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Originally Posted By: THROW LONG
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The best thing that Haslam as owner of the Browns can do, to stabilize the situation, is commit to both Banner and Farmer, for the next few years.


I'm guessing you meant Pettine and not Banner.

I get the value of continuity, especially since we have not had any in regards to the front office and coaching staff.

But I think that continuity just for the sake of continuity is not going to help things at all. Keeping someone (I'll say Farmer) just because we don't want to change, is not wise. If they feel he is the answer at GM, then keep him. Personally, I have no faith in him and would rather find an upgrade.

If they feel he is the answer ... I would like to know the question.

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Originally Posted By: waterdawg
What talent ??

I reread what I wrote to see where I mentioned talent? Maybe I put it between the lines.

This roster has a boatload of young players like Malcolm Johnson, Randall Telfour, Ifo Ekpre Oloumu, not to mention,Nate Orchard, Xavier Cooper, and Duke Johnson.

and aside from Duke Johnson, we haven't even seen what most of them can do yet!

This roster has a boatload of veteran players like, Karlos Dansby, Paul Kruger, Dwayne Bowe, Randy Starks, Robert Turbin, and Donte Whitner.

And they have a core group of homegrown players like Armonty Bryant, Bademosi, Benjamin, Schwartz, Mingo, Kirksey, Craig Robertson, and Bitonio.

It's a mix of youth and veterans that hasn't always been there, and I think the current situation needs to be allowed more time to really show what can become of it.

And I think they should try to get Malcolm Johnson more involved, but that's jut my opinion.


Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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my god. you are insane!!!! rofl rofl rofl


being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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Originally Posted By: CapCity Dawg
(I'll say Farmer) If they feel he is the answer at GM, then keep him. Personally, I have no faith in him and would rather find an upgrade.

If they feel he is the answer ... I would like to know the question.
The question is.

Who has a plan for Ifo, Ekpre Olumu, and who is going to give Randall Telfour a chance to develop into a top tight end in this league. Who brought Robert Turbin to the Browns and cut an out of shape Terrance West. (Ok. that was running backs coach Will Montgomery's influence?)
He did make one mistake, in my opinion, He didn't hang on to Terrelle Pryor and Cut Taylor Gabriel.

He's going to keep this roster together vs a whole new shuffle at every position like always happens with a new GM.

The only thing I'd blow up is the offensive line. I'd move every one of them, I'd even put Thomas at right tackle if it would get them to do better as a group.
As it is now the O-line needs work.

He's got 7 guys protected on injury lists not including Josh Gordon.
Perhaps you want to go back to the guys who traded 4th round picks for 3rd round picks a year later and drafted guys out of Chadron St.
Or go back to the guys who brought in 7 Jet's backup players in a trade for top draft picks. IIRC.

Grass is always greener if you fire the Coach and GM?
Gimme a break.


Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Everyone take a look at the Bengals. Remember Marvin Lewis's first 4 or 5 seasons? Not to good were they but they stuck with him and with some good picks it finally turned around. I know what the Bengals recent playoff record is but I would take what they have over what we have in a heartbeat. How about you other posters?

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Originally Posted By: Homewood Dog
Everyone take a look at the Bengals. Remember Marvin Lewis's first 4 or 5 seasons? Not to good were they but they stuck with him and with some good picks it finally turned around. I know what the Bengals recent playoff record is but I would take what they have over what we have in a heartbeat. How about you other posters?


Quote:


Team Year Regular Season Post Season
Won Lost Ties Win % Finish Won Lost Win % Result
CIN 2003 8 8 0 .500 2nd in AFC North - - - -
CIN 2004 8 8 0 .500 3rd in AFC North - - - -
CIN 2005 11 5 0 .688 1st in AFC North 0 1 .000 Lost to Pittsburgh Steelers in AFC Wild Card Game.
CIN 2006 8 8 0 .500 2nd in AFC North - - - -
CIN 2007 7 9 0 .438 3rd in AFC North - - - -
CIN 2008 4 11 1 .281 3rd in AFC North - - - -
CIN 2009 10 6 0 .625 1st in AFC North 0 1 .000 Lost to New York Jets in AFC Wild Card Game.
CIN 2010 4 12 0 .250 4th in AFC North - - - -
CIN 2011 9 7 0 .563 3rd in AFC North 0 1 .000 Lost to Houston Texans in AFC Wild Card Game.
CIN 2012 10 6 0 .625 2nd in AFC North 0 1 .000 Lost to Houston Texans in AFC Wild Card Game.
CIN 2013 11 5 0 .688 1st in AFC North 0 1 .000 Lost to San Diego Chargers in AFC Wild Card Game.
CIN 2014 10 5 1 .656 2nd in AFC North 0 1 .000 Lost to Indianapolis Colts in AFC Wild Card Game.
CIN 2015 6 0 0 1.000 1st in AFC North - - - -
Total[12] 106 90 2 .540 0 6 .000



Up and down with the .500 mark until Dalton arrived in 2011. maybe there is some validity to coaching stability and QB commitment? thumbsup


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I respect all opinions, but you put a lot of "ifs" in there to keep Farmer and fire Pet.

