DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Next Question on Mike Pettine

Does he develop players?

Does he develop young players?

Coaching is not just X's and O's and motivation. Skill development of individual players is a big part of it. Very few guys come out of college with what they need to succeed in the NFL - they have to actually be prepped for the combine.

I'm reading the board. There seems to be some concern over guys like Orchard, Erving, Shelton, Kirksey, Gilbert, etc.... actually most every guy on the team other than Barnidge.

Is he developing players?




_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

"Continuity? Continuity for what?"

My Wife's response to an answer I gave her.

Are the offensive line position coaches operating at the highest level and developing offensive linemen to each players potential?

Are the secondary coaches operating at the highest levels and developing defensive backs to potential?

Are the defensive line coaches operating at the highest levels and ....

Are the .....

I'm looking for some straightforward analysis and comments from you guys. I've only been able to see one game so far (I don't have Sunday Ticket) and I wouldn't have many positives if I was to comment.

Oh well

There is no way for us to know the answer to your question.

I believe the receiver group has improved across the board from their routes to their blocking.

Manziel and McCown have both improved.

Our OL has taken a step back but we lost Shanny who was heavily involved with the OL along with our OL coach. lose one or the other ok, lose both ugg.

DL Shelton is growing into his role, Cooper looks like he is improving as well.

Linebackers ugg, just havent seen any signs of life from these guys.

secondary, the young guys are growing. I know people dont want to hear it but when Gilbert has been on the field he has looked way better. Desire has become much more physical. I thought Campbell was our best safety in preseason so the secondary coach is doing his job.

RB, we have a good RB coach, just not getting the production from this group.

Has the line taken a step back ? or does Josh hold on to the ball to long ?

Well, we did lose our Oline coach before the season. Not sure how much that has to do with our issues. But I suppose it could have something to do with our issues.

Deisel its both.

when we are running our zone stretch, we just dont seem to have that killer instinct this year. Last year, guys were getting cut and put on the ground. This year, our backs are having to run around Our OL on the ground.

grecco is the only guy on the OL with any attitude when it comes to putting defenders on the ground.

Pass protection hasnt been nearly as bad as our QBs have made it appear. Both Manziel and mccown hold it to long.

I think Josh has been doing a good job. The OLine has been getting overwhelmed. Earlier this year I saw several times where the Linemen were moving dropping into pass protection a shade early, but the movement wasn't called. Against St Louis those illegal procedure calls were made.

Was this trying to get a jump on the Defense a taught play, as in "This is something they never call so you can get away with it." Was this just a plain mistake or not is open to interpretation.

When I read I'm understanding where your coming from, but then I start to break it down and realize you are using the word "improving" and I'm using development. So, I try to break it down and define each word.

Some units are developing. Still wondering what specifics you guys could add.

If we replaced the DC and a few of his position coaches, if we threw a ton of dough at the best Offensive Line coach out there, etc... what effect do you think this would have on Pettine and his future?

"If we replaced the DC and a few of his position coaches, if we threw a ton of dough at the best Offensive Line coach out there, etc... what effect do you think this would have on Pettine and his future?"

We've already replaced one OL coach this year...

Thanks

Appreciate the reply.

I agree about the Receivers and the QB coaching.

A couple years ago Pettine inherited a team with 6 Pro Bowlers.

Looking at the team this year, it seems like "improvement" is the best we are going to come up with.

When Pettine got the job, I figured him for a guy who would develop players and then get them to play hard and disciplined. Right now, I would have to dig deep into my homer hat to pull out anything that sounds like that. We can say they play hard on occasion, but defensive players who consistently take the wrong angles, who miss tackles, who can't shed blocks? An offensive line with 3 first rounders and 2 second rounders who can't provide a clean pocket or open holes.

Do the Browns have even the basics down?

The penalties on offense are killer. That goes to preparation.

On defense, it seems to me, that the better our offense does, the worse they do..

Or they may one really good play, and then give up a huge play..

Its maddening.

I am getting a sick feeling that Pet is going to be the fall guy for Farmer's incompetence.

Vers...do you believe Pettine can improve as a leader? Thanks.

Are you saying he is not a good leader now? If so, how do you know that?

Part of what I liked when I heard it was matching the playbook to the player's skill set. We have had a habit of drafting a skill position player and ignoring it (a great blitzed so we rush three or four or, better yet, drop them into coverage.

Get your heads on right.

No, I don't believe he is a good leader at all. This is known as an opinion. Hope it's still OK to have one around here. Thanks.

Sorry. I did not know you held that opinion. I don't really care one way or another.

I just think leadership is a hard thing to judge in the small amount of time we get to see Pettine. I am not prepared to say he is good or bad based on what I've seen.

To answer the original question, I think anybody can improve as a leader.

First thing.........ignore cfrs. I think he is pretty smart and I had hopes for him as a poster, but he is more interested in belittling posters than having a real discussion. He uses the board to feed his ego.

