DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns Offensive Line Ranked #2 by ProFootballFocus

2. Cleveland Browns (3rd)

Pass blocking rank: 1st

Run blocking rank: 5th

Penalties rank: 25th

Stud: Joe Thomas (93.8), despite trade rumors, remains the best player the Browns have on the roster.

Dud: We’re drawing a blank here. Every starter on the line has a positive grade. That’s impressive.

Summary: The scary thing is, this line could get better. Alex Mack (77.9) isn’t back to his pre-injury levels, and as good as Joel Bitonio (83.3) has been, he’s not reached his rookie-year efforts yet. Even despite that, this is a line that does its best to overcome the limitations of the Browns’ skill players.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2015/11/04/ranking-all-32-nfl-offensive-lines-entering-week-9/

Hammer away.

i could see the pass blocking being 1st. people have made it clear a lot of the problem is McCown.

but no way in hell are we top 5 in run blocking.

OL never was the problem. It's a major reason McCown has the time to detect the smurfs in the open field. It's the main reason both McCown and the receivers look better than ever in their careers.

McCowns inability to give up on broken plays and the total ineptitude of our "runners" make them look worse than they are. The "blocking" of the TEs an FB don't help much either. They're doing this all alone

I honestly think people have forgotten how a bad OL looks like. The Browns don't have one. Just like every WR drops balls or elite CB gives up completions, it's normal that OL lose battles too, but considering the disrespect opposing front 7s have shown towards our running game, coming out blitzing early and often, they're doing a very good job.

I totally agree w/you on this one. You make more sense to me when you talk OL instead of QBs.

It's the 25th in penalties that really ticks me off.
Most penalties are of the pre-snap variety as well.
Any coach understands that sometimes a holding penalty is a good penalty, but multiple false starts are just brain farts that cost you games.

An o-line coach is failing to correct what should be easily correctable in the penalty department.

I dunno about either of those ranks. From watching the game, there seems to be way too many unblocked rushers teeing off on our QB to justify such a high pass block rank. Many times it's from the middle when an interior lineman double teams a lineman and allows a LBer to fly right by.

Similarly in the run game, our RBs are getting smacked in the backfield too many times for such a high grade.

I get that TEs and FBs aren't doing any favors, but you can't hang the discrepancy all on that.

In those particular cases, it usually means that a RB or FB is supposed to be picking that guy up and it's not happening.

If McCown had one decent receiver over 6 foot his numbers would be staggering.

Ranked first in drive ending motion penalties. Ranked first in QB's injured during regular season. 1/5 of the oline is a stud. 1/5 of the Oline is not 100%

Ranking's. Pfft... not even a moral victory in this fluff stuff.

with the horrible run blocking we have where guys get hit behind the line of scrimmage so often there is no way we have that great an o-line.

I guess they might be in a bad system that is using them poorly but results are results.

I'm pretty sure he's had a couple decent receivers over 6ft tall to pass to during his career and his numbers have never been staggering.

Brandon Marshall and Alshon Jefferey disagree on that one.

So what are you saying? With better WR's who are also taller than our brigade of smurfs - McCowns very impressive passing stats would not be better? Don't get me wrong I like what TB has done. I like Hawkins. But I can't believe anyone wouldn't (or couldn't because of agenda) acknowledge having a 6'3" Gordon or similar in there to throw to would help McCown.

I would guess the problem is some people are so anti-McCown that they can't accept that he is excelling behind this OL just like some thought was a possibility. . . . who McCown had to throw the ball to before on other teams really isn't relevant to what he can do here with them is it? Some are so anti-Farmer that the fact that maybe he did find the most viable FA QB out there is too hard to admit .... I get that it looks like he has whiffed seriously in the draft - but credit is due where its due. McCown would fall into that category for me ... Where are the Ryan Mallet fan boys that wanted to TRADE for him? Where are the Sam Bradford fan boys who wanted to give up a first round pick for him?

I find this rather interesting. It clearly suggests the poor offensive performance is not on the OL. It is hard to fault McCown. He is no Peyton Manning, but his play this year has been at least average for an NFL QB.. That places the onus on the running backs and receivers. Is that a function of a management plan that relies on low draft round choices at RB and small, non-physical receivers? You wonder if Farmer reads this kind of study and says “I wonder……”. Nah, probably not.

