DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Declining Student Resilience: A Serious Problem for Colleges

Not necessarily. Ask yourself what the cause of the behavior demonstrated by the student may be. Is it lack of parenting, lack of education, lack of accountability, lack of brains, lack of nurturing, lack of guidance or some other root cause? I feel quite certain that no individual in that classroom made that student behave defiantly toward three different authority figures.

What would have happened if she simply gave up her phone for that class time (which, by the way, she most likely was not supposed to have out in class anyway) or left the classroom as she was reportedly asked to do?

Somewhere she has been taught this behavior and I feel quite certain it was not from the people in position of authority in that classroom. People, which by the way, carry a responsibility for and safety of ALL students in that classroom.

Why did SHE choose THIS behavior as opposed to doing what she was asked?

We haven't forgotten how to be compassionate at all. Go to youtube, there are a bunch of videos of people doing wonderfully compassionate things for their fellow man. Sort by # of views then start at the bottom, most of them have about 500 views... where as something like this will have hundreds of millions of views.

And part of "caring" is holding people accountable, it's instilling a sense of discipline and respect in people. This cop has been fired, he will forever have this on his record and a large number of people will hold him forever guilty no matter what eventually ends up happening. He will be held accountable for his involvement in his.

What is going to happen to her? She might get some minor juvenile charges for resisting arrest, but she probably won't even have that. Then she will end up getting a seven figure check from the school system/police department.. and for what? For something that was the direct result of her own poor behavior. What is that message to her and to the other kids who are well aware of what happened? So the other kids, are they learning a lesson from this in why you should do the right thing and put your phone away when your teacher tells you to?

Let's look at the timeline of events here.

Girl is asked by the teacher to put her phone away in class. If she listens, end of story. It happens thousands of times per day I would guess.

She refuses. Mistake 2. (mistake 1 was having her phone out to begin with)

Teacher calls a superior who comes and asks the girl to put the phone away.

She refuses. Mistake 3. At this point, the worst that would happen is she gives her phone to the authority person and gets it back at the end of the day.

Resource officer enters, asks girl to put away her phone. She refuses. That's mistake 4 on the girls part.

4 mistakes on her part so far.

Mistake 5: Resource officer/cop gets too physical.

Result? He loses his job, girl gets fame and possibly a law suit settlement.


It amazes me how disobeying generally accepted authority figures is seen as ok.

Oh, she lost her mother as well, at some point in the not too distant past? That sucks. The school would also have had someone to help her had she asked, or even been referred.

There were 4 opportunities for this to be resolved with no problems. The girl refused all 4.

The cop had an opportunity to simply take the phone, or even to peaceably remove her from the class. He failed.

I go back to JM and his deal with the cops. He respected, he told his side of the story. He didn't confront. He didn't refuse to cooperate.

Now, I know some will think I'm blaming the girl here. She DID have 4 opportunities to comply with an authority figure, didn't she? And yes, I think the cop handled it incorrectly. He lost his job, also.

Boo hoo.

I find it hard to tell you
I find it hard to take
When people run in circles it's a very very...
Mad World
Mad World

I hope you took my post in the right way. He made a mistake in his attack. Yes. I've said that many times.

But the girl also made at least 4 mistakes prior, right?

Dude lost his job, probably rightly so. What is this girl losing? Or, better yet, what is she gaining?

What you get is people who realize that they are going to be held responsible for their actions.

I mean she lost her mom...

Punitive damages.

She should be suspended.

Still waiting for Rock to share some insight as to what would cause this student to behave the way she did. I'm not hearing the problem here. Only hearing debate about the symptoms. Mmmmmm.....interesting!,,,,,

I watched the video and the one I watched does look pretty brutal. From what I understand, she was not injured but the way the desk gets flipped over could have been bad. It could have broken her neck. It's hard to pass too much judgement on that without seeing what happened before that but it does look bad.

With that being said...

Should she be removed from the room? That is, speaking generally here-- if a student is disruptive and disobedient, should they be physically removed from the room? Like if a kid repeatedly breaks a rule (whether it be playing on their phone or just being loud/disruptive), won't listen to the teach, won't listen to an administrator, won't listen to a cop, it seems perfectly reasonable to me to physically remove the kid from the class so that others can go on learning.

