he's not currently restricted from drinking..... unless he's just dumb and didn't realize admitting that to the cops would get back to the league.

I really want him to play here on out so we can finally know if he's the answer. Have to know and no reason to wait any longer... this team is not playoff bound.

At this point I agree.

There really isn't anything left to play for, for this season and I too would like to once and for all determine what we have in Manziel.

Like the flaming poo bag gag.

I'm glad I don't have that attitude.

At some point in time, someone needs to figure out that "continuity" involves continuing. What has changing coaches every 2.3 years done for us? What has changing the front office every 3.5 years done for us? What has changing OC's, and defensive schemes every 2 years done for us? What has throwing in brand new qb's every year done for us?


Yeah yeah yeah........Heck, some are already calling for Haslam to sell the team. Dang, I get tired of losing just like everyone else, but for the love of God, can we give someone a fair shake?

Oh, please don't misunderstand. I want Manziel in there so we can finally put his time with this team to rest. I want nothing more than continuity with the coaching staff, and even the front office but if at this point we don't play Manziel then we're going to be stuck with another off season of "doubt".

I actually wouldn't have any issue with us drafting number 1 overall (based on how I think we'll do with Manziel at QB, not to mention the rest of the team's seeming ineptitude), taking a quarterback and letting that guy sit behind McCown for next year. Gives the offense another season under Flip, hopefully Pettine get's ONeil straightened out or takes the defense back under wing and we'll have a good middle of the road season next year with a real chance at success in '17.

If they don't let him know this by Tuesday (tomorrow), he is going to snort it up and be shot for the week.

I don't disagree with you in theory arch.

And I'm not one who will criticize McCown. For the most part, he has played very well. Prior to this week, the two previous games both went into OT. One win and one loss in those two games. So looking at it in the short term, I believe it's anyone's guess as to the best choice at QB on a game to game basis.

What I'm sure of is we're not winning and with our upcoming schedule, we're certainly not a playoff team. I mean I suppose someone could dispute that line of thinking, but I don't see it as sound logic.

I think people are looking for some answers. Looking for some kind of plan moving into the future. And I do understand about playing musical chairs at QB. I understand what you mean about giving players a chance. However, when it comes to McCown, he's had chance after chance in this league and he is what he is. A 36 year old journeyman. It's not as if the book isn't already written on him. That's not a future answer at the QB position.

There are other scenarios here.

1. JFF becomes the named starter and plays this year to get a final answer on JFF's progess.

2. They don't play him this year and we go into next year by starting an unknown commodity.

3. They already have seen enough from him that they plan to draft another QB next year without him ever being our named starter.

No matter what they do, McCown is not the long term answer at QB. If you actually believe they signed McCown as some type of continuity at the QB position, we simply disagree.

I agree with everything you've said in this post other than, they may want to get two years of continuity of McCown if they indeed to plan or, or will be forced to draft a new QB next year.

I know this is the Browns we are talking about, but since when is two years continuity at the QB position?

Just an FYI.

In his presser today Pettine said that if McCown is healthy he will play.

When all you're trying to do is find someone younger to take the starting job from an old guy. I mean, I'm trying not to bag on Manziel since I'm on board with wanting to see him start from here on out and I really do want the team to win so if that comes at the expense of my being made a fool, I'll gladly take it. But man, he hasn't been able to beat JOSH MCCOWN out by week 7 of his second year. That's just horrible. (No offense Josh, you're doing much better for us than any of us have a right to expect...)

8 games, 5 fumbles.... he must REALLY suck in practice, then.

Until week 2 when the fans are screaming, "PUT HIM IN AFTER THE BYE!!!!!!"...

I can honestly say that if McCown is under the center, I will set the DVR and quit wasting time watching these guys live.... at least then I can get through the agony in an hour.

I wish I could do that. I am flying across the country to go to this crap game!

LOL.............great song. Love Chuck Berry.

