DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Continuity---Take Two

Ray Farmer: 'Shame on us' if Browns don't get things together

http://espn.go.com/blog/cleveland-browns...things-together

“Urgency is what prompts everyone to get better and to look at themselves,” Farmer said, speaking before a luncheon fundraiser to benefit the Domestic Violence & Child Advocacy Center at the Renaissance Hotel on Public Square. “I think Pett (coach Mike Pettine) said it at his press conference -- nobody is panicking. The opportunity for us now is to go out and do the things that we know we’re capable of doing.

“Should we have won some games, could we have won some games? Absolutely. Did we win them? No. So the NFL says you are who you are, you are who your record says you are.

“In that instance, we’re going to turn around and say, ‘OK, we know who we are. We know the games we could have won. We know the games we should have won. We know the mistakes we’ve made. How do we correct those?’”

Farmer spoke before the Break the Silence Luncheon fundraiser, and several members of the Browns front office sat at a table purchased by the team, which was one of the sponsors of the event. The Center's website says it provides services for all victims or potential victims of domestic violence, child abuse or other family or relationship violence.

NFL Vice President Troy Vincent gave the keynote speech, and talked about growing up in a family where his mother was physically abused by his father. Vincent became emotional more than once when describing his experience.

Farmer did not get into many specifics about the way players are used or are playing because he did not want to discuss decisions that are coach Mike Pettine’s.

He did say he can see positives despite the record -- among them the play of Josh McCown and adjustments by the offensive coaches to throw more as teams have stacked the box to stop the running game.

“Every team we’ve played has put eight men in the box,” Farmer said. “You can’t run into a brick wall but for so long.”

Farmer did not have time to discuss the defense in depth. He said the loss in St. Louis was frustrating, but pointed out the offense had averaged 23 points going into that game, and 26 points since the second game of the season.

“It just didn’t work out on Sunday where we were able to complement it the same way,” Farmer said. “We didn’t score 26 points or 25 or what we were averaging. It didn’t work out that way. For the most part we’ve done a good job of playing offensively to balance ourselves off.”

He said the onus is on the team to straighten out the situation.

“It’s reflect and correct as a group,” Farmer said. “If we don't do those things, then shame on us.”

Farmer doesn't say much there and sounds dumb doing so.

There's another article right after this one, where he talks about the Manziel incident.

It's more "corporate speak". A whole lot of nothing. Much like Pettine's pressers. Talk, talk, talk...but not much in the way of doing anything on the field. Hope you enjoyed your drafts Ray. See ya.

Not sure what you (or I) wanted him to say. But it's just another dodge in my mind.

Then again, if he does have ideas to fix it, he'd be a fool to put them out there for other teams to hear.

Even though he says, "us", since there is nothing Farmer himself can do at this point, is he saying shame on Pettine?

Well, this part kinda sounds like it's Pet's fault.



Sounds like he is saying it isn't a talent issue but instead a coaching issue.

The little he said sounded dumb and defensive. He tried hard not to fingerpoint, but still did.

This has Banner vs Lombardi backstabbing part 2 written all over it, when both come crawling on their knees to Haslam's desk in January.

It will be ugly. I had some hope for Pettine's integrity, but he's also succumbing to the politics lately. It's sad when you start seeing grown men start to lose it like this. I had my fun with Mangini, because he deserved every bit of it, but felt bad seeing Shurmur, Crennel and now Pettine's looks getting emptier with every passing week.

The more I look at those comments.....



....the more I see one guy throwing another guy under the bus.

Saying that we should have won those games deflects the responsibility [draft and FA moves] away from him and shifts the emphasis to Pet making in-game mistakes.

I'm going to be extremely upset if we fire Pet and keep Farmer.

Perhaps, but he did use "we", not "he". Because of my supposed bias, I interpret that as a shared responsibility...

How is Farmer going to help fix those in-game problems?

Is he going to text down plays?

Is he going to be part of the game planning team?

Is he going to teach guys how to tackle?

Is he going to be in the booth and help w/clock management?

Just how can a GM fix problems in games that his team "should have won?"

