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Originally Posted By: DevilDawg2847
The other thing to think about is if we stop drilling for oil, what will we use to replace everything that is made of plastic? superconfused



The real question to ask is who profits from this agw nonsense. If you recall, Gore and one if his partners, who I believe is named Blood, started the Carbon Credit Exchange in Chicago (in elpresidente`s home town, no less). Blood and Gore were the biggest owners in both carbon credits, and hedges against carbon credits. Doesn't anyone find it suspicious that the guy pushing agw is the one that stands to make the most profit from it?
Blood and Gore


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Originally Posted By: PortlandDawg
Originally Posted By: MrTed
Originally Posted By: PortlandDawg
Originally Posted By: DevilDawg2847
The other thing to think about is if we stop drilling for oil, what will we use to replace everything that is made of plastic? superconfused



We should be growing hemp.


Hemp can be made into plastic? Will I fail a drug test if my PS3 controller is made of it? grin


Really? My hope was that you made this comment in jest.
Yes. Hemp oil can be used to make plastics. It can also be cooked with. hemp can be made into clothing, paper, and other useful products. And no none of it will get you high. Nor could the hemp plant itself.


The first half was a genuine question, I'm not a chemist! Of course the second half was in jest! Hence the damn smiley face! jeez!


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I'm assuming he's showing this as they are protesting the oil rig while kayaking to it using their oil based byproduct kayaks and paddles.


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Originally Posted By: Tulsa
I'm assuming he's showing this as they are protesting the oil rig while kayaking to it using their oil based byproduct kayaks and paddles.


thumbsup


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Originally Posted By: ErikInHell
The real question to ask is who profits from this agw nonsense. If you recall, Gore and one if his partners, who I believe is named Blood, started the Carbon Credit Exchange in Chicago (in elpresidente`s home town, no less). Blood and Gore were the biggest owners in both carbon credits, and hedges against carbon credits. Doesn't anyone find it suspicious that the guy pushing agw is the one that stands to make the most profit from it?
Blood and Gore


Carbon credits is trying to lose weight by having your best friend skip a meal after you ate a six pack of donuts.


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Originally Posted By: RocketOptimist
Let's not devolve this discussion into Liberal vs Conservative. Stick to the facts, okay?

Quote:
I’m well aware that with Paris looming it’s time to be hopeful, and I’m willing to try. Even amid the record heat and flooding of the present, there are good signs for the future in the rising climate movement and the falling cost of solar.

But before we get to past and present there’s some past to be reckoned with, and before we get to hope there’s some deep, blood-red anger.

In the last three weeks, two separate teams of journalists — the Pulitzer-prize winning reporters at the website Inside Climate News and another crew composed of Los Angeles Times veterans and up-and-comers at the Columbia Journalism School — have begun publishing the results of a pair of independent investigations into ExxonMobil.

Though they draw on completely different archives, leaked documents, and interviews with ex-employees, they reach the same damning conclusion: Exxon knew all that there was to know about climate change decades ago, and instead of alerting the rest of us denied the science and obstructed the politics of global warming.

To be specific:

By 1978 Exxon’s senior scientists were telling top management that climate change was real, caused by man, and would raise global temperatures by 2-3C this century, which was pretty much spot-on.

By the early 1980s they’d validated these findings with shipborne measurements of CO2 (they outfitted a giant tanker with carbon sensors for a research voyage) and with computer models that showed precisely what was coming. As the head of one key lab at Exxon Research wrote to his superiors, there was “unanimous agreement in the scientific community that a temperature increase of this magnitude would bring about significant changes in the earth’s climate, including rainfall distribution and alterations in the biosphere”.

And by the early 1990s their researchers studying the possibility for new exploration in the Arctic were well aware that human-induced climate change was melting the poles. Indeed, they used that knowledge to plan their strategy, reporting that soon the Beaufort Sea would be ice-free as much as five months a year instead of the historic two. Greenhouse gases are rising “due to the burning of fossil fuels,” a key Exxon researcher told an audience of engineers at a conference in 1991. “Nobody disputes this fact.”

But of course Exxon did dispute that fact. Not inside the company, where they used their knowledge to buy oil leases in the areas they knew would melt, but outside, where they used their political and financial might to make sure no one took climate change seriously.

They helped organise campaigns designed to instil doubt, borrowing tactics and personnel from the tobacco industry’s similar fight. They funded “institutes” devoted to outright climate denial. And at the highest levels they did all they could to spread their lies.

