DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Continuity---Take Two

Ha! My "blind squirrel" moment.

I will expand though as it's something I've been thinking about recently.
Of all the likely change scenarios if there is to be change, I think Farmer getting the shepherds crook is probably the most obvious. If it is on the cards I've been playing out timings. Would it be better to cut bait now and give a replacement as much time as possible to assemble a staff and prep for offseason? Reason being, every FO reboot we've had, it's been a short turnaround and we've reaped FA and Draft disasters.
The Bengals guy or others. If he sat at Farmers knee in an assistant role for grooming,

1 Farmer knows this is the heir apparent, how receptive would or could he be to bed in his own replacement
2 Given Farmers tenure, what would the noob learn anyways?

If it's the guy, give him the keys to the kingdom, bring in a strong, experienced support staff and let it play out and don't wait until the seasons end to make the move if it's on the cards anyways. Find the right guy, move quick and start prepping. It's not as if the GM is having much to do on game days now is it? (And besides, he already missed a quarter of a season already and folks said "Farmer who?"

If I had to hazard a guess as to what will actually happen it would be that Farmer stays and Pettine gets shown the door. Most may not like that outcome but I think it is the most likely.

Haslam does not seem to me to be the kind of guy that will sit idly by after two bad seasons in a row by the same coach. He talks of emulating teams like Pittsburgh and NE but his actions are more like Dan Snyder. If the team goes 5-11 or worse, and c'mon, no one thinks they'll be better than that, JH will do something. I'd bet on it.

I think that Farmer has his ear. Or at least enough of it to tell him the tried and true GM excuse, "Hey, Mike's a good guy, but he's not MY guy and I can't be held accountable for HIS record. I need to pick my own Head Coach". I think that since Jimmy doesn't really want to blow everything up he'll go for a partial "fix".

Is this the right thing to do? Maybe not, but let's be honest, even the most ardent Pettine supporters have to admit this team stinks and Mike shares a good amount of the blame for that.

Does this let Farmer off the hook? Nope. He's screwed the pooch with a lot of his moves. But I think, in Jimmy's eyes, his sins are less visible to the naked eye than Pettine's. It would also ramp up the pressure on Farmer many times over what it is now. Once Ray has his coach behind the wheel there will be no more excuses available. Fish or cut bait in 2016.

If this is what happens will we finally get what we've all been waiting for...a winner? Who knows? But we're not getting a winner with this organization as it's presently constituted so something has to happen. Doesn't it......?

Haslem remembers the conditions that existed when both Farmer and Pettine came into their current job titles. When he hired them, all hell had broken loose.

When much better guys become available then...

Haslem knows he has to make some moves. Things are sliding.

The big problem for me is that Haslem has been sold a bill of goods on being able to bring in top coaches on two different occasions, and both turned into complete disasters. If top guys are out there, can Jimmy bag one? Saban, Harbaugh, Gase, McDaniels... so far the answer is no.

Banner is the only top guy Jimmy has brought in. And, his standing is dubious at best. He's the guy who promised Jimmy those coaches and didn't deliver.

Things are a hot mess.

Pettine has got to amp up his game. Bigtime. Camp Cupcake is bitin him in the *#%

We don't know what at all. I'm sure there are teams that had softer camps than us that are doing quite well. If we were winning we would be saying things like, "Wow, our guys are so fresh because they didn't have to work hard during training camp."



Haslam has no credibility. Unfortunately, if he fires everyone, that means he will no be able to hire good people. In order to hire good people, he will probably need to hire somebody who does have credibility and allow that person to make decisions. I don't know who that person is, but they will definitely be well paid.

The rumor that has been out there that makes quite a bit of sense is the Peyton Manning thing. Hire him for big money, have him hire a GM, and have Manning and the GM he hires hire a coach.

(Voice in the back row): Hello! My name is Mike Holmgren and...

I don't think Mike Holmgren is a smart person (or he is a very smart person, depends on how you look at it). But I do think he is smart enough to at least pretend his name is Hike Molmgren and shave his mustache off.

Also, if Banner is to be believed (also another stretch), then Haslam is a moron. So there is a real possibility that Hike Molmgren has a chance.

Nice take...

This is why I love the board at times. You brought up a point I hadn't considered. Thanks.

I don't think that is how it is going to play out, but man, that was excellent logic.

Kudos to you!!!!

This is another good post. I don't know if any of it is true, but I have been getting the same feeling, too.

I think Farmer has covered for Haslam at times. I think he is closer to Haslam than Pet is. I think he is already throwing Pet under the bus by saying we should have won games we lost.

I will tell you this..............if they fire Pet and keep Farmer, it might be enough to finally throw me over the edge.

Look at the bright side.......many of you will be happy about that.

What? Are there rumors of bring Holmgren back? Seriously? Or am I misreading what you are saying?