There is no way we are #5 when it comes to the run , no , no, no way ! Now granted Run by Comity dosn't help and Crowell has a lack of vision and Duke sitting on the Bench for a whole half dosn't help ..

I agree, that is a friggen joke. It's not like our backs are 40 year old 245 lb flabby men who can't run. If we are 5th in blocking, I'd rather be 30th in blocking and 5th in rushing yards. WTH??

Josh holds some of the blame too. He does hold the ball too long, but that does help the passing game as much as it adds to the sack total. Also don't forget that our FB's and TE's don't block well at all.

I'm no QB guru, but I have heard this excuse about QB's often. If I am playing QB I am getting rid of the ball ASAP. If I hold it, it's only because I don't have an open receiver to throw to. Ok, Weeden was the exception, he held it because he was very slow at reading defenses. But a vet like McCown doesn't have that problem. It seems like you all want him to throw the ball away if there is no open reveiver at the snap. I don't see that as a solution. He is holding the ball trying to make a play for a moribund offense. Throwing the ball away accomplishes nothing. We might argue that from a health point it is stupid to take the punishment he does, but that is his decision. Frankly, I thought the guy was a bad signing, but I have to admit I have been pleasantly surprised with what he has accomplished giving the cast he has to work with.

Like I said, it helps the passing game as much as it adds to the sack total. It's not really an excuse, more like an explanation. I don't want him to change his game.

I wasn't a huge Josh fan, but thought he was the best of the few choices we had. I really respect the guys heart more than anything right now.

They graded us very highly last year (top 5 overall, #2 pass blocking). They also predicted us to be #1 this preseason. So I think a lot of bias subconsciously enters their grading. They expect our guys to be good and they grade from that frame of reference.

Yes, this is my first post. Go Browns!

Welcome, T-Brown! Sorry, "tex" is already spoken-for...

Yup. You'll have to come up with a unique name like something with "dawg" in it.

Hmmmmmm, how to say this????

--Let me start w/the excuse part. Are you saying that people are making excuses for the OL? It's not an excuse, a rumor, a theory, or a lie to say that a qb needs to throw the ball on time. It's a fact! Every team in the country, whether it be the NFL, collegiate, or high school works on the qb getting rid of the ball on time. Did you know that most routes in the NFL calls for the qb to get rid of the ball in 1.8 to 2.1 seconds? Did you know that 4 seconds is an eternity? That is why it is hard for many fans to recognize whether the qb is holding it too long or if it is just that the OL sucks, because the difference between 2 seconds and 4 seconds isn't something they recognize during the excitement of the game.

--You say that a vet like McCown doesn't have the problem of reading defenses. I am not trying to be rude, but that is pure hogwash. Reading post-snap coverages is the hardest thing to do in sports. It really doesn't matter how long they have been in the league. It is the reason why it is so hard to evaluate Spread qbs in college. They are not asked to do it. It's not something you can teach. You can teach pre-snap reads by seeing if they are lined up in a Cover 3 and you see the safety cheating up, then you know to dump it into the flat to either a TE or usually your RB. But if a team is disguising their coverage and change it on the snap, it is very difficult for qbs. Some are better at it than others.

No one, other than Bone, is going to want to hear this, but think back to when we had Weeden starting. It was early in the year and posters were calling our OL putrid. There were talks of us having the worst line in the league. We must absolutely draft offensive linemen. Then, Hoyer comes in and the OL magically improves overnight.

Flash forward to the next season. Hoyer is at qb and the OL is being applauded for how great they are.

Now, venture to the present time and we have know-it-alls telling us that the OL stinks. Funny how that works.

I am not a Hoyer pimp and didn't really wanna bring him up, but I did so only to prove how important it is for a qb to get the ball out of his hand in time. Josh McCown has always struggled w/holding the ball too long.

