DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Start Manziel thread

That he was a project and needed a lot of time to even come close to impacting on a NFL field. Most QBs need time, but there some you can put out there without too much embarrassment and then there's the Manziel-Cincy game project-ness where you have to cover your face.

The Browns spent a 1st and 3rd on him. That's instant starter and contributor with starter upside territory in draft terms and the net result was a project who's "maybe" a starter in year 3. That's the definition of a project and worth a mid round value at best.

If that quote was attributed to a source who is currently employed in the NFL, how many chances would it take anyone to guess that Farmer was the one who said it? LOL

Did you really drop the Brady thing on me? LMAO

I was wondering about Diggs for a couple of reasons:

1. Our great GM passed on him and chose Mayle ahead of him.

2. Did you ever think Diggs might be getting looks because their other WRs are not very good? Charles Johnson, yes--the same Charles Johnson who could not make the Browns, was their top WR last year.


Don't get all incredulous w/me. I did not say that Teddy made the defense better. What I said is why were they not winning games w/that great defense before Teddy took over?

Look...........you guys can hate all you want. But, they are 5 and 2 and we are 2 and 6.

All I have is my perspective on Johnny and where we were at when we drafted him.

Its simple. In my little world I see the upper echelon, my required classification, of Quarterbacks who should play for the Browns as CAN HE WIN TWO CONSECTUTIVE PLAYOFF GAMES?

If a QB can do that, if something he does in college suggests he may be able to do that, then I'm interested.

If something suggests there is no-way he can do that, then I'm passionate in dismissing him.

I've swung and missed on a couple. Specifically, Kaepernick and Flacco. Some may say that Kap had a QB whisperer that was 90% responsible for driving that one home. Recent results would suggest that's true.

I watched Kaepernick and Carr all four years they were in college. Live and on TV. My three kids have graduated from a rival and I eventually bought in to their football program. Carr? When it comes to the Browns I am ruthless. Brutal. I'm Honey Badger. I don't care. I will rip on anyone who threatens my moment of watching the Lombardi lifted. Arthur the Rat sent me signed Duke footballs and even a kid uniform when I was little. Doesn't matter, nobody has been as brutal on him as me. I have a scary side when it comes to this stupid football team. Back to Carr (which I know you concurred back in the day). Derek Carr had a nearly 100% track history of completely melting down when playing against good to very good teams. He was in a spread, had high level receivers, and was able to dominate the weaker Mountain West talent primarily in his Senior year. Maybe we can add him to the Flacco, Kaepernick list, but not till he wins 2 playoff games in a row. In order to do that, you must be able to throw vertically, downfield, into windows. That is not debatable. He may be able to do that. (We won't veer off onto Teddy)

Manziel? Johnny Manziel to me was the first guy since Aaron Rodgers who we had a chance of getting that gave me at least a shot, a shot, of meeting the potential 2 playoff win standard. He was a proven winner. He had ice through his veins and a chip on his shoulder. He had special playmaking ability. He could transcend the game as he did in Tuscaloosa, two Major Bowls, and others. During his pro day he showed he had NFL arm strength and that, at that time, he was coachable.

I said on the board, at the time, he was high risk, high potential reward. The most important thing... we actually had the opportunity to take that risk. He was not a sure thing. But, if we handled him right, we might break that thing that Clem alluded to yesterday. Johnny gave us a shot. Weeden never did, Quinn never did, McCoy never did, Frye, etc... If Saban would call him a football player that should say it all. Manziel was a unquestioned football player. He was a baller. He was a winner. Was he unorthodox? Yes. So was Bernie.

Johnny Manziel, unlike almost everyone of Farmer's picks was worth the gamble. Especially when you look at all of Farmer's other picks. You say that a first and third is instant starter, this and that. It was obvious to me we had to roll the dice on that draft. He was worth the risk.