To understand the treachery – the sheer, profound, and I think unparalleled evil – of Exxon, one must remember the timing. Global warming became a public topic in 1988, thanks to Nasa scientist James Hansen – it’s taken a quarter-century and counting for the world to take effective action. If at any point in that journey Exxon – largest oil company on Earth, most profitable enterprise in human history – had said: “Our own research shows that these scientists are right and that we are in a dangerous place,” the faux debate would effectively have ended. That’s all it would have taken; stripped of the cover provided by doubt, humanity would have gotten to work.

Instead, knowingly, they helped organise the most consequential lie in human history, and kept that lie going past the point where we can protect the poles, prevent the acidification of the oceans, or slow sea level rise enough to save the most vulnerable regions and cultures. Businesses misbehave all the time, but VW is the flea to Exxon’s elephant. No corporation has ever done anything this big and this bad.

I’m aware that anger at this point does little good. I’m aware that all clever people will say “of course they did” or “we all use fossil fuels”, as if either claim is meaningful. I’m aware that nothing much will happen to Exxon – I doubt they’ll be tried in court, or their executives sent to jail.

But nonetheless it seems crucial simply to say, for the record, the truth: this company had the singular capacity to change the course of world history for the better and instead it changed that course for the infinitely worse. In its greed Exxon helped — more than any other institution — to kill our planet.


Link



Before I read any further, what does it look like today?


And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
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Isn't it essentially saying the same thing?

Exxon knew and denied it and still denies it. Isn't it really that simple?


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We had cars that got 80 miles per gallon almost 60-80 years ago. We have engines right now that use magnetic engines that use zero fuel. The problem has never been the tech but the fact that the oil companies assassinate anyone who threatens their cash cow.


You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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Originally Posted By: jfanent
Originally Posted By: RocketOptimist
Let's not devolve this discussion into Liberal vs Conservative. Stick to the facts, okay?

Quote:
I’m well aware that with Paris looming it’s time to be hopeful, and I’m willing to try. Even amid the record heat and flooding of the present, there are good signs for the future in the rising climate movement and the falling cost of solar.

But before we get to past and present there’s some past to be reckoned with, and before we get to hope there’s some deep, blood-red anger.

In the last three weeks, two separate teams of journalists — the Pulitzer-prize winning reporters at the website Inside Climate News and another crew composed of Los Angeles Times veterans and up-and-comers at the Columbia Journalism School — have begun publishing the results of a pair of independent investigations into ExxonMobil.

Though they draw on completely different archives, leaked documents, and interviews with ex-employees, they reach the same damning conclusion: Exxon knew all that there was to know about climate change decades ago, and instead of alerting the rest of us denied the science and obstructed the politics of global warming.

To be specific:

By 1978 Exxon’s senior scientists were telling top management that climate change was real, caused by man, and would raise global temperatures by 2-3C this century, which was pretty much spot-on.

By the early 1980s they’d validated these findings with shipborne measurements of CO2 (they outfitted a giant tanker with carbon sensors for a research voyage) and with computer models that showed precisely what was coming. As the head of one key lab at Exxon Research wrote to his superiors, there was “unanimous agreement in the scientific community that a temperature increase of this magnitude would bring about significant changes in the earth’s climate, including rainfall distribution and alterations in the biosphere”.

And by the early 1990s their researchers studying the possibility for new exploration in the Arctic were well aware that human-induced climate change was melting the poles. Indeed, they used that knowledge to plan their strategy, reporting that soon the Beaufort Sea would be ice-free as much as five months a year instead of the historic two. Greenhouse gases are rising “due to the burning of fossil fuels,” a key Exxon researcher told an audience of engineers at a conference in 1991. “Nobody disputes this fact.”

But of course Exxon did dispute that fact. Not inside the company, where they used their knowledge to buy oil leases in the areas they knew would melt, but outside, where they used their political and financial might to make sure no one took climate change seriously.

They helped organise campaigns designed to instil doubt, borrowing tactics and personnel from the tobacco industry’s similar fight. They funded “institutes” devoted to outright climate denial. And at the highest levels they did all they could to spread their lies.

To understand the treachery – the sheer, profound, and I think unparalleled evil – of Exxon, one must remember the timing. Global warming became a public topic in 1988, thanks to Nasa scientist James Hansen – it’s taken a quarter-century and counting for the world to take effective action. If at any point in that journey Exxon – largest oil company on Earth, most profitable enterprise in human history – had said: “Our own research shows that these scientists are right and that we are in a dangerous place,” the faux debate would effectively have ended. That’s all it would have taken; stripped of the cover provided by doubt, humanity would have gotten to work.