Secondly...........I need a bit of clarification on your question. Are you asking me if I think he can improve as a coach or simply as a leader?

This is the best.

I have to ask you to explain your thinking behind this, because I want to understand why you think there will even be a fall guy after the season.

Part of the motivation behind my post regarding continuity in the Manziel thread was this: I keep reading posts from LOTS of Dawgs that suggest that firings of some sort (either a few or a wholesale purge) are already a foregone conclusion.

I don't know where this thinking comes from. I'm privvy to all the same info as everyone else, and haven't gotten that impression at all. In fact, I've heard practically nothing from Haslam all season. Maybe I've missed some articles that dance near this subject?

There seems to be a LOT of it on the boards, but I feel left out of the loop. Have posters heard/read something that I missed? Or am I reading conjecture written as fact? (Some guys post the same way as they speak... and I've heard folks whose style is like that.)

From your tone, you seem certain about this... and I have had no leanings at all about what might happen in Jan '16.

Help, please.

Perhaps, Clem, I can help you out. The person you responded to is a know it all ego maniac that does as he pleases, yet calls others out for asking questions of him, or taking him to task.

Someone loves being "right", and flaunts it every chance he gets. Someone hates being wrong, and denies it every chance he can.

Someone also, although he/she gripes and moans about regime favoritism and bias...has their own bias but just won't admit it.

That certain someone also has me on ignore. Probably because I called him/her out when need be, and he/her didn't like it and got tired of not being able to rule the board.

As to your question, I've not seen anything that makes me think Pet is gone.

My own opinion is, if Pet gets fired, we're back to square 1 yet again. 2 years and a reboot. Seems to be the case in Berea. I certainly hope it doesn't happen, for a number of reasons.

i'd question whether he can develop talent, our scheme for that matter, at least as far as the defensive side of the ball goes.

we've gone from a top ten defense to the bottom of the barrel.

People like to blame Farmer, which he deserves, but remember: the coach has input on who stays and goes as well. maybe not the final decision, but he has weight.

so who's to say Farmer and Pettine weren't in agreement on all, if not most of the roster changes?

I don't care if Farmer stays or goes. His record so far doesn't look good.

Pettine, I hope we keep. Partly because I think he can develop into a good coach, and partly because I don't see how we could replace him with anything better without giving him a longer shot. We killed ourselves by firing Chud after one year. We have to show some type of commitment if we ever hope to change the coaches we can get.

I think we can survive pulling the plug on a GM early much easier than getting rid of another coach too soon.

I think O'Neil should/could go at the end of the year.

Good points.

Maybe not forgone conclusion. How about a feeling, an understanding that when things get to a certain point, when a definitive line has been crossed, there is no way of retrieval, no matter if Pettine was the promised one.

Kinda like that "quicksand" metaphor on the movie "The Replacements" things just keep getting deeper and deeper. The harder Pettine tries to swim out the thicker and more hopeless it gets. I see the same sort of thing. Its been like that for him since the first week on the job, and it has never let up. He overcame a lot to get a good start last year, but it wasn't nearly enough.

You start to get the feeling that it never will be.

Jimmy knows it. He may be too gun shy right now and at the end of the season, to pull the trigger, but he knows that 2 years of being overwhelmed with dysfunction and adversity on steroids will pretty much do anybody in. Pettine needs an edge, and I'm not sure if he's gonna get it back while he's in this job.

Of course, my question was does he develop players? Players are taught and developed in a progressive, dynamic, and intelligent way. I'm looking for guys who will tell me exactly what they think. Is he doing this? Are we making excuses for him?

We could probably hire Dusty Baker.

There aren't reports that quote Haslam, Clem. I think you already knew that, though. LOL

It's the record. We are 2 and 5. We have lost 10 of the last 12. Haslam said he believed in continuity when he first bought the team, but made sweeping changes a year later.

Our first round picks are disappointing at best. Our roster has gotten older w/out getting better. How many games would you favor us in if you were to look at the upcoming schedule. There have been reports of dysfunction. Pet's name is on the list of coaches most likely to get the axe in national articles. I know that it isn't a in-house source, but there are reasons why others are speculating on his job security. It's not really a pretty picture, Clem.

Of course, I am speculating. Then again, people were speculating when they said the team was headed in the right direction before the year. How it felt different this year. How we going to challenge for a playoff spot. I don't you recall you asking them to provide proof, or did I miss you doing so?

It's a message board, Clem. We speculate and discuss. That's kind of the purpose, right? I am not denying your right to have the opinion that there will be no changes made. It's not an illogical opinion. By the same token, speculating that changes will be made is not illogical either.

I'm not calling for Pettine's head.

But, the above posts suggest there are clear things that need to be answered to.

The guy was dealt a real bad hand. He jumped. Generational wealth and the opportunity to reach the pinnacle of a football coaching career. Not a bad deal and worth putting up with everything he has had to.