--You also said that throwing the ball away accomplishes nothing. You may want to rethink that one. Let's say you pick up 4 yards on first down. It's second and 6, you drop back to pass, Your first read is covered, you look to your second and he hasn't separated yet, and now a defender is coming off the edge. What do you do? Throw it away and have a manageable third down or take a sack and make it 3rd and 18? Taking sacks often kill drives. There are reasons why left tackles and edge rushers are so sought after and so highly paid. You never, ever want to put yourself in negative down and distance situations.

--You also mentioned that you have been pleasantly surprised w/McCown's play. I agree w/you on this one.


I decided to reply to your post as a general reply to all the people who are knocking the OL. Our OL is good. Very good. And you guys are way off base ripping on them. Your eyes are deceiving you.

I just thought of something..........Dj, tab, and I all think the OL is good and not the problem. Has there ever been a time in the history of the boards that the three of all agreed on the same thing at one time??????

excellent post. i can tell that because it was what i was saying all offseason and being called a troll over lol.

Versatile, very nice post. What about the lack of run game though. I would like to think it just takes time for a unit to gel in the ZBS, but they did it last year.

Also, did anyone else get screwed by PFF when they made the grades unreadable for "new" members. I wasn't a new member. They cancelled my auto-payment then when I got back on POOF, no more grades. Now they're using the silly 0-100 scale that is MAYBE 15% as valuable as the grades.

For those that welcomed me, thank you. I was on another board for awhile which has some great posters, but is mostly one huge cursing fest I never wanted to partake in. Glad I finally found a better one!

Welcome aboard/back, pal. Here for all the right reasons.

Post like a Brown!

Well very hard to ignore the message, and the message is that OL isn't a major factor, which works against the teams that have invested all in lineman (Browns, Dallas) .

We would be much better if we had the #2 QB, the #2 RB or the #2 Wr group, I have no doubts of that, and this stats show that. But all in all I think success comes when you have a balanced offence, with no major weaknesses, and that should teach Petine and Farmer that all positions are important in the game.

If we think about it, what's the worth of having the best pass protector LT in the game,in the end it just takes on D player to neutralize him. Sure he's going to have monster games and go to probowls each year, but in the end we will not win a game because of him.

From my own eye test Mack has been playing much worse than last year. Whether it is injury-related, the scheme change, or whatever I'm not sure ... but he looks less athletic and has gotten less of a push

I'd also say that Bitonio has struggled compared to last year.

I honestly think the ZBS really fit our players to perfection. We are finesse, smart, and can get to the next level in space ... we aren't maulers or gap creators

Mack has improved immensely the last 2 weeks, so I think he was still just shaking off the injury.

Bitonio had one of the best first years I have seen from an o-lineman, so yes he has regressed a little, but I would still put him at one of the top guys in his position.

Schwartz has amazed me with how well he improved this year although the last two weeks have been pretty bad.

I really don't think that ZBS or gap matters much for this o-line and I think they could play both equally well. It might make a difference for our runners more than our o-line.

[quote=Texas_Brown] I was on another board for awhile which has some great posters, but is mostly one huge cursing fest .../quote]

You won't get that here, but be prepared for "speed-bumps" of varying sizes, frequency, and intensity...

DON’T BLAME O-LINE FOR BROWNS’ OFFENSIVE STRUGGLES

PFF's Sam Monson explains why Johnny Manziel will be taking the field behind the NFL's No. 2 offensive on TNF.

SAM MONSON | 36 MINS AGO

The Cleveland Browns are averaging 3.4 yards per carry on the ground, and have surrendered 27 sacks across both starting quarterbacks—but PFF just ranked their offensive line as the second-best unit in the league through the first half of the season.
Why?
Every single starter along the line has a positive grade, which looks crazy when their running game can’t get anything done, and their quarterbacks have been sacked more than all but four other teams.



