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Mistake.

Why, he's had a week and a half of first team reps? The only better scenario would be to give him the start after the bye.

I think Johnny winds up starting this week because the Browns can't pump enough Cortisone into Josh this time around.

This isn't going to be pretty and my under/over of Johnny making it through the first quarter alive is about 50/50. I think we'll see Austin Davis this week as well. Who's the back-up QB after Hartline since he has a concussion?

Hopefully Josh is healed up by next week, because the JFF lovers on this thread will be relentless with the excuses and the reasons he needs to play the next week.

I have seen them multiple times, very focused and going over stuff. Seemed like what should be happening to me.

You are correct, sir.

QFT. Can I start the "Austin" chants yet?

It's official:

Pettine announces Johnny Manziel will start Thursday

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/201...partner=ya5nbcs

I already did in this thread. Post #1023510

Who are the "JFF lovers" on this thread, on this board?

Disagree

He needed the start at home, against the Cards, to simply get his game form, his speed of play up to snuff. Many on this board ranted on it for the past 1 1/2 to 2 weeks. McCown was injured and needed to recover.

I smell a rat. This stinks of a setup.

I'm not a lover of this kid. He's shown a little more maturity this year (with that one exception that seemed to be much ado about nothing).

But I don't believe we should have ever picked him. I never believed that we should ever have picked him. But he's here now and I wish and hope for the best.

Unfortunately, I expect the worst.

Who are the "JFF lovers" on this board? The guys who have been "relentless with excuses" on why we need to finally find out what we have? Whether there is a shot that he is the same winner who could walk into Tuscaloosa and practically, singlehandedly, hand Saban his jock? The guys who want to see what happens when you finally put him on the field where he belongs?

Are those the JFF lovers? Or, are they the guys who want to see what we have so we can move forward?

Django.

I love the 'see what we have" argument the most.

What we have is a starting QB named Josh McCown that is good enough to start this year and next year if we want him to.

If JFF showed enough in camp and practice to warrant playing time, Pettine wouldn't be wheeling McCown out on a stretcher.

But your "this stinks of a set-up" argument is exactly what I was talking about.

I'm sure Josh McCown got hurt on purpose just to make JFF look bad this week.

Whatever excuse you can think of to get him to play against the Steelers next week. He'll stink against them as well.

He'll play, he'll stink, and you won't give up.

Good. Let's see what Johnny brings to the field.

What I want to see him do regardless of outcome:

- protect the ball
- protect the ball
- protect the ball. It would be nice, if he doesn't turn the ball over more than once. Depending on the course of the game, two could be acceptable too

- play within himself, no heroics

- as many NFL throws FROM THE POCKET as possible and no, dancing around and throwing hail marys don't qualify. Nice to watch, but can't live on that

- some sort of leadership or proof that the guys are not only playing with him, but for him. That would be nice

I am not a big fan of Johnny and I think we should have drafted Bridgewater, Carr, or even Jimmy G instead.

However, I don't think your expectations for him make much sense.

Asking him to be a game manager is pretty dumb. You don't draft a guy w/his skill set in the first round to be a game manager.

I think that best case scenario is that Johnny makes more good plays than bad plays and that he makes his best plays to continue drives and win games.

I could live w/that.

He is going to make mistakes. He is going to take chances. That is who he is. But, he can also has made magical plays in his past. He is way more of a gun slinger than a game manager.

If I were coaching him, I would treat him how The Big Show treated Farve. You preach about being careful w/the ball and not losing the game for us, but you live the ups and downs because at the end of the day.......he won way more than he lost.

I doubt Manziel will ever come close to that status, but that is the best case scenario and it would be stupid to try and turn him into a Bob Griese type.

He got almost two weeks of practice time with the "one's" without having to face one of the league's best defenses inbetween! There's no better opportunity for him!

All reasonable. I'd like to see these things as well.

I would just like to point out that McCown has not protected the ball this year, did not play within himself (there were definitely "I'm going to be the hero" moments), and it is not clear that guys actually play for him (our record is 2-6 and he continuously takes a beating).