Now, I'm in the minority. As I often am on the board. I believe he has been mishandled, from a coaching perspective, since minute one. Purposely, or Not Purposely, either way, he has been mishandled. I have thought, what if we were able to get Jim Harbaugh for that 3rd and 6th rd picks? How different might it have been? My thought? A LOT FREAKIN DIFFERENT! TOTALLY DIFFERENT!

My opinion. That and a buck fifty will get you a bus ride in anywhere in Vegas.

My opinion doesn't matter. Because it is only based on speculation. It pisses people off. No matter how obvious it is that Pet screwed the pooch on this, its much, much, easier to throw the blame totally on Manziel. It makes sense, Pettine handling the whole situation wrong, or purposely setting him up for failure, doesn't make sense.

But, it does.

Am I a "JFF" lover? I was his first pimp. Am I also the guy who pissed off the board by posting that we needed to start talking about trading up for Marcus Mariota before it was ever mentioned anywhere? Before Johnny even had his shot? The board lit me up like a JFF 12 step sponsor. I'm a lover of a stupid football team that pisses me off so bad it actually hurts.

Clearly some of you guys believe Bridgewater and/or Carr could have led the Brown's to the Super Bowl. That's the bottom line, isn't it? That is the only possible reason why you would persist on that front. We would be on our way to playoff success if we drafted one of those two.

Have a good time relishing in Johnny becoming a bust. I agree with you guys, you will most likely get your wish. We will never know if he had gone to the Seahawks, Broncos, Patriots, or any team with a Head Coach and Front Office who knows what they are doing, what might have happened. Only that we would have won the Super Bowl if had just drafted Teddy.

JC

Let me preface this comment by saying that I personally don't think Manziel will make it......I just haven't seen enough dedication nor skill set to make me feel otherwise.

However, I really wish we had a plan with him though considering the investment. A large part of that was Johnny's inability to act like a professional last year so that is his fault. This year though we have heard rave reviews about his work ethic and professionalism, and there still doesn't seem to be a plan.....at least one they are sticking to. I've read reporters say their plan was to sit him and let this be his rookie season, but if that's the case why start him tomorrow night?? If Josh is hurt then start Davis. I understand the need to see if we need a QB (my position as well) thus he must play at some point, but why not wait until after the bye week instead of a short week??

I just don't think the Browns are doing a good job of setting him up for success considering the resources that we invested. Maybe Haslem is pressuring them to put him on the field??? Maybe Farmer??? Perhaps Pet is sick of answering Mary Kay's questions about it..lol...but regardless of who and why the Browns handling of this has me scratching my head.

with johnny playing we have a chance at 10 win 6 loss this year.

He won't make it yet.

The guy still has a lot of flaws in his game and yes he will probably get killed this Sunday.

Can he make it? Sure, if he fixes his footwork and his throwing motion and keeps studying like he has been the last 6 months or so, he has a shot.

This guy ruined his own first year, he wasn't mis-handeled. Mis-drafted maybe because he just added more issues to a team that already had too many.

That being said, in my opinion he is putting forth the effort this year that he should have been putting in last year. He is not going to be able to change his throwing motion or footwork during the season, but can improve his reads and pocket presence.

So here we are. You guys are on page 9 of the start Johnny Thread. Now we'll see what happens when you throw in a kid that isn't ready.

He'll play, he'll stink, and then hopefully he'll sit and keep working at it.

There will be 2 opinions that will come next.

Half of you will start the "He stinks, get rid of him and start Austin Davis" thread.

Half of you will start the "He needs more snaps and time to develop before he takes us to the Superbowl" thread.

I might start the "you guys both need to be realistic, and give him more time to correct his flaws before he starts again" thread.

The last thing anyone should be doing is blaming Pettine for how Johnny has been handled. I saw the pic where Johnny had the $100 bill in his nose and I didn't see Pettine anywhere in the room.

See, this is an extreme exaggeration. I've never seen anyone say this or even suggest it. What some of us believe is we wouldn't be having a QB debate right now. What some of us believe is that there were better QB choices available at our pick that were passed up on. What some of believe is that our GM missed an opportunity to acquire better talent with that pick.