Offensive lines are far too often perceived to be the only component in blocking for both the run and pass; in reality, they are only the most important part of a bigger puzzle. Backs, tight ends, and receivers all play a significant role, especially in certain blocking schemes.
When you add up all the blocking grades by players at positions other than the offensive line, Cleveland doesn’t just rank towards the bottom—they’re dead last in the NFL, with a cumulative blocking grade of -29.1, three times worse than even “bad” teams, and five times worse than the league average.
For as well as Gary Barnidge has been playing as a receiver, he has been little short of disastrous as a blocker—and Jim Dray has been little better in his snaps. FB Malcolm Johnson is our lowest-graded player at his position. No blocking scheme in football can get it done just with the five guys along the line—even a light defensive front has six guys in the box, one more than they can pick up—so you need the other players involved in the run game to hold up their end of the bargain to have any success on the ground.
Consequently, the Browns are a team that likes to run outside zone, and can’t reliably get to the edge. Their average yards per carry around right end is 2.7; to the left, it’s just 1.1. Running either side of G John Greco, by contrast, is yielding an average of 4.0 yards per carry.
When they run outside zone, the Browns have gained just 104 yards on 41 attempts (2.5 yards per carry), compared to more than a full yard better when they run inside. When they run outside zone, the blocking is generating an average of just 0.49 yards before the running back is contacted, which is 24th in the NFL. Inside, that jumps more than a yard, despite poor lead blocking.
When you look at the passing game, the offensive line is again being undone by the other elements in the equation. Josh McCown has the 10th-highest percentage of passes that take 2.6 seconds or more, and Johnny Manziel is even worse at fourth-highest, with 55.6 percent of his passes taking longer than 2.5 seconds. The offensive line is simply being asked to pass block for longer than most teams.
The team runs the sixth-most seven-step drops, and though the sacks are high, we have charged seven of those sacks to the Cleveland quarterbacks, four more than to any single lineman. Despite blocking in an offense that asks a lot of the linemen, we have only charged them with nine of the 27 sacks Cleveland has surrendered. Tight ends, running backs, and quarterbacks have been at fault for 13 of them (the remaining being some form of unblocked or clean-up pressure, which will not be charged to an offensive player).
The offensive line alone has surrendered only 82 total pressures, 47 fewer than the worst unit in the league (San Diego).
If you look only at the success of the Cleveland running backs and the number of times their QBs have hit the turf, you’d think the line has been doing a terrible job—but the tape places the finger of blame elsewhere on most of those plays. Cleveland’s offensive line has been grading well overall, with Joe Thomas, in particular, a perennial stud. The Browns’ issues on offense are because they’re not getting help from anywhere else.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2015/11/05/dont-blame-browns-o-line-for-offensive-struggles/

So Eo you want stats, you can't handle stats...:-)

#2QB is according to NFL - TOM BRADY
#2 RB is Chris Johnson
#2 Wrs are New England Patriots

So there you have...

People have to admit that when it comes to evaluating OL and CB's, we don't know skwat. Kind like you when evaluating Qb's and Wr's.

And for the record, I'm not against investing in OL, what I'm firmly against is neglecting other positions, and drafting lineman when other positions are very strong in the draft (remember Macks's draft where it was a very strong lb class, and the last draft's where WR's were very good).

After all this investments in OL, I don't see any difference in team production, and actually the only season we went to the playoffs was before JT.

Regarding Dallas, fact is they haven't seen the playoffs much and IMHO its more media Hype then anything.

I suppose that you are referring to Timmy, well blaming the OL for his lack of aptitude to play the position is absurd.

One thing I don't think has been mentioned as well is because of the height of our WR's, our QB's do have to wait till they get that step on a DB before throwing the ball. When you have a big WR you can put it up there while he's still engaged and let him fight for the ball. It is probably the biggest reason that Barnidge is getting so many balls thrown his way this year.

Eo Ok where do I start...

Maybe by repeating myself and saying that its a problem when you avoid drafting other positions to invest so much in others, namely Lineman and Cb's.

Can you imagine the browns team with Julio Jones and Sammy or Odell... just to name a few.

Second, yes we have been here before, and my point is being proved right time and time again.

LoS is important, but its not the whole thing, and actually it depends a lot on the skill positions you have because its not only the lineman that give opportunity for others to look good, Skill players also make the line look good, or bad, that's why we have been having so much ups and downs on our game, but the line stayed almost the same.

For example, now we have Mack back we aren't running, so why do people think we stopped running last year because he went down?