I have a couple of comments:

1. We are NOT losing games because of McCown. I am not sure if anyone ripped us bringing him in here more than I did, but the guy has played pretty darn good. I warned you that he held the ball too long and had a long delivery. What's surprised me is that he has been more accurate than I thought. tab did call that one. I knew McCown was pretty tough, but I didn't know he was THIS TOUGH! I think the guys bashing him and blaming our losses on him are out of line.

2. I think Johnny should play and I think I was the first to say so when I made that thread about next year's QB a last spring. However, he isn't going to spark us into all of a sudden becoming a playoff contender.

Conclusion: This is a team that is lacking talent, especially in regards to difference makers. I think we need to see if JM has a chance of having a "chance" of being our guy. I have maintained that this was an extremely important goal for this season because this team was ALWAYS more likely to lose 11 games rather than win 11 games. Not many wanted to hear it, but now it's right there in front of your faces to see.

Good work with the iPhone!!

Well, arch... I'm not sure what Browns fans consider a 'fair shake' any more. I really don't.

Think about this: since Art Modell took over the Browns, there has never been a Browns HC who has stayed beyond 7 years (Blanton Collier, (1963–1970).
Sam Rutigliano came in second, with 6 years ('78-'84).

Here's how we've done:

Blanton Collier 7 years. ++, + + + +
Nick Skorich: 4 years. @
Forrest Gregg: 2 years.
Sam: 6 years. @
Marty: 4 years. @ @ @
Bud: 2 years. @
Bill B: 4 years.

MOVE

Chris: 1 year.
Butch: 4 years.
Romeo: 4 years.
Eric: 2 years.
Pat: 2 years.
Rob: 1 year.
Mike Pettine: 1 year.


ONE post-season win since the Marty years.
NO post-season wins since The Move.


With an attention span based on a 3-year (or less) cycle dating all the way back to the late 1960's, I'm not sure that Browns fans can even fathom a 'fair shake' that lasts more than 18-36 months.
And it's not really even their fault.

For some, it's the only 'Browns culture' we have ever known. Even a relative 'Old-Timer' like me was a kid when Art took over... so even my appreciation for this stat/observation is actually based more upon being a student of Browns History than 'keen memories of The Good Olde Days.' I only remember bonding with My Dad as a little kid- when Jim Brown still played for us, and we won it all.


Almost ALL hese most recent (post '99) threads are emblematic of the Cleveland '3-year Cycle' mind set. It's ingrained in the DNA of the Modern Browns Fan... and it colors almost everything the Browns fan sees, reacts to, or thinks.

The 'Family Dysfunction' is the only thing they know.

Browns Fans are addicted to The 'Groundhog Day' Mentality through no fault of their own. They're 'second-generation crack babies' who have never known anything else in their lives.


I don't hate on them. I understand.
They're My Dawgs.


I understand, because I'm part of the last Browns generation to have a hit of pure, uncut Paul Brown. The only Championship I ever saw was under Blanton, but we all know that it was Paul's team that won.

My theory is this: When Blanton Collier won it all during Art Modell's first year of full ownership, it convinced Art that he was somehow smarter than Paul Brown- a guy who had already proven himself with 40 years of acumen and excellence. That's when the 'Modern Era' of CLE Football kicked in. And it's also when "The Paul Brown Curse" kicked in. Modell's own hubris, borne of that 1964 win, cast the 'team-building philosophy' that still plagues us to this very day.

Only... "The Curse" wasn't really a curse. It was prophecy.
Mr. Brown knew what it really took to build a dynasty, and he knew that Art (F*kking) Modell didn't have it.

And Mr. Brown's prediction has held true... for 50 years.
Because we do $h!t the 'Art Modell way'... instead of the 'Paul Brown Way.'

If the brain trust at 76 Groza insists upon continuing the legacy that Art Modell built in Cleveland, they will get the results that an Art Modell Mentality yields:

2 Championships in 40+ years of ownership. And NONE with the team you bought in 1963, and owned for 30+ years.


______________________

"Fair Shake?"