Instead, knowingly, they helped organise the most consequential lie in human history, and kept that lie going past the point where we can protect the poles, prevent the acidification of the oceans, or slow sea level rise enough to save the most vulnerable regions and cultures. Businesses misbehave all the time, but VW is the flea to Exxon’s elephant. No corporation has ever done anything this big and this bad.

I’m aware that anger at this point does little good. I’m aware that all clever people will say “of course they did” or “we all use fossil fuels”, as if either claim is meaningful. I’m aware that nothing much will happen to Exxon – I doubt they’ll be tried in court, or their executives sent to jail.

But nonetheless it seems crucial simply to say, for the record, the truth: this company had the singular capacity to change the course of world history for the better and instead it changed that course for the infinitely worse. In its greed Exxon helped — more than any other institution — to kill our planet.


Link



Before I read any further, what does it look like today?


it's actually grown back a lot. Seems like 2012 was the worst year but that in the last few years it is growing back rapidly.

http://opentheword.org/2015/06/02/arctic-ice-cap-is-roaring-back/

http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/


You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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Best I could find









We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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It's another ICE AGE! Run for the hills... willynilly


Maybe that should be caves.. wink



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Man has trashed this planet since the beginning of the industrial revolution. They use the word "capitalism" as an excuse to do this. All the while, try to use claims that man isn't contributing to the mess of our water, air and climate.

It saddens me that people uphold raw capitalism as an excuse to mistreat workers and our environment, while trying to ignore any responsibility for it.

You can't keep throwing trash in your back yard then claim you have no responsibility for the stench that will surely ensue.


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Well once again we have what I would call a Rant by RocketOptimist.
Once again the Rant is full of holes.

So, lets ask Exxon about all this...

More climate history distortion

Once again, the Los Angeles Times has published a story by a team from Columbia University distorting ExxonMobil’s history of climate research by the paper’s selective, out-of-context use of publicly available company documents.

Before getting to the blatant misstatements – and errors – included in this latest offering, a few important points. First, our company continues to recognize that climate risks are real and responsible actions are warranted. In view of the monumental scale of the world’s need for energy, solutions are not easy – they will require time, huge investments, and thoughtful policies. This is what should have been the focus of the Columbia/Los Angeles Times team and by InsideClimate News, which has produced similar stories recently.

Read it all at...
http://www.exxonmobilperspectives.com/2015/10/26/more-climate-history-distortion/

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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
Man has trashed this planet since the beginning of the industrial revolution. They use the word "capitalism" as an excuse to do this. All the while, try to use claims that man isn't contributing to the mess of our water, air and climate.

It saddens me that people uphold raw capitalism as an excuse to mistreat workers and our environment, while trying to ignore any responsibility for it.

You can't keep throwing trash in your back yard then claim you have no responsibility for the stench that will surely ensue.


And the commies never polluted, huh?

http://www1.american.edu/ted/URAL.HTM

I think you'd find the soviet and chicom pollution of their part of the planet is far worse, as they don't answer to their people.


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Glad to know I can always rely on throwing you into a fit of cognitive dissonance, 40.

My job, as evidenced by all the arguing over small semantics in this thread, is accomplished. We're talking about actual facts, and not mudslinging liberal vs. conservative tomfoolery.

Good work to y'all!

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My advice is for you to rant less and fact more. rolleyes

This is why no one can truly figure out what is going on with Global Warming, to much Politics.

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Originally Posted By: 40YEARSWAITING
My advice is for you to rant less and fact more. rolleyes

This is why no one can truly figure out what is going on with Global Warming, to much Politics.
Actually there are a whole lot of people who know what is going on with global warming. The politics comes from those who disagree with what the scientists know.

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Originally Posted By: rockdogg
Originally Posted By: 40YEARSWAITING
My advice is for you to rant less and fact more. rolleyes

This is why no one can truly figure out what is going on with Global Warming, to much Politics.
Actually there are a whole lot of people who know what is going on with global warming. The politics comes from those who disagree with what the scientists know.


Wrong. The politics are everything. If they weren't, then why is almost the whole democrat party behind agw? It has been shown many times that numbers have been manipulated by 'scientists' that want to believe agw. Even the creator of Greenpeace left his organization, as he said it was infiltrated by former communists that were pushing a climate agenda. This is an investment scam, or do you believe that al gore is pushing his climate change stuff for humanitarian purposes. He is one of the largest owners of carbon credits. They are going to screw everyone so the can sell air.


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What about the study by Exxon's own scientists as shown in the first post of this very thread. Their predictions are proven right by cold hard measured facts.

There was little political brouhaha about this back in the 70s.

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I actually never try to use the excuse that just because someone else is doing the wrong thing, it makes it perfectly fine for me to do it as well.