So all of these standards that you are holding Manziel to (which I all agree on) are not being used to hold McCown to. It's a bit of a double standard. McCown is a nice guy. He's easy to root for. The players like him. But just because the guys like him, doesn't mean he checks any of those boxes. I don't believe you're a McCown fan, but this was more a general comment to the board. I think most would like to see Manziel do the things you mentioned when they don't realize McCown does nearly none of them.

bonefish, I've noticed something with Rodgers this year that never quite occurred to me before. He is a prancer. He loves to dance in the pocket, a lot of times for no reason. But he's so athletic, always keeps his eyes downfield, and has an uncanny knack for knowing exactly how close the DL is that he gets away with it. But I actually hesitate to call Rodgers a "pocket passer". But he's so friggin' good regardless. His just a special kind of cat.

The only one that bums me out is Carr.

Kid is turning out to be special.

what's worse is posters like you, who just look for any reason to say See, I told you he sucks. I could care less who the QB is as long as we win.. McCown isn't a winner either. what's his record last 2 seasons? 2-20 or something. JFF is 1-0 in starts this year.. What does that mean? nothing, its all about what you do moving forward.. Its not like our staff has proven to be developers of talent or evaluators of talent..Only way to know is to play..so yes, people saying let's see what we have is absolutely correct...how the hell are you going to know if they can play or not..practice doesn't mean anything

It's actually about having a plan. McCown is not a plan. From what I can see, there is no plan.

Once again, I think you guys have it all wrong in how to evaluate Johnny. I think the idea would be to eliminate some of his mistakes, but you can't take his playmaking chances away from him. That would be counter productive.

I do wonder if Pet thinks more like you guys than the way The Big Show and I think about those types of qbs.

Oh, and Rodgers movement in the pocket is for a reason. He buys times w/those moves. His OL isn't all that. He also can throw the ball from all kinds of angles and it's really hard for the defense. One bad game does not change any of that.

Good stuff

Only thing I question is whether Django's expectations make sense. They do make sense from my perspective.

I didn't interpret DJ's post as stripping Manziel of his playmaking ability. I think he just wants to see competent QB play, as do I.

My comment on Rodgers has nothing to do with their past game. He's a prancer. Regardless of how good his OLine is, he moves for no reason A LOT. He's also awesome, and I think he's the best QB in the league. It's just an observation.

Cool Vers, it's my opinion that Manziel has the ceiling of Colt McCoy type game manager. That's the best shot I see for him to have any sort of career in the NFL. Backup QBs make good money too. Of course if you let him play like "who he is", then he will crash and burn out of this league in a nanosecond, that's the way I see it. Take chances? Sure, I don't want a timid Colt clone out there, but not as "his game", that has to change. You win in the NFL by owning the short and mid routes and then take chances deep when the D creeps up. If you can't throw the bread and butter plays, the game becomes backyard football.

Of course, this was the big divide and, in my opinion, misconception about his talent well before the draft. That's why some saw a franchise QB and others a gimmick 3rd day project.
18 month into his career, the project part has been pretty much proven, which already makes the pick for a 1st+3rd a bust in my book, because wasting almost 50% of his rookie contract for nothing is burning value. It remains to be seen if the talent part is now closer to a franchise QB or 3rd day "guy"

We will see tomorrow and maybe the upcoming weeks. For the sake of all of us, I just hope we don't embarrass ourselves any further. It can't be worse than last year and from a "spot" perspective, our chances aren't that bad with Cincy coming off a very tough game vs the Steelers. Otoh, I don't see them "let down" because it's a national game.

Do you have Sunday ticket, Rish?

We have a stat boy on here who constantly posts negative stats of Teddy. But do either of you ever watch these guys play?

Minnesota's OL stinks. Their receivers consist of a bunch of nobodies. He does have Peterson this year, but he didn't last year.

Conversely, Carr's OL is awesome. He has excellent WRs and a TE. The RB is not Peterson, but he's pretty darn good.

Both of these guys are playing very well. Both of their teams stunk before they arrived. They are winning games. A lot of the very best things Teddy does will never be revealed on a stat sheet. I am not the only one saying that. Do you ever watch the post game shows? They say the same thing. Again, do you really ever watch his games? The announcers say it. His teammates say it. But some of you would rather rely on carefully selected stats from Stat Boy.

I will say this.........Carr is proving to be way, way better than I thought he was going to be. I was wrong about him. steve and Mourg were right. See how easy it is to admit you are wrong? I'm still alive and didn't lose any fingers or toes. The color guy in last week's game said the knock on Carr coming out of college was his toughness and his reluctance to stand in the pocket and make throws. That was the same criticism I had of him. However, Carr is proving that to not be true. He does stand in there. He gets excellent protection, way, way better than Teddy, but he still has shown the toughness to stand in the pocket and deliver the ball downfield. I misjudged that aspect of his game and I was wrong.