They aren't serious.

Oh. LOL...............thanks.

Simply trying to inject a touch of humor...

If Jimmy is planning on making a move, he is in a pickle.

The Giants job is open. Coaches consider this a prime job.

Miami job is open.

Saints job could be open.

Andrew Lucks coach job could be open.

Something like the Philadelphia or Kansas City job could open up.

With the condition we are in that isn't a good start to next offseason.

Money talks. There is no cap limit on front office and coaching staff. There are a couple good coaches that probably won't be on any lists as they haven't shown interest in the past. Gruden, Cowher, Billick, etc. Offer Ozzy a President of Football Operations chair and a huge raise and he might be tempted. Make him an offer he can't refuse.... 20 million a year and the President title. Might work. If not find the best GM you can and offer him a better title and more money.
Find the Head Coach you really want, be it Cowher, Gruden or someone else.... and then don't let them say no. Offer whatever it takes to make him your next Coach.

Continuity is only a good thing when you have the right people in place. You think Detroit thought continuity was great during Matt Millens reign? We all hoped and prayed that Farmer and Pettine were the right guys. It's becoming vividly eveident that isn't the case. I keep waiting for Pettine to get PISSED OFF that the team is so underwhelming. To do SOMETHING to light a fire under this team. Not happening.

If they keep Farmer I'll be very tempted to jump ship too. Both Pettine and Farmer have shown a stunning lack of ability so far. Both are equally to blame for this charade of a season. Hell Farmer maybe more so... he did run Shanahan off. He has shown a HUGE ego and a stubborn streak that has resulted in some pretty bad drafts. I really do hate to say this yet again, but it's starting to become clear that both Farmer and Pettine need to go. Clean house and here we go yet again..... I would laugh my ass off if we hired Kyle Shanahan as our next HC. He could laugh at Farmer as he's cleaning out his office..... not that it would happen but it would be hilarious....

[quote][I would laugh my ass off if we hired Kyle Shanahan as our next HC. /quote]

Hmmmmm.............I never even thought of that. I would be good w/that move. I think the guy is a genius in regards to offensive football.

Every team had "cupcake" camps, because that's all they're allowed to have due to the new CBA. They are only allowed so many full pads practices, a very limited number of full contact practices, and so on. Further, the Browns had all kinds of soft tissue injuries this preseason, with strains, sprains, and muscle pulls. I recall the Browns struggling to find enough DBs at one point.

Then the regular season started, and the parade of injuries, especially on defense, hit. We have lost starters and key reserves (for extended games) such as Haden, Williams, Gipson, Des Bryant, and Robertson. That is 5 starters/key substitutes who have lost considerable time this season. That's a lot of key injuries. While i hate to use injuries as an excuse, that is a list of some rather key guys.

J/c

Adding musings to my earlier thoughts. The wild card. Peyton Manning. GM or President?

How would you feel if they fire Farmer and keep Pet?
If they keep both?
If they fire both?

Rank those 4 scenarios in order of preference.

My preference would be

1 - Fire Farmer, keep Pet
2 - Fire them both
3 - Keep them both
4 - Fire Pet, keep Farmer

It's no coincidence that my top two include firing Farmer. I don't see how this team can turn around with Farmer at the helm. I like PEt. Not sure he is the answer but he isn't the main probalem.

A head coach must obviously be much more than an X's and O's guy. From the little I know, he lacks interpersonal skills. And a first time HC? IIRC, I thought that you were opposed to that. There is little doubt that he has an above average offensive mind, but can he manage, organize, communicate, etc. From what we've seen of him to date, there are many questions to be asked...

To move Pettine after two losing seasons is like Dan Snyder and not like the Rooneys.

Pittsburgh gives things time to develop.

Can you imagine what it would have been like with all the media experts out there in 1969 and 1970 for Chuck Noll...LOL He'd be fried and tied....LOL

That is a good question. I have the first and fourth choices down, but I'm not sure about the second and third.

1. Fire Farmer, keep Pet. We can't afford to continue blowing draft picks and replacing solid young talent w/older guys in free agency. This would also allow us to maintain some sense of continuity by sticking w/the coaching staff. The players really don't interact much w/the GM anyway.

4. Fire Pet, keep Farmer. If they do this, it might be the final straw for me as a fan.

I really don't know about 2 and 3. There is no way I want to trust Farmer w/another draft and FA period. Heck, he would probably let Gipson walk and bring back Ed Reed.

However, I really, really don't want to blow this thing up again. I do believe in continuity. I just don't think the GM influences continuity all that much. They aren't in the locker room or on the practice field.

What I would like is for us to bring in a GM who is willing to work with Pet.