He got into the mixer. Like Chud. Both they and their families will live life comfortably because of it. Its part of the deal.

Can Pettine develop young players? Can he develop and cause veterans to thrive? Is he a winner?

If Mike Pettine is expected to answer to anything it should be:

1. Hiring your buddy who isn't up for the challenge. (Is he willing to let go? If not, he may fall with O'Neill. I can see a possibility where O'Neill keeps his DC salary and goes back to being the linebackers coach, but that usually doesn't happen)

2. Camp Cupcake
(this looks like it was a big mistake)

Hey Clem........I tried answering your question. Haven't heard back from you.

This quote from Farmer might help answer your question, as well:



Sounds like he is throwing Pet under the bus.

Pettine sucks, he shows no enthusiasm, the defense sucks, the team has no discipline with all the penalties, he is all talk and no play. He repeats the same thing over and over in his press conferences, but presents no solution. Other teams turn their clubs around after crappy play, but with the Browns it's same ole same ole and Pettine and Farmer are following that same template of garbage. I am tired of all the BS excuses and mostly of watching this team lose. We are the laughing stock of the NFL. Even the 0-16 Lions turned it around and made the playoffs after a couple years.

If so, when does Jimmy shift from "we aren't blowing things up" to I have to blow things up? In other words, what degree of disgruntlement, apathy, fan revolt is necessary in order for Jimmy to not have a choice?

Are they holding off on starting Manziel in order to save him for a late season PR surge if things continue to regress?

If the team isn't playing well, and we have no stars, what is left?

Continuity?

Hope? There appears less hope, on this board, to me at any time I can remember. I've been around a lot longer than the bio on the left says I have.

I won't get in to the first half of this post, because I'm not sure what generational wealth has to do with anything. I'm not much of a class warfare guy if that was some of the angle you were taking. If not, I apologize.

As to the questions he needs to answer:

1) I sigh every time Pet gets criticized for "hiring his buddy". Every time someone says that, they make it sound like it's professional taboo when the truth of the matter is that ALL HC's and coordinators hire their buddies. Pet didn't do anything different than any other coach in the NFL has done.

The only valid part of the question is whether or not Oneill is able to get the job done. Oneill actually was a fairly logical choice when you look at it. Spent the last few seasons with him, knows the system that Pet wants to put in place, a system that generally was pretty good. Why try to bring in someone else who wants to run something different, or has to be taught this one?

All we know about our defense this year is that its been uninspired and its been the biggest disappointment of the season so far. is Oneill incapable? Do the players just not get the advanced concepts? A few weeks ago Tramon said there weren't enough calls, then a week and a half ago we get reports saying that the Dline and LBrs are having trouble getting on the same page with their reads.

As far as I'm concerned, if we have to simplify it and go back to last years defense, then that's what we need to do. We're in a solid 2nd place in our division if our defense plays like it did last season.

2) Camp Cupcake.

In this respect I think Per over estimated what the players were capable of, and he trusted the Vets too much. I think its been our Vets that have been more disappointing than the younger guys. And maybe a lot of these guys with muscle aches should have been pressed to play more in the preseason.

The O-line is a flat out disaster against any decent defensive front. Whether that's scheme or "want to" may be a question mark, but my bet is on "want to". They get pushed around like little bitches, jump off side like they're scared to get hit, and hold because they're afraid to let go.

These are grown men and professional athletes on both sides of the ball, the difference is, then men on our side of the ball play defensively instead of aggressively. Whenever they face a good defensive front, they are simply unable to open holes in the run game and the pocket collapses immediately on passing downs more often then not. If the QB's have to hold onto the ball for a second longer on occasion to find the open man, then it's their job to provide the time to do that, but they can't or better yet, they won't. The deficiencies in that squad were glaringly apparent in the pre-season, were exposed for everyone to see game one, and they haven't improved one bit since.

The coaches can coach until their heads explode, but until the men on the O-line man up and start playing like men, decide they will over power then man opposite them to open a run hole, not move until the ball is snapped and block with aggression and proper technique, they will continue to get pushed around and the offense will continue to fall apart against any and all decent defenses.

When it's all said and done, the season is over, and it's all graded out, I expect to see major changes on that squad, because this over-hyped, mediocre group needs a serious overhaul.

JMHO

anybody watching this game...or the season, shouldn't be advocating pettine staying.

our team isn't good at anything.

I concur. Time to clean house again!!!!Pettine & Farmer both deserved to be fired!

I don't think it's all on Mike Pettine, but clearly the players aren't responding to him very well right now.

The running game stinks (cause we lost Shanahan).

We have ZERO pass rushers along with a banged up and lost looking secondary.

Mike Pettine has been dealt a pretty bad hand as far as "talent" goes, but I don't understand how a 7-9 and mostly competitive team last year just takes two big steps backwards.