With that being said, how do you do it? I can't imagine it would ever look pretty, if a student was clinging to a desk. I skimmed through the earlier posts in this thread and one person suggested that the remaining students in the room should have been cleared out, but what exactly does that do? I suppose it might contribute to the safety of the other students but it doesn't really change the idea that the disruptive kid has to be removed (making an assumption there of course.) I'm just wondering how it's done. I honestly don't know. Somebody guide me through the process on how it should work and look acceptable and completely non-violent should it be captured on video.

Just for clarity, I'm not necessarily defending the officer's actions. Think of this as a devil's advocate type of thing. I'm just trying to learn how things could have been done better in real time.

One can make a career out of waiting for Rock.

N

An effective school district would most likely have a plan if this type of behavior is frequent from the student. An FBA or Full Behavior Assessment would be completed.

If determined necessary, a team would meet consisting of the teacher(s), guidance counselor, psychologist, parents, principal and the student if appropriate.

Ideas would be discussed. Some of the ideas discussed would be positive reinforcement, a non verbal signal of some kind to be utilized by the teachers as a warning signal to the student, enhanced suggestions for student engagement, guidance support in the classroom, discussion of the need for a TSS (therapeutic support staff), information from the parents about what works at home, a behavior contract may be signed, there may be a step that involves a resource officer, peer or administrator in de - escalation among other modifications or adaptations. All attendees would sign a document evidencing the meeting and awareness of the discussion.

There should also be training on de - escalation techniques by all staff involved with the student. There may also be discussion between principal, teacher, psychologist and guidance counselor about exactly what the plan will look like in the classroom. It may be as simple as: if A occurs then B etc.

The teacher should then meet with the student to reiterate the plan and exactly how it will work in the classroom. The student expectations MUST be very clearly stated! A superior educator will ask the student to restate the expectations including MUTUAL RESPECT. They may be posted in an inconspicuous place as a reminder for the student and there may be a private non verbal signal between educator and student to signify the beginning of a poor choice.

As a teacher of a struggling student, I would be certain fhe first classroom incident that occured was met with positive reinforcement. I would dig as deep as necessary to find the good things with the student to celebrate and highlight when I could.

The plan developed by the team should be worked to the letter. The follow up should be exactly what follow up was designed by the team. Frequent student reminders will be neccesary for success.

Unfortunately, many students experiencing anger issues or other issues of defiance or emotional issues will be resistant and even after all of the planning, discussion and implementation, the process fails. Eventually, just as with addiction, the individual must find the intrinsic motivation to want change.

If the plan fails, the team may reconvene or a decision may be made for a special placement depending upon the student need. There are times when it may be necessary to consider the remaining students in the classroom in the decisions.

Each student is entitled to his/her least restrictive environment. However, there are times when creating least restrictive for one creates something less for others. It is a fine line we walk.


Unfortunately, the SC issue is not a model example of how these types of issues should be handled.

Removing all other students from the classroom is not a viable option as it continually disrupts the learning of others.

I know I left something out but I hope this offers some understanding as to how schools should effectively handle these types of situations within the school setting.

Thanks for caring enough to ask hasugopher!

I won't. Don't have time. This is what happens when people have no answers that make sense.

And all of that, folks, is what makes education cost so much.

Rather than simply say "this is the way it is" for the students, we now need to have an FBA, Do an assessment. Discuss ideas, have positive re-reinforcement, well, all of this:



Yeah, do all of that, cause ? Why?

Why would a school district need to spend thousands of dollars on 1 kid that doesn't care? I don't mean to sound mean, but come on. Really? It's no wonder our schools don't have enough money to operate. They don't, because they have to have interventional specialists, over seers, and any list of crap specialists.

Here's the problem: it exists at home. Period.

So this girl didn't have a home with mom? She certainly didn't have a dad - well, a dad that cared about her. She got screwed by having parents that: died, and the other one didn't care. The other one might not even know he had a kid.




Damn, when are people going to wake up to the fact that .......eh, never mind.

Arch, education psychology is much more nuanced than put up or shut up.

Truthfully? I think that's part of the problem.