There would only be one other option for me and that is to bring in Nick Saban. He probably would not come here because he has it made at Alabama, but he did coach here and giving him full control might entice him to accept a tremendous challenge. I know a lot of people can't stand the guy, but I think he is the type of guy that this franchise needs. The bad thing is..........most of you would hate him because he would certainly try to change the culture. People hated Mangini and Banner for that reason and they'll hate Saban, too.

There really are never any easy answers w/the Browns, are there?

No worries. I may have misread what you were saying.

I think his "interpersonal skills" have been greatly exaggerated by people trying to justify why we wouldn't miss him.

GC

The best thing that Haslam as owner of the Browns can do, to stabilize the situation, is commit to both Banner and Farmer, for the next few years.

Because there isn't anybody that has options that want to come to the Browns, in current form, that they're going to be able to get that will do a better job.

And Most importantly because one of the ones they wanted to get was Marc Trestman, and he has ruined the Bears.

As I like Pettine. And I dislike Farmer. As guys in their positions,

I think the ONLY WAY this team is ever going to get to winning ways, is to KEEP the team together.

And the only way to Keep the team together is to keep the Authors of the Roster, and the Authors of the gameplans and functions, like using a 4-3 vs a 3-4, TOGETHER, for at least longer than they currently have.

It's the only way.

You Gotta keep the team together.

----------

Anyone who's been a Browns fan for more than 20 years has got to start to recognize this.

And it would be a different situation if the current group wasn't making progress toward building a better team. I'll point to.
The current roster is getting a mix of veterans and young players who have futures that can go either way, it's up to the players and their opportunities, they have a chance to develop.
And at least Pettine seems commited to going for it, in situations that appear like settling for a field goal down 12 points with less than 4 minutes to play.

If you Haslam, keep this Coaching staff, and GM together, through this offseason, and commit to them.

You will hear the moans and groans, through the growing pains, all offseason, but next year 2016 will bring a better chance to succeed going forward.

THAN BLOWING IT ALL UP AGAIN! I think we've tried that before with similar results.

Similar results = opening 2-5 for how many years since 1999.

What? LOL

What talent ??

I am not so sure Chuck Noll is a good comparison. His record improved each of his first three seasons. So far the Browns have regressed from last season. If it continues to get to worse is Pettine really the coach we need here? There is still time for the team to show improvement, and if it does both Pettine and Farmer will be back. If the season continues in this craptastic way, both should go. Continuity only works if the right people are here.

I think you set your clock back too far.

I'm much more apt to give a coach more time than a GM, good players can make a coaches job easier and make him look better, help buy him time to figure it out. Farmer is one of the worst GM's to ever do it. I think regardless of what happens with the coaching staff, Farmer is gone, I think O'neil is gone too. I think Pettine will get the benefit of the doubt, even though I'm not sold on him and I think his player development skills aren't even close to be NFL level. But I'd be more willing to give him more time than Farmer, we simply need better players.

Why do you want to give Pettine the ability to learn OTJ but not Farmer and Manziel? Isn't that a double standard mac?

jc...

I'm pretty sure Pettine will get fired before Farmer.

Especially if any if the following is true:

--Pettine wanted Gilbert.
--Pettine wanted Whitner.
--Pettine was fine with letting Skrine walk.
--Haslam wanted Manziel.
--We have a double digit losing season.
--Run defense finishes 32nd and Pettine refuses to replace O'Neil.
--Manziel comes in, doesn't wet the bed, and plays reasonably well.

Although the first three are GM moves, Farmer can write them off as trying to make his coach happy. The last three are highly likely and Pettine has to own those. He has to explain them to Haslam. The fourth one, well it is what it is.

So if I had to make a prediction, Pettine goes before Farmer.

Both are really hard to root for. And in the absence of having any kind of long-term plan in place for anything it appears, I actually don't even care anymore. There's not much reason to watch the product these guys put on the field. They are both in over their heads and absent any kind of football person coming in and overseeing these two, it's hard to predict if they will actually get better.

That sound you just heard was the king of continuity taking a step off the train. I'm not completely off, just a bit apathetic at the moment. Keep them, blow it up. I pretty much have no hope for the future either way.

+1

yeah thats so right. how many Browns play like a "Patriot"?
how many Browns could start for the Pats?
Ive all along no one in a Browns uni is afraid of losing their job.
Its that kind of culture they have created their.
2-5 team and theirs a sense of entitlement.
go figure.

He's the perfect comparison.. First time HC, Team void of talent, Pettine's first year was a big improvement from a number of the years before. This year isn't done yet so you can't begin to make the claim that he's not the same as Noll until his record is worse that last year.

As things stand right now, it kinda looks like it could be, but we're not done yet so let's hold off until the end of the year.

Remember something else, in his first couple of years, look who the Steelers drafted... Mean Joe Green, Terry Bradshaw to name two. Corner stones of thier respective units.

What has Farmer provided Pettine with again?