Why?

What the hell has Farmer done to earn your trust?

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So assuming everyone, or someone gets fired..

How long do we give the next people? 9 games to build a winner?

I'm not saying this as a reason to keep these guys, I'm seriously asking how long people should be given..

Or are we just Hanna keep swapping people out every other season until we get "lucky" enough to find someone that wins?


Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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I am into continuity. I have stated that several times.

I am all for keeping Pet.

I do not think that replacing the GM is affecting continuity. Do you? Tell me, how much interaction do you think there is between Farmer and the players? I bet it is close to NILL!

I am all for giving Pet 4-5 years. That is continuity.

I just don't think we can afford to blow so many personnel decisions like we have been doing.

Our drafts have outright sucked under Farmer.

People say Williams is better than Skrine. That is debatable, but man, Skrine is way younger than Williams.

We replace a younger Sheard w/an older Starks.

We don't want to give a young stud like Gipson money, but we give an older Bowe a huge contract.

We give a 36 year old qb big money.

We lose our best WR to a drug suspension and pass on several very good WRs and draft a CB who really doesn't like football.

We pass on guys like Teddy and Carr and draft Manziel, who can't find the field on a 2 and 5 team.

We run our best coach out of town due to interference from Farmer and his group.

We text plays to the coaches.

Our GM is suspended by the league for violating team rules.

I don't think it is even debatable. Farmer needs to go. However, I think he is a suck a$$ and it will probably be Pet that gets blamed for Farmer's mess.

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I feel like, if we were going to make a GM change, we would have already..

And really, who are we going to get that isn't another "learning on the job" rookie GM?

Again, I'm not trying to argue for keeping Farmer, I just don't know what any other options are, some seem to be ok with "any other option"


Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Okay. Like I said earlier. I welcome all opinions about what we should do.

The thread has gotten out of hand w/the usual BS responses, but it's been pretty good overall. I respect your opinion, even though I don't agree w/it.

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Agreed Vers. Continuity is on the field with the coaching staff and a nucleus of players (good ones). The coaching gaffes can be fixed (hopefully). You MUST have a guy who can evaluate and bring in talent. Clearly, Farmer is NOT that guy. Having said this, the Browns need a guy to oversee both of these guys and who will establish a plan with a vision for the direction of the team. Currently, that is also absent in Berea.


After 55 years, I'm walking away from this dumpster fire. Good luck to everyone who continues to hang on. You'll need it.
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I don't think you can bring in a guy now and have him oversee the people already here..

Anyone that high up is going to want their own people..

Or you end up with a Holmgren/Mangini situation..


Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Originally Posted By: Homewood Dog
Everyone take a look at the Bengals. Remember Marvin Lewis's first 4 or 5 seasons? Not to good were they but they stuck with him and with some good picks it finally turned around. I know what the Bengals recent playoff record is but I would take what they have over what we have in a heartbeat. How about you other posters?


I don't know about you, but I would take what Marvin Lewis did in his first four seasons in a second. 8-8, 8-8, 11-5, and 8-8. Now he has three sub .500 seasons in his time in Cincy, but overall it is a lot better than anything we habe had.

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Originally Posted By: Damanshot
Originally Posted By: sham63
Originally Posted By: Damanshot
Quote:
He talks of emulating teams like Pittsburgh and NE but his actions are more like Dan Snyder.


To move Pettine after two losing seasons is like Dan Snyder and not like the Rooneys.

Pittsburgh gives things time to develop.

Can you imagine what it would have been like with all the media experts out there in 1969 and 1970 for Chuck Noll...LOL He'd be fried and tied....LOL



I am not so sure Chuck Noll is a good comparison. His record improved each of his first three seasons. So far the Browns have regressed from last season. If it continues to get to worse is Pettine really the coach we need here? There is still time for the team to show improvement, and if it does both Pettine and Farmer will be back. If the season continues in this craptastic way, both should go. Continuity only works if the right people are here.