I think the only way is to fire the freaking coach and replace him w/someone else.

Besides all of that............it galls me that he didn't even mention the talent issue. You know........the one area that he "should" have a direct bearing on.

My question to Farmer is: How do you correct the issue of we should have drafted better and done a better job with free agency?

Same thing I felt even from his opening statement.

I too agree that we could be close. Maybe it's just wishful thing on my part because I love my team. Yet, I do think we're close.

But those statements Farmer made don't sound to me like he's accepting any responsibility for the losing.

I've not been negative towards either of them. I still think it's too early to start talk about firings. But, like everyone, I've been waiting to hear something from him since his return from suspension and to my ear it sure sounded like he's standing back waiting for Pettine to do something about the losing.

Even though he said "we" he seemed to have removed himself from the mix.

I've stayed away from commenting on this thread.. but I've been reading..

I guess my comment is that if we fire Farmer, and hire another GM.. then that GM is gonna want his own people.. that means another re-boot.

That means our Oline.. our Dline, WR, RB.. everyone on the team will now have new coords.. coaches and a whole new way of doing things..

The only way we avoid that is if we elevate Pet to GM.. and I'm pretty positive he's nowhere near ready for that.. the guy can't even call for a extra point competently

IMO, we need to just grit our teeth and keep things the way they are, it needs to play out.

Ack, I can't believe I said that.

I was picturing your face..knowing you and the expression you had... I was lmao !!!!

I'm all for keeping things as they are. Give these guys a chance to learn from their mistakes.

My main reason for wanting this goes beyond 'continuity as dogma'... it's also based on pragmatism, as well:

Who would come here now?
Our reputation around the league has got to be pretty toxic, considering no one stays longer than 24 months.

I can't imagine seeing their replacements being any better. They'd probably be first-timers at these positions, which means they'd need time for their own learning curves. The record would still stay about the same, because everyone from the GM on down to the practice squad would be learning everything from scratch- again. New GM/New HC... they'll want their own guys and schemes. Prob go back to a 4-3, if the pattern holds... which means we'd have players ill-siuted for the new ways.

We know what that means.... another roster dump. More losing. More new faces. Same debates from the fans: "not enough time" v.s "dump these losers"

I feel like I'm trapped in some awful recurring nightmare... and I can't wake up.

This is going to be unpopular with some posters, but I'll say it anyway:

I wouldn't mind keeping everyone for 5 years, just to see what the hell that might look like. Yes, even O'Neil. Give him a chance to get better.


We've been doing this since Art Modell bought the team. 50 f*ing years! with nothing to show for it but heartache, hand-wringing and hope. It's time to try something different. Repeating the same pattern every 24-36 months gets us the same results every time.
That's just freakkin insane.

tab, please don't lump me in w/other posters. I never got on him for not talking. I am about the only one who has questioned his comments about "should have won..."

I have no issue w/you disagreeing w/my take, but don't dismiss it like it's "silly."

Thanks.

This is a good post. I get what you are saying.

I have suggested hiring a guy who can work w/Pet. Kinda like Bellichick and Pioli were in NE. What do you think of that idea?

Btw.......nice to see you posting.

Clem, I respect your opinion and I am not saying you are wrong.

But man, I just have to wonder if you have even considered the point that I have made that guys just don't magically develop an eye for evaluating talent and that draft classes don't just affect a team for a play, a game, or a season, but instead, can help/haunt a team for a decade.

That doesn't scare you at all? I mean.......what has Farmer done to inspire such confidence that you want to give him 5 years......unconditionally?

jc


The best idea I come up with for continuity's sake is to fire DC O'Neil and Farmer and let Pettine take over the D full time and let Flip ride the bike on O without training wheels.

I'd do that after the Cards game, then trade some vets for late picks or young backups

Not sure about making in-season changes. It's working in Miami, but this is a different situation. Most teams that make in-season changes are teams that have given up on the season. I think winning/losing is contagious. I've seen too many of our teams give up once they knew changes were imminent. Not saying I am right......just something to consider.

Riddler brought up a good point on another thread. He was talking about preparing for free agency and the draft w/a new GM.