Regarding JT, I've never questioned how good player he is,just that he is a waste in Cleveland and more then that, since he is the face of the franchise he sets the tone and he is a guy that doesn't mind losing. He is what you may call a Loser, or he just likes fishing more then playing football, so by not being in a winning team he has more time.

I also despise the idea that you can be a HF Player in a losing team, that sets the tone for other players who can cruise in the Browns and avoid being exposed in a competitive team.

Finally I never bought the whole LT is the second most important position in the team....

First we have drafted plenty of QB's, RB's and WR's in the early rounds, it just so happens that we are really bad at drafting them.

Next your LT is probably the second most important position in football unless you want to draft the next Peyton Manning and let him die on the field in his first season.

Third, pointing at something that's good as the reason for the rest being bad is really weird logic.

LT Joe Thomas extended his consecutive-snaps streak to 8,496, the longest active stretch in the league. Thomas has started all 137 games and hasn’t missed an offensive play since being selected by the Browns with the third overall pick in the 2007 draft.

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/arti...cb-2fd239ddc162

http://www.waitingfornextyear.com/2015/11/cleveland-browns-offensive-line-analysis/

On Wednesday, a lot of analytical effort was spent on the Cleveland Browns offensive line in the wake of trade rumors surrounding one Joe Thomas. The folks over at Pro Football Focus took issue with the team potentially trading Thomas, a player who not only rates as the best at his position, but one of the best in football. It then went on to say that the Browns’ offensive line, despite the team’s inability to run the football, was one of the best in the NFL—a stance that was met with plenty of scrutiny.

Fast forward to Thursday, and Pro Football Focus fires back, saying that the lack of run game is not the fault of the five men who comprise the offensive line, but the others who are responsible for taking on blocking assignments. Take a look:

Offensive lines are far too often perceived to be the only component in blocking for both the run and pass; in reality, they are only the most important part of a bigger puzzle. Backs, tight ends, and receivers all play a significant role, especially in certain blocking schemes.

When you add up all the blocking grades by players at positions other than the offensive line, Cleveland doesn’t just rank towards the bottom—they’re dead last in the NFL, with a cumulative blocking grade of -29.1, three times worse than even “bad” teams, and five times worse than the league average.

For as well as Gary Barnidge has been playing as a receiver, he has been little short of disastrous as a blocker—and Jim Dray has been little better in his snaps. FB Malcolm Johnson is our lowest-graded player at his position. No blocking scheme in football can get it done just with the five guys along the line—even a light defensive front has six guys in the box, one more than they can pick up—so you need the other players involved in the run game to hold up their end of the bargain to have any success on the ground.

Consequently, the Browns are a team that likes to run outside zone, and can’t reliably get to the edge. Their average yards per carry around right end is 2.7; to the left, it’s just 1.1. Running either side of G John Greco, by contrast, is yielding an average of 4.0 yards per carry.

When they run outside zone, the Browns have gained just 104 yards on 41 attempts (2.5 yards per carry), compared to more than a full yard better when they run inside. When they run outside zone, the blocking is generating an average of just 0.49 yards before the running back is contacted, which is 24th in the NFL. Inside, that jumps more than a yard, despite poor lead blocking.
Interestingly, while Thomas rates at a league-best 93.8 among left tackles, Mitchell Scwhartz (85.5), Joel Bitonio (83.3) and John Greco (80.2) all rate highly. It’s not until you get to center Alex Mack (77.9) where average grades start to roll around. If we assume that these grades—based on execution of assignments and such—hold true, then this is fairly eye-opening revelation, one that I know I wouldn’t have thought of until painted in this light. That the Browns can get just 1.1 yards-per-carry around one of the best left tackles to play the game speaks volumes.

The PFF piece dives further into the team’s passing game and how they’re being obliterated by the quarterbacks holding on to the ball well beyond the league average amount of time. The offensive line alone has surrendered only 82 total pressures, 47 fewer than the worst unit in the league. the issue becomes when Josh McCown and Johnny Manziel take more than 2.5 seconds to throw the ball. Manziel is actually the fourth-worst in football, making things even that much more interesting for Thursday night.