It's not a "put up or shut up" situation, but with all this "new knowledge" we've become a "hey, wait a minute, this kid has issues and we, as the school, need to address them and help them and we need more money" Mean while, mom doesn't give a crap, dad isn't in the picture, and the kid has learned, at home, he isn't worth crap, and he finds out, on the streets, he is worth crap, and that's what he does........crap. Then gets busted. Then we hear about how the system failed him. Like it's my fault his dad didn't even know he had a kid. Like it's my fault his mom just wanted money.

Maybe I'm just having a bad day..........but if a kid doesn't want to learn, if a kid is taught at whatever kind of home they have that "learning is a waste of time".......trust me, it's a waste of time trying to teach them. But, that waste of time and money becomes an even bigger waste of money when those people live off the system with no qualms about sucking from the teet that real workers provide.

Nn

It is never a waste of money trying to help a child. It becomes a waste when, as an adult, ample opportunity to lift ones self up has been given and it is rebuffed.

I get where you are coming from. Our children are our greatest natural resource.

It's much easier to build a child than repair an adult!!!!

I understand that, and agree. I have no problem helping a child. But, when that child is at home learning that "education don't matter", and that child becomes a problem in school........?

They need positive adult role models somewhere. I've seen kids turn it around because an adult took some time to sit with them, discuss what was wrong, and find some options to help better their situations.

Educators can help fill the void of whatever they're missing.

Back to the thread of declining student resilience: the student in the SC classroom could possibly become one of the most resilient college students with some support, nurturing and care. It 's possible that if she makes it to college, she will have overcome so much adversity that she may be a very successful college student. If we never even try, all is lost for her anyway and we end up paying for her one way or the other.

Personally, I prefer to spend the time and money in prevention.

I agree 100%. and yes, a few kids get helped by teachers as role models. But kids with role models at home don't need role models in school. Society is screwed. It's amazing how the minority can bring down the majority. (and that's not talking race, that's talking plain old "kids need role models at home")

Maybe I wasn't clear when I shared that a 16 year old, most 16 year olds, has a unrealistic view about risks. I thought I gave examples of kids drinking too much and other kids driving too fast.

It's also possible that I stated that her behaviors were probably a result of her conditions, meaning nobody taught her how to sit politely when angry and frustrated.

I think those ideas are pretty close to what others have posted. I also think I was pretty firm in stating that those conditions were not an excuse.

I also stated that I wasn't sure if the officer, remember him? the other person in this conflict?, was part of school security or was called in. And I was pretty sure that I said that the other people in the class looked like they weren't very surprised by what was going on.

I then went into a self serving monologue about all the training I'm required to participate in where I work so that I can be part of a safe restraint, a restraint that should only happen when someone's safety is threatened.

Then I kind of wrapped it up with statements about the lack of training for that situation the officer showed and finally attempted wit by ending with, "You can't fix stupid with stupid".

Even if all of that's wasn't written well enough to understand, it was written well enough to show both sides were part of the conflict.

The post you quoted and are apparently wondering if I am some how naïve about the causes of bad behavior, in spite of the fact that that is exactly the requirement for me to do my job, stemmed from a question I posted about the trend on this thread of focusing on settling the cause of this conflict on the girl's behaviors.

The reason I asked that question was because it seemed there were no questions or statements as to what would cause this officer to behave the way he did.

Apparently some are assuming this girl behaved this way so that she would become rich from a law suit.

Hmmmmmm........interesting!

Any questions for them?

I believe teachers should be able to apply positive reinforcement.

He made a mistake, she made multiple mistakes. He'll be fired and disgraced, she'll be made a martyr and will likely become a millionaire...

Now, let's go back to complaining about why kids don't respect authority and what we should blame that on.

They could if they weren't outnumbered 50-1. An educators job is to TEACH and every teacher I know (and it's a lot) is willing to give some of their time to help and advise and mentor and do what they can for kids. But they cannot be expected to "fill the void of whatever they're missing".. THAT would primarily be the parents job, the families job, the communities job. If more people would quit whining about it, quit blaming "the system" and get involved, things might change... but whining and saying it's somebody else's job is a whole lot easier.