I wonder about that.........

Two comments by Phil Simms while watching Pats/Dolphins:

--He was talking about the RB [onas Gray]who is playing for Miami this year but played for NE last year. The guy was coming off a game in which he had 215 yards and was late for practice. They got rid of him. Think about the Browns and how they treat guys like Gordon, Gilbert, and JM.

--He also said that the quickest way to get cut by the Pats is to give up outside in run defense. LOL..would we have any edge players on our D if we did the same thing.

Championship attitude vs Chump attitude

But yeah, play like a Brown.

Edge Players? We wouldn't have a defense.

How can we not fix this? You get taught this in peewee league.

Well..............Pet's defense had the same problem in Buffalo. Lot's of sacks. Poor run defense. Especially on the edges.

We crash our edge guys inside a lot. The theory is to help the inside run defense while dropping inside linebackers into the shallow and intermediate zones over the middle, while allowing the corners to play cover 1 on the outside. It helps pass defense, but is succeptable to outside runs.

Somebody still has outside contain though. I have never seen a defense where somebody isn't assigned outside contain.

Yep. I considered it. You made your point quite well. I really didn't have a rebuttal or any new thoughts on the conversation, so I left it to others to carry on the conversation.

From your writing, it seems that you've pretty much closed the book on Farmer as having no eye for talent. Now trust me , I'm not claiming the opposite. My jury's still out on the guy. It may be that he really IS in over his head, I truly don't know. All I do know is that he hit on some lower round picks, SEEMS to have missed on his early-rounders... and picked up a 'mixed bag' of FA's in his time with us.

I think the biggest difference between you and I lies in how much time we each need to make a decision/determination about things... any things. You strike me as a decisive, "make a choice and go with it" kinda guy in real life. I'm a deliberate. I take in all the info I can- and even then, I sometimes take extra time before I make a choice/decision. Drives my wife nuts.

I've always respected your football acumen, and have noted how many times you've been proven to have correct observations sooner than lots of other posters. Such might be the case this time, as well. Like I said, I don't know... I haven't collected enough data on the guy yet. I know that our early round draft picks haven't produced for us, but I'm giving THEM time, too. They may end up being busts. That's entirely possible. After they've been in a Browns uni for 3 seasons, I'll have my assessment.

Manziel & Gilbert are the two biggest names, and QB's and DB's have longer, steeper learning curves than other positions. Character issues are important, too- and these guys have failed the test... so far. See a theme here? I'm even willing to give these young men the time it takes to figure it out.

Hey- I'm just a slow, patient, deliberate guy, you know? I was a wild, impulsive, reckless kid... and the mistakes I made back then forced me to change my approach to life. Now, it's in pretty much everything I do. I guess that includes setting timelines for my favorite team.

When I look at guys like Gilbert, Manziel, Shelton, etc. I can see why we (or any other NFL team) might take them, at least based on their college accomplishments. The fact that other draft picks have flashed earlier for their teams hasn't soured me on them- yet.



Nope. I'm not scared. Browns GM's have been setting this team back since the Clinton era. (In my best Foghorn Leghorn voice: "That's a joke, son"...)

And to be honest, it isn't confidence that compels me to give him more time....
...it's the difference in how much time each of us needs to make a decision.

Here's the real deal: As I've told you before, I was willing to give Joe Banner 3 years without saying anything when he got his job. I didn't know anything about the guy (other than he came from Philly), so he came in with a clean slate for me. (I HATED the Lombardi hire from Day One, but I DID not sew them together at the hip.) I hated the TRich trade when it happened, but came to quickly see that move as a stroke of genius. I loved how he stockpiled draft picks, and couls see some method to his moves. I HATED that Chud got canned AFTER ONE FREAKKING YEAR, and that we lost Horton and Turner at the same time. And when Banner soon followed, I wasn't exactly jumping for joy... because my precious 'continuity' was screwed once again.

I wasn't a huge Bannerfan... but I was coming around. Then, we lost everybody. Once again. Because that's what we do here in CLE.