Considering this team's 50-year slice of history, I'm inclined to consider the Pittsburgh Approach:

Chuck Noll: 22 years
Bill Cowher: 14 years
Mike Tomlin: 9 years.
(Kevin Colbert has been drafting PIT players since 2000)


Or the Ravens, since 1995:
2 Head coaches since their inception.
One GM.

____________________


Speaking only as a board member and casual fan of pro football, the only thing I'm saying is this:

1. If your team enacts a 'Total Reset,' you will ALWAYS need 5 years to see the results of The Decision. There are simply too many 'moving parts' in a half-constructed NFL team to do it in a shorter time.

The Browns have routinely hit the 'reset' button at (or around) the halfway mark... in ANY (no- EVERY regime they have tried since 1999.

2. If your team enacts a 'Partial Reset' (O scheme or D scheme) in an otherwise stable team situation, expect to see 1.5 years of struggle.


This team has had ZERO connection with the philosophy of 'consistency' for over 50 years.

For over one-half of a CENTURY, The Cleveland Browns have been a 'Groundhog Day' poster child of 'short-term thinking'... and their fans have reaped the rewards of just such a mind set at the very top of their organization.

Django can spout all the stats/drafte strategy/value v. pick placement he wants.
Eotab can look at the team, year to year... and cheer for us, despite Real Life Optics.
Others can break down film, and play 'Browns GM/Owner' all they want.

The bottom line is this:
We haven't truly committed to ANYTHING.... since 1965.


And that's why we have sucked for 30 years.




....And now, Browns Fans are clamoring for even more change.
After yet another 18 months regime.

What The F#kk?
Is this team supposed to turn around FIFTY YEARS of 'instant grat' culture in 18 months?

I may be in the minority, but I hope like Hell that Jimmy Haslam has the stones required to ignore the howls from all the "I want it- and I want it NOW" fans... and gives this regime the time it takes to build a perennial winner.

2 years to build a playoff team.
5 years to build a dynasty.

We'll be losers until we actually COMMIT to something.

.02,
Clem.







@ = Division champion
* = post season appearance
+ = conference champion
++ NFL champion

Awesome post!

Great post Clem!

Modell's approach was to always give the fans hope. If things weren't doing well, fire the HC and bring in another. With the new HC came "hope" that things would get better. When it didn't happen in 2 years, then fire him and bring in another HC. With the new HC came "hope" that things would get better. And on and on it goes.

Modell fed the fans "hope". Not a winning attitude or approach, but merely "hope". Browns fans have been weaned on and addicted to "hope".


When things are not going as expected the fans want hope. A change at HC/regime brings that hope.

What do we want? HOPE! When do we want it? NOW!

It's how we were raised.

I don't know who's gonna start now... As of 10/27/15:

'Josh McCown will start over Johnny Manziel vs. Cardinals if shoulder OK, Mike Pettine says'

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss...ml#incart_river

Clem you wrote a very well crafted post, but I think you and many others miss some key points. I won't hit on what you said but I will hit the flaws that most fans miss.

#1- we don't decide anything here, in fact we can make all the noise we want the instability comes from within the organization.

#2- Our regular changing of the guard isn't so much the problem its the changing of the roster that drags us down, which is a by product of changes at the top.

For instance and this really is simple last season the defense was sloooooooow coming out of the gate.

Why, you should ask?

The answer is because it took time for the players to learn their rolls and to fit the scheme, which by the close of the season one could easily see the improvement.

We follow that up with a near total revamping of the D line, which BTW wasn't the issue, time in the scheme was.

But this FO choose the fix something that wasn't broken instead of tweeking they went all in for wholesale change, and we ALL see the by product of those changes.

Last season we had Sheard, Skrine, Rubin, Kitchen and to a lesser extent Taylor and this year they are all gone replaced by players that aren't better just different.

Point being they didn't work with what they had they just changed it. One is left to ask what was the net gain. So its not really the fans that place little value in continuity its the FO and the staff.