He's the perfect comparison.. First time HC, Team void of talent, Pettine's first year was a big improvement from a number of the years before. This year isn't done yet so you can't begin to make the claim that he's not the same as Noll until his record is worse that last year.

As things stand right now, it kinda looks like it could be, but we're not done yet so let's hold off until the end of the year.

Remember something else, in his first couple of years, look who the Steelers drafted... Mean Joe Green, Terry Bradshaw to name two. Corner stones of thier respective units.

What has Farmer provided Pettine with again?


Overall the record was better, but the way the team finished was not. The comparison is not valid unless the team shows improvement. It is about showing improvement and not regressing. I don't expect a playoff year, just that the team is getting better. Right now it is not looking like it with the bad defense, penalties, and lack of run game. Like I said there is still time to show improvement, but time is running out on the season.

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Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
I respect all opinions, but you put a lot of "ifs" in there to keep Farmer and fire Pet.

Why?

What the hell has Farmer done to earn your trust?


Did you actually read my post? It doesn't sound like you did.

I was making a prediction on who would get fired if it was one of the two, not supporting one over the other. Get over your hate for Farmer and actual read what is being posted.

I personally think they are both awful at the moment.

I also didn't want to believe this, but I think there is a divide between Pett and Farmer and they both will be vying for daddy's ear. I think Farmer has Haslam's ear more than Pett which is why Pett will be gone before him, IMO.

I think there is a divide based on recent comments made by both men. Farmer stating in public that there are games we lost but should have won and Pettine stating that his 'QB situation makes him want to cry' on an interview in Sirius radio...I'm paraphrasing but it was something like 'I have to laugh to keep from crying.'

These guys both know that they suck and the tug of war to keep from getting fired will intensify each week.

Farmer is downright awful. But so is Pettine. Neither guy has a clue.

I have zero hope for the future.


LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Originally Posted By: ThatGuy
I feel like, if we were going to make a GM change, we would have already..

And really, who are we going to get that isn't another "learning on the job" rookie GM?

Again, I'm not trying to argue for keeping Farmer, I just don't know what any other options are, some seem to be ok with "any other option"


I disagree, I don't think if the plan is to dump Farmer that we would already have. Remember, part of rebuilding this franchise making sure it comes across as a professional organization.

By the time Textgate became an official investigation and the league stopped dragging its foot, we were too close to Draft time to can him.

Then the League hits him with the 4 game suspension. Professionally speaking how good do we look firing him at that point?

For that matter, how good do we look firing the guy the Monday he returns to work from that suspension?

At best it just would have looked weird. Up to this point the best time to can him was immediately after last season, but there really wasn't a good reason to.

I think at minimum Farmer gets the remainder of this season. Like Vers mentioned, how much contact with the players does he really have? Once the Trade Deadline is over, there isn't a whole lot for Farmer to do that will effect the rest of this season. Keeping him on board until the end of the season in of itself doesn't set us back, but the appearance of continuity IMO would be a gain for the organization and might be worth it.


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If Browns blow tough 3-game stretch, could heads roll after season? 'This is a big juncture' says Mike Pettine

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The 2-5 Browns have reached a pivotal point in their season, and if they stumble through this grueling stretch, will Browns owner Jimmy Haslam renege on his training camp promise not to blow things up?

It's hard to believe he won't consider at least some big changes if the Browns lose their next three games to land at 2-8 heading into the bye week.

"We've battled in our games,'' said coach Mike Pettine. "You don't see our guys quitting, and that's a positive sign, but still we're looking for the result to win. That's what this business – as I've said all along – it's a bottom line business.

"You're either passing or you're failing. This is a big juncture for us. We're focused on Arizona but also know what immediately sits on the other side, essentially two games in five days."

After Sunday's game against the 5-2 Cardinals, the Browns travel to Cincinnati Thursday night to face the 6-0 Bengals on NFL Network. That's two games in five days against clubs with a combined 11-2 record. After that, they head to Pittsburgh to face the 3-3 Steelers, who are getting Ben Roethlisberger back this week.

That's a 15-5 mark for their next three opponents. Considering that the Browns have gone 2-5 against foes with a combined record of 20-24, the outlook looks bleak unless the Browns find a way to right the ship.

"Internally, you can see positives, but nobody on the outside wants to see 'Hey, we lost but these are the positives that we're taking from it,''' said Pettine. "We all know what we're getting paid for and that's to win football games."