Look- maybe 5 years is a bit more than prudent. I'm willing to rethink the time frame, but at the same time, I'd ask you to understand the 'Big Picture' that I'm trying to sell with my POV.

I guess 'unconditionally' is too strong, even for me. I'm sure that after a third offseason, I'd be getting a clearer picture of Ray Farmer than I have now. Maybe then... if Manziel is still a reckless screw-up, Gilbert is still buried on the depth chart and guys like Shelton, DeSir and K'Waun haven't panned out, I'll jump on the "fire him!" bandwagon.

I'm just not at the same place you are with the guy.
Doesn't make either one of us right or wrong with our assessments.... just- different.

That's the best I can give you tonight, Vers. I played a crapload of Brahms tonight... and my brain is fried!


Hope my post at least made sense.

Thanks for replying. That is the kind of post I can get my head around.

Look Clem....I don't always realize it, but I get from reading other people's posts that I tend to post very strong opinions. I have people in my life tell me how my principal is intimidated by me. That is not my intent. Not even close.

I appreciate your opinions. I hope my direct manner doesn't bother you.

I am really happy you debated me. It's how we learn. I always wonder if any of you ever get that is my goal on here?????

I am not a "make a choice and go with it kind of guy," Clem. Instead, I always process information before I speak. You would see that immediately if you met me in real life. Believe me, I put some thought into things before I make comments like Farmer is throwing Pet under the bus. I don't make those comments off the hip. Now, as a former coach, I can make quick decisions when needed, but I prefer to process things before making a decision.

And bro...........I am still waiting for legitimate reasons to change my opinion as to why I think Farmer should be replaced. I can change my opinion. I am not one of those guys who picks a position and sticks w/it no matter what the evidence is. I don't only debate one side to win the argument. I am in search of the truth. I could care less if I was wrong. If you are afraid of being wrong, you will never succeed, because you will never take chances or you will never learn from your mistakes.

Thanks.. well lessee.. I'd rather have someone work with Farmer.. who would such an individual be? If it was Ron Wolf or Polian.. I'd hand the man the pen to sign the contract myself.

I don't see Wolf leaving the Pack anytime soon and Polian seems content to guest on SC whenever they want his take.. We already tried Holmgren (Ewwwww) I'm suspicious of Pioli.. hmm who else?

ONE guy that I'd like to bring on as Asst GM.. and director of player personnel is Duke Tobin from the bungles.. Making him Asst GM would be a promotion and make it possible..

http://www.cincyjungle.com/the-chronicle...general-manager

Raise your hand if you find the irony. New York Jets fans want General Manager John Idzik fired. Forget for a moment that the same management structure that hired him on Jan. 24, 2013 is still in place to hire the next general manager. In truth, New York's roster has declined since he's taken over and that's never a good sign. A website FireJohnIdzik.com has already launched. A plane that carried a "Fire John Idzik" banner flew over practice in November. A twitter account was made with over 2,000 followers and we suspect that that effort will grow exponentially around black Monday (a day usually dedicated to firing head coaches). Even the team's website is wondering if Idzik will be in New York much longer.

One of the "hot names" for general manager is Bengals director of player personnel, Duke Tobin. The NY Post, listing potential candidates, writes that Tobin "played a big role" in the Bengals effort to assemble "a very talented roster that is heading to the playoffs again." Rich Cimini, who covers the Jets beat for ESPN, names Tobin, writes that there's "no traditional general manager in Cincinnati, so he works closely with coach Marvin Lewis. The Bengals are notoriously cheap -- see the skeleton scouting staff -- but the roster is filled with talent."

That's why the Cincinnati Bengals should finally do it.

Now.

It's as good a time as any.

Remove the General Manager title from the family name and promote Duke Tobin to that position, along with comparable compensation that some of the best general managers already receive. Allow Katie Blackburn to continue contract negotiations and leave Tobin with football operations.

Along with the general fear of losing one of Cincinnati's best personnel minds, he's already doing most of the GM job without the actual title. Tobin and Marvin Lewis have a great working relationship, with Tobin knowing exactly what Lewis is looking for and finding the players that he wants. Duke Tobin, son of Bill Tobin and nephew to Vince Tobin, has held the title of Director of Player Personnel since 2004 for the Cincinnati Bengals, often coordinating with head coach Marvin Lewis in developing the team's rosters.