You site Pittsburg as an example of coaching stability but they also have player continuity. They make changes but not wholesale change roster wise and they run pretty much the same scheme year in year out regardless of who the coach is.

My point if you will would be instead of blaming the fans for change they don't make lets blame the FO and staff for their own instability where we change out players for what appears like its being done for no other reason then change. I mean look at what they changed and what has the net gain/loss been?

Instead of building on what we have we spend our time changing it and yes that is a by-product of changes in FO and staff..

This past off season should have been about tweaking and instead it was about wholesale change in spite of the prior roster showing real signs of improvement.

I would argue that will get better when we build instead of dismantle. That should have been what was done this past off season, but instead we focused on change for its own sake and that's what leads me to have a lack of confidence in the leadership we currently don't have.

Ego's need to be checked at the door, and they weren't.

I'm not sure, but were there any charges filed? Did he fail a Drug or Booze test?

Browns gearing up for Johnny Manziel's possible NFL discipline and start all at the same time

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/10/browns_gearing_up_for_johnny_m.html#incart_river

That is a very passionate and well written post, but I don't think things are as simple as you make them out to be. There are a lot of guys who share your opinion that it's all about continuity.

I have always preached that we needed continuity, but it is not a cure-all.

There are flaws in this line of thought:

--I don't think a team will become good just because you keep the same people in place for a long time.

--Missing on draft picks year after year is devastating to a franchise and continuing w/a poor talent evaluator in the name of continuity will not make the team a winner.

--Releasing productive younger players and replacing them w/older paid mercenaries is not the correct way to "build" a team. You can bring guys like that in when you are a true Super Bowl contender and you need that one last guy or a couple of guys to push you over the top, but you do NOT build a team w/that formula.

--There are a plethora of teams that have turned it around after they shook things up. See Atlanta and Oakland. There are teams that were playing well and brought in new people and have not missed a beat. See Denver.

Clem, I believe in continuity and giving guys a chance. However, it doesn't guarantee you anything. If it were that easy, every team would just stick w/the current guys they have. The key is knowing who the right guys are.

I believe we had the right guy here in Banner. 99 per cent of you railed on him daily. He actually had a long range plan and made some very good moves in his only year here. Now, many of the same people that were calling for Banner's head are railing that we need to keep Farmer, a guy that has made so many blunders that it has become hard to list them all. We simply cannot afford to keep making so many terrible personnel decisions.

I am NOT part of the instant gratification set. I have always preached continuity. I have defended guys many guys like Arians, Butch, Mangini, etc over the years when almost everyone wanted them gone. So I hope no one tries lumping me into a group of people who is classified by "that's all we know..."

Nah Clem, I ain't part of no group other than the group of common sense. Beating your head against a wall repeatedly is not going to get you to the other side. You need a door.

I wouldn't have a problem w/giving Pet more time. I think you can learn and improve as a coach. However, we simply cannot afford to have another year of terrible personnel decisions.

Coaches can learn from their mistakes and improve. Some never will and need to go, but the idea is that they can improve on their decisions.

A GM who can't evaluate talent is doomed. It's not something you really learn how to do. You either have a good eye and know what to look for in players or you don't.

And here is the big difference between a coach and a GM. A coach can mess up a play. They can lose you a game. They can cost you a season. A GM can kill for years by making poor personnel decisions because when it comes down to it, talent wins. Your first round picks should give you around 10 years of productive play. All GMs miss on some of those picks, but to miss on 4 of them in two years is perhaps unprecedented. He's missed on one of his two second round picks. He's brought in older players and gave them big money, but didn't/doesn't want to pay young talent like Skrine, Sheard, and Gipson market value money. He's killing this team and he needs to go.

The word continuity conjures up almost mystically romantic thoughts because we have never experienced it and it makes for good discussion, but making terrible personnel decisions year after year is not the way to build a winner.

That's not a romantic notion. It's brutal reality.