But Rish, I was NOT wrong about Teddy. Minnesota stunk before he took over. Now they are winning games and he is a big reason for that. And no amount of cherry=picked stats from a guy who admits to not understanding the need to be fair when debating is going to change that.

I got one more thing for you guys..........I think it's dumb to not want to see Johnny make plays outside of the pocket and throw for big plays down the field. WTH kinda thinking is that?

It's almost as if some are setting the criteria to impossible proportions, so that even if the kid plays well and we win, they can still say......."he isn't doing it from the pocket." Pfffttttttttttt

I only care about winning and losing. Screw style points! If he can make plays to win games..........that is good enough for me and I don't give a rat's ass how he does it.

I mean....just....



You can't make this stuff up folks. You do realize practice, preparation, training, off-seasons and the work put in when nobody is watching is literally EXACTLY what matters right? Winning and success aren't magic, they have to be earned.

Tell that to Iverson.

You know Graf, if I go after a Dawg I need to really check myself and make sure I consider the context of his point of view, when harping on specifics.

I don't think Johnny is going to make it either, Dj. It's a long shot, at best.

I was just talking about what the expectations should be for him if he is to ever succeed. He'll never be a good game manager. There are risk takers in the NFL and some have success. That's his only chance.

You always want to limit the number of mistakes these "types" make, but you can't change who they are and expect it to be good.

Stefon Diggs called. He'd like you to re-think the first part of that statement.




FWIW I'm not saying Bridge stinks. I'd rather have him every day and twice on Sunday over JFF...but to be fair Minny's offense is 22nd in points. Comparatively their defense is 2nd in the NFL. Second. That team is winning games because of their defense, not Teddy, pure and simple.

What round was Diggs drafted in?

And you can use phrases like "pure and simple" to pretend you are an authority, but it only makes you appear to be closed-minded in my evaluation.

I watch the games. Teddy is certainly helping that team win.

How was that great defense helping Minni win games before Teddy arrived?

Heck, I remember Stat Boy's argument when bashing Hoyer. He did it against Minnesota's defense, which is the worst in the league. LMAO.........y'all kill me.

Look, Minni's D has improved, but Teddy is a big part of the reason they are winning. And his coaches and teammates are always saying the same thing. They just don't use terms such as "pure and simple."

The context was, Johnny must not have been playing because the coaches and players think he stinks in meetings, weight room, locker room and practice.

But, because Johnny is a "gamer" who once went on the road and beat a college team a few years ago (holy crap give him the NFL MVP already, he won IN TUSCALOOSA!) while pulling crap out of his butt...then none of that practice stuff should matter.

Put him in and "let's see what we got". Right. Genius.

Rish, McCown has 9 turnovers in 6 full games played. And one of that was all on Turbin, but McCown got the fumble to his name. Regardless, 1.5 TO is below AVG probably, but not really bad considering that he has no running game at all, plays from behind a lot and has been pretty clutch on 3rd down. Yes, he keeps the ball too long, but I can excuse it because he has made enough plays to offset it, similar to Roethlisberger (no, I'm not comparing them on talent, just style).

In other words, you have to earn the right to make mistakes by making more good plays to offset them. 1.5 TO/game is something Manziel would dream of right now, no way would he come close to that average, if he drops back as much as McCown was asked to. We both know that.

I've gone back and re-read your post a couple times to check and see if what I thought you said is what you said.

What has been proven Django? And, how exactly has that been proven?

I'm not a genius, its your "coaches and players" who apparently are the geniuses.

I disagree. Emphatically!

5th. What round was Brady drafted in? Why does it matter? He's a stud. Surely Teddy has a role to play in how well he's doing, I won't argue that. I'm just saying Bridge is NOT throwing to a bunch of nobodies. I think Diggs will go to multiple pro bowls before it's all said and done.



I mean....okay I guess. Whatever floats your boat. I see offense #22, defense #2. Not hard to figure out how a team is winning games. To me that's pretty "pure and simple".



I never said he wasn't HELPING.



You aren't honestly arguing that Bridge has any effect on their defensive turnaround are you? Which defensive position is he playing these days? Maybe he's just using Jedi mind tricks . Once you figure out how to answer this one maybe you need to share it with McCown so he can start helping OUR defense too! LOL.