In addition to that, Tobin, who has filled in Jim Lippincott's role, is exceedingly influential in the NFL draft. During the NFL combine in 2013, Lewis praised Tobin's work.

"I've been very impressed with Duke from the very onset," Lewis said at the NFL Combine in February '13. "He’s continued to grow. Mike has given him a great deal of responsibility and put him in charge of a lot of things," Lewis said. "He’s my liaison as far as what we do on the pro side, when we have injuries (during the season) and he’s directing the scouting efforts throughout and making sure that everything’s done and the cross-checks are done so we're able to do everything we have to evaluate these guys.

"He’s done a very good job of putting the information together, the cross-checking of things, the organization of things. He’s really streamlined it, I think both personnel and coaching-wise," Lewis said of Tobin. "We have a pretty good blueprint for what we're looking for what we do on offense, defense and special teams. We've shown some flexibility that for whatever reason we may have had a little higher grade on and were available to us when it was our turn to pick. We’ve done a great job of doing what those guys have done on their college campus and tried to give them at least that No. 1 thing to do when we got them on our field."

Think back to the '12 draft where the Bengals snagged wide receiver Marvin Jones and safety George Iloka in the fifth rounds. Or Geno Atkins in the fourth round in '10, or Carlos Dunlap in the second in the same draft. Michael Johnson in the third five years ago? Think about the undrafted free agents like Emmanuel Lamur or Ryan Hewitt -- Vontaze Burfict was more of Marvin Lewis' project.

Tobin is going to be, if he isn't already, one of the league's hottest candidates for vacant general manager positions. He's young and experienced, with a scouting background that works well with the coaching staff.

Thanks Saint. You were always a great poster and the board would be a better place if you would post more.

Thanks for the kind words.. but consider what I'm saying.. lets stick a Duke Tobin next to Farmer's hip.. that way you get another set of GOOD eyes looking at talent.. without having to blow things up (and have a backup in case Farmer does flame out..)

This way we keep the continuity and we get better!.. plus we burn the bungles.

I consider everything, Saint. I love debate. Honest debate.

The more intelligent points we have in the debate, the closer we get to the truth.

I read a post the other day where a guy said why should I present both sides of an argument when I am debating one side. I questioned that and 88 said I was nauseating.

That baffles me. I am not looking to win a debate or argument. I am looking to get as many intelligent opinions and factual information as I can so we can all make an informed, logical, rational evaluation that minimizes bias.

Yes. You do sometimes come across that way.

BUT: I've also learned to attribute that to "posting style," so it's never been an issue with me. "Learn your Dawgs/learn how to talk with them." That's how I approached this message board from the very start (dating all the way back to the 'Dawg Talk' days).

I suspect that you write as you speak, which happens all the time on message boards. I tend to write super-wordy essays and op-eds when I care enough about a subject. I guess I'm more of a 'blogger' when I drop those 1,000-word posts of mine. It's a quirk of mine that I can't seem to shake. Everyone has a 'personal style.' It's an extension of who there are. It's part of the reason why I keep coming back here.



I know you appreciate my junk.
You've told me many times before... and I've never doubted you.
As for your self-described "direct manner": it's all good. We are who we are.



I wish I could help you with that one.

I don't actually HAVE legitimate reasons, other than this observation about people in general, no matter what their profession may be:
They tend to get better at their jobs after they've had them for a few years.

When I first got my job, I knew where all the notes were on my instrument. I knew how to read the music, and get the sounds out. I'd been "a big fish in a little pond" all my life- but what I didn't know was how to be a professional at my craft. Not at this level. Looking back, it took me almost 5 years to work out the 'fine points' of stuff I now take for granted... and I was never a 'slow learner.'

When I look at these Browns players, coaches and their GM, I see the same number of 'moving parts' at work in my own profession. It becomes almost impossible for me (as a casual fan) to assign specific blame when things don't go as planned. And that ambiguity and uncertainty is why I almost always choose caution and 'slow-walking' when it comes to Top-level personnel firings.