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Originally Posted By: rockdogg
Originally Posted By: 40YEARSWAITING
My advice is for you to rant less and fact more. rolleyes

This is why no one can truly figure out what is going on with Global Warming, to much Politics.
Actually there are a whole lot of people who know what is going on with global warming. The politics comes from those who disagree with what the scientists know.


You have not investigated how our Government fudges the numbers by supporting those scientists who agree with the agenda and cutting off those who disagree. Each time they poll the scientists that are still working, they get a higher percentage of supporters.

The Truth will set you free.

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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
I actually never try to use the excuse that just because someone else is doing the wrong thing, it makes it perfectly fine for me to do it as well.


Replying to you and rocket.

Temps have not gone up 2-3 degrees C since 1900. It's only been about .8 degrees F. 2-3 degrees C would be 4-7 degrees F.

Check out the weather station audit, which shows how the data was collected for agw studies.
Link 1
http://www.surfacestations.org/

Doing the wrong thing means your data is incorrect, and you are selling people a lie. Data has been manipulated, weather stations have been proven to be located next to AC systems, on concrete, and in metal shacks.

To top it off, ice is growing in both the north and south poles, glaciers are growing all over the world. Yes, some recede, but others grow. The climate is changing because that is what it does.

What about other predictions? Have we had more violent and more storms? We haven't had a hurricane make landfall in the US since 2005. The ice caps are not gone, as had been predicted. The temps have not risen 2 degrees C as predicted. The computer models have never matched up with the real weather. The 'science' is faulty.


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Originally Posted By: RocketOptimist
What about the study by Exxon's own scientists as shown in the first post of this very thread. Their predictions are proven right by cold hard measured facts.

There was little political brouhaha about this back in the 70s.


I do believe if you check the cold hard measured facts from the early 70's, most scientists were warning of Global Cooling! Some were suggesting the spreading of coal dust on the poles to help warm the earth!

Exxon's scientists were saying hold on a minute, lets check this further.

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You have me confused with others. I'm not really on a side here in regards to climate change.

My point is man can't keep using greed as an excuse to keep polluting our planet. We all know that for each reaction, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

We simply can't keep up constantly polluting our air, water and environment and expect that there will be no consequences. There most certainly will be.

Beyond that, I really have no opinion on the topic. To claim you can just continue trashing the planet and nothing will happen seems an absurd idea to me.


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Who's in favor of trashing the planet? Who said that?

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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
You have me confused with others. I'm not really on a side here in regards to climate change.

My point is man can't keep using greed as an excuse to keep polluting our planet. We all know that for each reaction, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

We simply can't keep up constantly polluting our air, water and environment and expect that there will be no consequences. There most certainly will be.

Beyond that, I really have no opinion on the topic. To claim you can just continue trashing the planet and nothing will happen seems an absurd idea to me.


I have said many times that we should be good stewards of the planet, but I do not want to sit in a dark, cold room because the government taxes energy out of affordability. You know, like they're doing with health care.


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Originally Posted By: archbolddawg
Who's in favor of trashing the planet? Who said that?


It's something we've been doing for decades now and anyone who brings up regulations to help stop it is instantly labeled as a tree hugger.

We have to find a middle ground.


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Good luck. Obstructionist politics, along with a faulty SCOTUS ruling on Citizens United, keep us in our current mess.

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Originally Posted By: RocketOptimist
Good luck. Obstructionist politics, along with a faulty SCOTUS ruling on Citizens United, keep us in our current mess.


I'm not going to argue your point, but as long as we keep pointing fingers at each other instead of start looking for some middle ground in this country, nothing will ever get better.


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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
Originally Posted By: archbolddawg
Who's in favor of trashing the planet? Who said that?


It's something we've been doing for decades now and anyone who brings up regulations to help stop it is instantly labeled as a tree hugger.

We have to find a middle ground.


?? What? We're cleaner now than we've ever been.

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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
Originally Posted By: archbolddawg
Who's in favor of trashing the planet? Who said that?


It's something we've been doing for decades now and anyone who brings up regulations to help stop it is instantly labeled as a tree hugger.

We have to find a middle ground.


We got rid of chloral floral carbons what more do the tree huggers want?

wink


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More cars on the road=more overall pollution in the atmosphere.

More cars=more natural gas production.

More natural gas production=more harmful chemicals released into the atmosphere.

More harmful chemicals released into the atmosphere=heat trapped in the atmosphere

Heat trapped in atmosphere=changing ocean current, permafrost melting at alarming rates in the arctic, etc

Changing ocean current, permafrost melting at alarming rates in the arctic, historic levels of change=man made climate change.