In addition to the upcoming trio of stellar foes, the Browns play four of their next five in the division: at Cincinnati and Pittsburgh and then home against the Ravens and Bengals. The 1-6 Ravens were banged up when they lost to the Browns in week five and will be a better football team when they come to town Nov. 30th.

"We're coming up on a lot of division games,'' said safety Tashaun Gipson, who returns Sunday after missing three games with a sprained ankle. "Specifically right now, every game is counting for two now in our eyes, so we know how important it is.''

Like everyone else on the team, Gipson is surprised that the Browns are 2-5 after the "easy'' part of their schedule. The final eight games feature five in the AFC North.

"In these next two weeks, we can turn this thing around, head with some momentum into Pittsburgh game and who knows what can happen from there?'' said Gipson. "We definitely have time. I don't think guys in this locker room are holding their head down low.''

Cornerback Joe Haden, who's missed three of the last four games with injuries -- a concussion, broken finger and rib contusion -- believes the Browns can salvage the season.

"It's so easy,'' said Haden. "It's just a play or two going in our favor instead of bouncing the ball the other way, and I think we still have the people in here, people on the team (to do it).

"We still have a lot of division games ahead of us. We still have everything we want in front of us, so I think our attitude with the team is still: 'We've got to go out there. We have to win the next game.'''

Haslam based his "status quo'' promise on the fact the Browns improved from 4-12 in his first full year to 7-9 last season. But if the team regresses?

"I can assure you nobody in this building is happy winning seven games, but at the same time, we are realistic that it takes time to build a good football team,'' he said in August.

He also made his declaration when the Browns were still optimistic that 2014 first round picks Johnny Manziel and Justin Gilbert would live up to their draft status. Instead, neither is starting midway through the season, and both have been involved in embarassing off-the-field incidents.

Gilbert isn't playing on defense at all and if he can't get significant playing time by the end of the year, he's well on his way to being a bust. The Browns still believe Manziel can play, but he's currently under NFL review for a possible domestic incident.

Even if Manziel escapes discipline, he admitted to drinking, which can't be good for a player who spent 10 weeks in an addiction treatment center in the offseason. ESPN analyst Cris Carter also said on Mike and Mike recently that Manziel's been drinking for awhile.

It's unlikely, then, that the Browns will be willing to turn the team over anytime soon to a player who's still obviously battling some of his demons -- meaning they'll likely have to be on the lookout for another quarterback in the draft.

When Haslam was flush with optimism, he was expecting his No. 12 overall pick Danny Shelton to make a huge impact on the run defense. Instead, the Browns are 32nd in the NFL against the run -- same as last season. Overall, the defense is 28th, and 23rd in sacks.

What's more, their No. 19 overall pick, Cam Erving, has yet to beat out John Greco or anyone else on the offensive line. Perhaps Erving will be good, but a first-rounder sitting as a rookie is usually not a good sign.

"The first year we were here, the draft was not what we wanted,'' Haslam said in August. "The second year was better, and a lot depends on how the two first rounders do, right? If they turn out to be really good players, then we had a tremendous draft two years ago. If one of them makes it, we had a good draft; if neither of them make it; it's ok or just so-so.

"This past year we had a really good draft. We added 12 players, two of them might be redshirts, and we have 11 picks this coming year. If you have that many picks and you pick good talent and can coach them, over a period of time we're going to be successful."

Problem is, the one receiver the Browns drafted this year -- fourth-rounder Vince Mayle -- failed to make the roster and was recently waived by the Cowboys. The other big acquisition at receiver, Dwayne Bowe, has been inactive the past three games and has played only 12 snaps this season despite his two-year free agent contract with $9 million guaranteed. He'll likely be active against the Cardinals, but the season is getting away from him.

Thanks to quarterback Josh McCown, the Browns have been in every game this season despite marginal talent at some positions.

If Haslam determines that the coaches have too little to work with, perhaps he'll beef up or shake up the personnel department and keep the coaching staff intact. At the very least, he'll take a long hard look at general manager Ray Farmer and his track record over the past two years, especially with the first-round picks.

In the meantime, Pettine has asked his players and coaches to dig deep and do more to turn the season around.

"In the team meeting (Monday), we talked about where we are and what adversity does for you,'' he said. "It's easy to exist in this profession when things are going well. When things aren't, you truly find out who you are – who is mentally tough, who cares about this team, who is willing to step up.

"Everybody was challenged to take a personal inventory – where they are, what are they doing well and what are they not doing well and how do we change it?''

If they don't, someone else might.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/10/if_browns_falter_during_tough.html


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