I don't know what these pros know.
Hell, I don't even know how much YOU know... but I've always accepted the fact that you know more than me. That much is not in doubt.

I will only speak with authority about things I'm expert in. That most certainly isn't the NFL... or what the Browns need to do. I BELIEVE that that everyone should stay... but that doesn't mean that I'm right about this specific grouping of personnel.

I'm just a fan- with no insider info or special knowledge about the team I support.


That said, I'm more 'intellectually curious' about seeing what a true 5-year plan might give us Browns fans...
...because we've never really seen it since Paul Brown was fired by Art Modell.

Fifty.
F*ing.
Years.

One HALF- CENTURY of doing things the exact same way... with the same results...

And counting....


.02,
Clemmy.

By Bud Shaw, Northeast Ohio Media Group
Follow on Twitter
on October 06, 2015 at 4:05 PM, updated October 06, 2015 at 5:24 PM


CLEVELAND, Ohio – The Browns' offense is ahead of the defense.

Just as none of us predicted.

This isn't the best news for the short term or, worse, for Mike Pettine's long term.

The immediate issue: The Browns go from trying to solve Philip Rivers to Joe Flacco, Peyton Manning, Carson Palmer, Andy Dalton and Ben Roethlisberger (with some Nick Foles sprinkled in) before they get a week off.

On the flip side, can the offensive production on display against the Chargers be counted on to hold up against Baltimore, Denver, St. Louis and Arizona over the next month? All those teams are better defensively than San Diego.

A 1-3 record is a bad start. A 1-7 record pretty much guarantees a bad finish, too.

Probably 2-6 but who's counting?

Pettine's footing on this particular leg of the journey is already shaky, having lost eight of his last nine games as head coach. This portion of the schedule threatens to extend the misery. If that happens it becomes part of the first reference to the head coach in every game story: As in, "Pettine, who has lost 12 of his last 13 games..."

In that scenario, Pettine's ability to reach his players dwindles as the losses mount, either because of shaken confidence in him or uncertainty that Jimmy Haslam meant it when he said what he saw in Pettine a year ago.

Once again, its not whether MP has the ability, its whether he has the ability to overcome all the adversity and two years of daily kaos. Seems like this writer sees what I've been trying to get across.

That exact quote again (For Pettine's listening pleasure): "We're not going to blow things up, OK?" Haslam said on Aug. 1. "I think we're on the right track, so we're not going to blow things up.

August 1st and the third week of November are two completely different things in the NFL

"[I] Understand why people might ask that after a couple bumps in the road the first couple years. I think we're putting in place a good foundation."

The "bumps in the road" was a complete regime and organizational flow chart change.

"I think we got the right people in place

And, herein lies the major issue. Do we? Do we really? If so, continuity is great, awesome, amazing, if not then we are in big trouble.

to over a period of time be successful here," Haslam said. "If I had said at this time last year we were going to be 7-9, you all would have said, 'That's pretty good." The problem is we lost our last five. We get that."

And now three of the first four. You should hope Haslam still means it.

When dealing with BILLION dollar situations sometimes things change.

The last thing the Browns' need is another coaching change.

Unless your the Brown's fan that watches what really well coached teams look like and then watch your team. Then, just like managing fluctuating, dynamic billion dollar organizations, things change. Or, you can just beat your head against the wall hoping that ???

How foolish to hire a first-time head coach (and GM), sign off on the hiring of first-time coordinators, then fire the lot of them for coaching like rookies.

Sports Journalist, you speak as if you are the all knowing, omnipotent purveyor of absolute truth. I thought you were just a sports hack.

That doesn't stop owners from doing it. It should stop Haslam, if he cares about what another quick trigger would mean for the team and for future candidate pools.

Once again, absolute truth. Forget the possibility that it could shave 3-5 years off the eventual re-build of the franchise into a Super Bowl contending organization. I guess truth has spoken.

Pettine should survive another losing season like the last losing season. But a month into the new campaign, the poor start, the schedule and the startling defensive vulnerability create the sense that things could go sideways quickly.