Man made climate change=humans polluting the world.

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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG


I'm not really on a side here in regards to climate change.

Beyond that, I really have no opinion on the topic.


rofl My Man!

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And it's been fighting and scratching all the way to make that happen.

I'm not as left leaning as many are. I'm not for suddenly trying to make a change from fossil fuels. But solar is getting cheaper and wind power makes sense.

We need to make a change to those energy sources in a way that works over time that works economically for everyone.

Fighting that change is going nowhere and keeps us dependent on the middle east. I'm tired of watching kids die over there because we fight amongst ourselves about moving forward without a solid energy plan.


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I'm not surprised you take the guts out of a post to try and make a point that isn't there. People can plainly see what you do.


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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
I'm not surprised you take the guts out of a post to try and make a point that isn't there. People can plainly see what you do.


Ahh, relax already.

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Originally Posted By: Tulsa
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
Originally Posted By: archbolddawg
Who's in favor of trashing the planet? Who said that?


It's something we've been doing for decades now and anyone who brings up regulations to help stop it is instantly labeled as a tree hugger.

We have to find a middle ground.


We got rid of chloral floral carbons what more do the tree huggers want?

wink


For all of us to live in sod huts with thatched roof, and to farm for our masters.

You know. Serfing.


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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
And it's been fighting and scratching all the way to make that happen.

I'm not as left leaning as many are. I'm not for suddenly trying to make a change from fossil fuels. But solar is getting cheaper and wind power makes sense.

We need to make a change to those energy sources in a way that works over time that works economically for everyone.

Fighting that change is going nowhere and keeps us dependent on the middle east. I'm tired of watching kids die over there because we fight amongst ourselves about moving forward without a solid energy plan.


No alternative fuel, none, give the same bang for the buck as fossil fuels. The electric batteries they put in cars are some of the most toxic things ever created. No oil, no plastics. Most medical devices that make things safer would have to go away. No solar panels without oil. No new carbon based materials for lighter, cheaper, safer cars.

Someone had better hurry up and invent that fairy dust, or we all will eventually be in those sod houses if the agw believers win this battle.


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Originally Posted By: ErikInHell
Originally Posted By: Tulsa
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
Originally Posted By: archbolddawg
Who's in favor of trashing the planet? Who said that?


It's something we've been doing for decades now and anyone who brings up regulations to help stop it is instantly labeled as a tree hugger.

We have to find a middle ground.


We got rid of chloral floral carbons what more do the tree huggers want?

wink


For all of us to live in sod huts with thatched roof, and to farm for our masters.

You know. Serfing.


If things were left to the left, the terrorists would have crashed them planes into the Twin Teepee's! rolleyes

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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
And it's been fighting and scratching all the way to make that happen.


Yup. And rightly so. Glad for the progress we're making though.
Quote:


I'm not as left leaning as many are. I'm not for suddenly trying to make a change from fossil fuels. But solar is getting cheaper and wind power makes sense.

Yup. If you're a gov't. agency it makes sense. After all, they don't pay for the panels and wind turbines. I do understand, that's part of making progress, though.

Quote:


We need to make a change to those energy sources in a way that works over time that works economically for everyone.


Care to spend a day with me? From my house, I can see 2 wind turbines. One is at the school. Paid for by? Us.

The other is basically in my back yard. Couple hundred of yards away, paid for by the guy that owns the company (and partly by the state). When that guy put the turbine in, he was told it would pay for itself within 3-4 years. It's been there about 7 years, and he hasn't recouped his money yet. Truthfully, he probably never will due to the scheduled "re-builds" of the generator. Oh well, he only spent about $400,000 of his own money on it.

Let's take a drive about 40 miles south of me. There, we'll see a wind turbine "farm". 150? 200 wind turbines. They look wonderful. Half of them even work.

Bowling Green Ohio, they have 5, maybe 6 wind turbines. Enough to generate enough electricity for the city - they were told. Nope.

Let's drive north. North of Alma, Michigan. I don't have a clue as to how many wind turbines they have there - it's a lot. Half of them work.

And you know what? The cost of power hasn't gone down, it's gone up. All this "free" power, and the cost goes up.

Electric companies are able to raise their rates due to reduced usage........well, they have to pay their employees, right?

All the money gov't. spends on solar and wind (ever hear about the solar companies that got millions from the federal gov't, then went out of business?), yet the costs go up?

And while we're doing all this, China, India, many countries, are just polluting away.

I suppose I should just pay Al Gore to plant a tree for me, so he can give me a carbon credit. And he can pocket the money.

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