I'm on board with corporal punishment but only by parent or legal guardian. I got whipped by the principal after the principal's son got his friends to lie about me to get me in trouble. My Dad has gone after me with belts and hands and various other implements but nothing hurt as bad as that principal did whipping me because he thought I said his boy did XYZ. Part of it I'm sure was using a paddle with holes and leather straps, but I think the principals feelings had something to do with it also.

Having the school provide the spankings is just absolving the parents of responsibility so they can be 'best buddies' to their children. As someone who has had long lasting effects from this event (hey, I'm atheist now!) I feel very strongly about this subject.

Nnn

My ideas of prevention/intervention are early intervention in the family prior to the demise of children. Holding parents to some accountable standards as we do pet owners would be a nice start. When issues arise in school, they must immediately be addressed, discussed and dealt with. Problem is, parents complain, threaten law suits through advocates and everyone runs like a puppy with their tail between their legs. If you work in this environment, you understand this.

Another intervention/prevention iidea would be to assign parent mentors for struggling families. BBS does this for children but there is little support for parents. In many instances,,if parents desire help, they must be the one to reachmout. Reality is, many don't care, are intimidated by the system or lack necessary education to advocate for themselves and their children. But, when there is the possibility of money, suddenly they come alive and are motivated to the max. Sad but true.

Another idea would be alternative education for students with severe anger issues. You, most likely, work within one of these programs given the job description you offered.

Another prevention/intervention idea would be to stop government dependence by placing restrictive limitations on the use of government programs that create supressed and dependent constituents......just what our government wants. Then they control!!!!!

Many of these intervention/prevention ideas are currently in place. However, they must begin very early in a child's life for maximum effectiveness. Even then, there must be an intrinsic motivator for success.

You know as well as I do, as a society we can try, and use the most innovative and effective techniques and we still fail the child. Just happens.

I have known and observed many, many friends, students, children and others overcome emotional struggles to become very successful productive adults. To simply conclude that emotional struggles such as loss of a parent (even though that one is very tough) or the thought that the future is pretty shi**y will result in this type of behavior is misguided. Most likely, the problem is the demise of her family, home environment, lack of care and nurturing and dependency on the government.



As I have stated before in these threads, it takes way more than a sperm and egg to come together to create " parents". Our government, long ago, created a system of rewards for having unwanted kids and getting money. Big mistake! I am aware this has been modified and adjusted as of late but we continue to see misuse of these programs as a way of life rather than a stepping stone.

With candidates pushing free college education, it will be possible for many students, who otherwise would have no opportunity, to attend college. Then we will be blaming the colleges for their lack of preparation and student failure, just as we now blame the public schools.

It appears we are on the same page with many issues here. Simply stated, I believe we must address the problems as stated above and stop the blame game.

As far as the resource officer, this is probably not the first time he has addressed this issue with this student. I do not believe anyone in this thread has claimed appropriate behavior on his part. Yes, he is the other side of the equation. Society appears to be addressing this issue even though their tactics leave much to be desired. Again, a symptom of the problem of respect.

I sure hope you noticed the two most imperative words in my post: MUTUAL RESPECT. This is one thing so obviously lacking in our society!

On, and by the way, if I was privy to this students records and enlightened you as you requested, that would be in violation of FERPA and HIPPA. C'mon, you should know this.

Summation, we spend way to much time in this country fighting the symptoms and not addressing the real issue at the core: big government and respect.

Carry on dawg bro!

I got paddled twice in high school, I deserved both of them. The fear of the paddle was always far worse than the paddle itself.



Then those kids aren't being disciplined at home anyway and there isn't much you can do about it. If I got in trouble in school, up to and including getting paddled, that was just step 1 in the process. My parents knew I was in trouble before I ever got home. I usually didn't get paddled again at home, but I got further discipline.

Kids have figured out that the school is basically powerless to punish them. You screw up, you get a good stern talking to... you screw up too much you get detention, big deal, I just won't go... you don't go you get suspended, Yea a couple days off...

Because the reverse of what you said above is what we have now. The school has deferred all meaningful punishment to the parents and the parents aren't doing it, so the schools are filled with kids who don't listen and don't fear being disciplined at school... the schools hands are tied.