Last year, when Bellichick's team had serious defensive and offensive "vulnerability" he... FIXED IT. No excuses, no explanations. Great coaches coach teams like the one I watched last night. When I DVR'd the debacle against Denver, the minute it ended I tuned in to the Sunday night game. First thing I noticed, first thing that jumped right off the screen... how well coached the team was that I was watching. How clean the quarterbacks pocket was, how tight the receivers routes were, the timing of everything. I'm not a lover of Bellichick, I'm more of a Walsh man, but great coaching is great coaching. Excuses are excuses. Except when continuity is threatened.

OK, more sideways.

Could Pettine survive 3-13, 4-12? If you trust that Haslam had absolute courage in his convictions when he spoke in August, then he should. But defense is Pettine's field of expertise. It's also where the owner is spending the bulk of his cap money.

It doesn't matter, only continuity matters![b]

It's a direct reflection on Pettine. That would be the case even if his nickname weren't "Blunt Force Trauma."

[b]Lets change "Blunt Force Trauma" to Vanilla Frosting on Camp Cupcake

But it's more the case because the Browns' defense – save for its first-half work against rookie Marcus Mariota – looks passive, indecisive.

"I can't sit here and say that it's not a source of frustration, it's not a source of disappointment," Pettine told reporters Monday.

"We need to play better. We need to play better across the board, and we haven't. That's why we're 1-3. Defensively, given my background and just where we are as a coaching staff and having worked closely with those guys for so long and continue to, that whole room is upset. It's prideful."

Pettine said he is not planning wholesale changes. That's what he should say, even if he is planning wholesale changes. But with the season underway, how reasonable would major changes be anyway? The talent is better than last year. The depth is better.

But Mike Pettine's defense isn't playing with Mike Pettine's attitude and confidence. And that's a problem. At least until the owner tells us again that it's full speed ahead regardless.

Jimmy?

Yea... Jimmy?

Agree 100%

But, if you have someone chosen to be in the first chair, who clearly is hitting the wrong notes, how long do we expect the orchestra/band and audience to wait until they reach the level of all the other first chairs in all the other orchestras?

Pettine may have been the man. My question has been, in lieu of 2 years of kaos, is he still?

If he cannot take us to the Super Bowl then...

I'm not sure if he can or can't. I'm hoping to get rational opinions from vested Brown's fans. You guys.

Farmer

He doesn't have "it"

My opinion, but I'm secure in it. He was hired during an avalanche of drama. He may be fine to manage an organization like the fins or titans, but not my Brown's. Sorry if that's mean and harsh. He's not good enough at what he does.

Getting better five years from now won't be good enough for me. He doesn't see things the way I want my GM to see them. I was more secure with Savage, Heckert, Banner (I know he was the whatever and not the GM, but he was the GM). I didn't feel comfortable when he was our third tier personnel guy, I gave him benefit of the doubt once he became GM, now I have a truckload of evidence to suggest that he is who we knew he was -- that personnel guy on the Kansas City Chiefs Hard Knocks episodes.

Third Tier

Mean, harsh, accurate

He is who everybody knows he is.

Multiple High First Round Draft Picks. Never picks one who is an above average performer in the position that they play (exception last year's performance by Bitonio, a second round pick).

That is who he is.

And, we will wait 4-5 years to see if any of his picks improve to the level of a 3rd or 4th chair performer.

Thanks for letting me speak my peace.

I'll try to be kinder and gentler on this topic...

for awhile

j/c:

I don't think either Farmer or Pettine will have anything to worry about for next year. It's 2017 that's the milestone, IMO.

I think you're right.

That's why I'm not hesitating in leaving myself open for "the wrath"

I don't agree w/a lot of what you are saying, but I respect your right to voice your opinion. That is what this thread was for.

The question would be: Why would he leave a team with a vrery real chance to win a superbowl or even multiple superbowls in the next couple years to become an assistant GM.

GM? Perhaps. Especially if the bengals win the superbowl this year (he gets his ring) AND we pain him a ton of money