Well at least we agree with spanking at home lol. But it looks like neither one of us will change our minds about sparking at school.

I agree with the theory of spanking in school.. but in practicality, there are a lot of loose canon's out there and I'm not 100% sure I want them spanking my child either. I grew up in a small town where everybody knew everybody, my administrators and my parents were friends, there was a level of trust... I can see why people don't want administrators they don't know spanking their children.

DC, you are absolutely correct. Schools are scapegoats for lazy and inadequate parenting. But, parents pay in the end emotionally so I guess if that is what they wish, so be it.

Nurse, counselor, teacher, mother, father, nutritionist, santa claus and friend are just a few of the hats worn every single day by teachers in this country. The expectation for actual educator and actual teaching to occur is now lower and lower on the list than ever before.

The problem is that everybody pays. The other kids pay, the ones that actually want to learn.

I had a teacher tell me just a couple years ago that he spends 80% of his time dealing with the bottom 10% of his kids, trying to drag them along because they aren't getting any help or support at home, trying to get them to behave because they evidently aren't taught any discipline at home, trying to get them to pay attention because they just don't seem to care... meanwhile, the upper half of his kids are held back by these, as he called them, "anchor kids". They drag the whole class down and prevent it from moving forward. He can't ship them out to a lesser class because that might hurt their self-esteem to be put in the "slow class" or the "difficult class"... he can't discipline them because the kids don't care and the parents either don't care or won't support the discipline...

I agree that no child should literally be left behind... but no child should be holding a group of other kids back either...

Oh I would either want two other people there to witness it OR have them video tape it to make sure there is no abuse.

The

Good point!

I had a witness to my paddling in school! But it was the principals wife. Ya know, the same guy who did the paddling. Not very effective

I was a straight A student until that event. My grades went down in the 2 years following until I left the school. Then they went back to A's. I wasn't concerned with my school work anymore. I just didn't want to get in trouble. We had kids paddled for chewing gum. We had kids paddled because their parents couldn't afford belts for their pants, but some of their pants had belt loops. Because same parents couldn't afford other pants. If this all sounds normal to you then I don't know what to say...

Definitely caught me on the HIPPA. But then again I didn't expect that you were going to provide that info.

I agree we're on the same page in so far as we see a problem and agree there's prevention that could help.

I think we disagree about the disabling effect of govt support or the degree of abuse of it and I seriously doubt we will ever agree on that, but that's OK.

I disagree that parents have less accountability than pet owners, especially considering how parents get in trouble for letting their kids play outside without direct supervision.

There are quite a few of our kids who are part of the county system because their parents have been held accountable. I realize the biggest concern is that accountability should be happening before it gets to that point, but we're talking about an established system where people who have already lost resources and aren't really able to acquire what they need are blamed for their lack of success.

I'm not saying the system is an excuse for every single family in poverty, but if you're going to consider prevention then it's necessary to be holistic. At this point every part of many of these kid's environment contributes to success or failure.

Do a functional behavior analysis between urban and suburban and there'll be a huge difference in priorities; Success v. food and shelter. Is it just coincidence that suburb kids have better grades? Do we really want to assume people in poverty don't want the skills to succeed?

Poverty IS a symptom of a society that's unbalanced in respect to accessibility. Behavior problems ARE a symptom of poverty.

One of the most interesting studies found that when kids are suspended they usually find themselves on a path of failure and the majority of these students are minorities. I don't think that's a coincidence and I don't think these kids decide they would be happy on welfare. One reason I doubt it is because some schools discontinued suspensions, established alternative environments within the building and the majority of these students started showing successful behaviors.

If you consider this research and then think about the overall causes of learning failure in children it's apparent that it goes beyond big government, lack of accountability and welfare.

You might want to consider the size of the government that continually refused to raise the minimum wage during a period of record profits in companies that included large ones who took government money.

And maybe when considering that it would be easier to understand that these kids and their families are less willing to quietly participate in a lose/lose system that not only contributes to their inability to succeed, but also blames them for being responsible for their own failure.

Now how about we consider the reasons the officer didn't understand when and how to restrain.

Is it because he relies on a guaranteed paycheck regardless of his behavior?