I think you're letting your emotions get the best of you. Are you saying that Carr and Bridgewater are not better QB's? Are you saying that fans want JFF to fail so that our team sucks and they are proven right?

If so, as a Browns fan myself, I take offense with that line of thinking. I didn't want JFF picked. I wanted Bridgewater and would have settled for Carr. I believe both are better QB's. Let's face it, as a rookie Bridgewater went 6-6 as a starter without AP. With his best WR being a cast off from the Browns practice squad. At this point in his career is he a Super Bowl QB? No, and nobody has said that. But he would have been a better choice.

These things are not pointed out to diss JFF, they are stated to show our FO is bad at evaluating talent.

But the fact is, JFF is a Brown. He is what we have. His success would make the team better and a much better product for us fans. We all want to see our team win. Just because some lack faith in JFF, doesn't mean we don't wish to see him be great, good, even above mediocre.

It's not the fault of the fans that Farmer didn't draft one of the best QB's left on the board. It's not our fault that they are trying to fit a round peg in a square hole with this O and JFF on the roster. Maybe you should place that blame where it belongs.

But I don't believe anything could make Browns fans any happier than to see JFF "wreck this league".

You should change your posting name to Moses.

You speak as if you have the omnipotent word from God; the truth revealed to you from most high. And, he has empowered you to see the future.

Thanks. Looked like he had his head in the game. I hope Flip lets him attack the middle like we did first half. Some of the offense has been silly. And I hope we roll him some and stay away from the empty backfield.

Rooting for JMANziel to show up.

I believe JFF was set up to have a chance to start. When you can't beat out Hoyer and McCown I think that speaks volumes.

JFF set himself up to fail last year. Turning into Johnny Rehab. Can't blame anyone but JFF. Or can you?

I would literally bet my house that Bridgewater will win a Super Bowl before Johnny freaking Manziel. And I don't even think Teddy is all that, nor that he'll necessarily ever win one himself. But c'mon. Do you read what you write?

First off, the Seahawks and the Patriots got lucky finding their quarterbacks. Unless you think that they thought that Wilson and Brady would be as good as they are? You mean they let round upon round of talent get drafted before these guys that at least one will be a first ballot hall of famer? Or, are they mediocre and it's their excellent coaches that make them so good?

I preferred Carr but my dislike of Manziel and his game are not because I'm salty that we didn't get the guy I wanted, it's because Manziel has not shown a damn thing at this level that makes me think he's more than a streaky backyard football player that will do just enough to keep people thinking he'll break through and leave you gasping for air when the game is over.

You've pretty much got the bases covered though, you can say if he succeeds that you were his first pimp and if he fails you've laid the groundwork for it being the Browns' fault. Either way, it's not on Manziel because god forbid you might have mis-scouted him. LOL

You know............I really, really wanted to defend you. I hate when several posters gang up on one. I wanna rush to your defense, but when you say crap like the following, it's hard to defend you:



That's pretty freaking lame, man.

the season is over so we might as well prove that we have to waste another draft pick on a QB yet again. Josh has done a great job don't get me wrong but with our defense sucking and our run game nonexistent.this bad no QB is going to win the game alone.

jc

Billick: I think Browns know Manziel's not the guy

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000...els-not-the-guy

"I wouldn't play a single snap of man coverage versus Johnny Manziel," Billick told Andrew Siciliano during Wednesday's version of Around the NFL. "I would not turn my back on him, because that's the only thing he seems capable of doing. I'd bring a four- and five-man rush, slow play it, I don't care if you sack the kid, just don't let him out of the pocket. Play change-up zone behind it and he'll throw a whole bunch of interceptions."

Playing out on national television, Thursday's game, airing exclusively on the NFL Network, offers Manziel a chance to redeem his sinking stock since the Texas A&M star was picked up by Cleveland in the first round of last year's draft. Play well, and the Browns might be convinced to hand over the keys and find out what they have in Manziel before the draft.

Unless they already know -- something Billick argued Wednesday.

"I don't have any faith right now that he can be a viable NFL quarterback, but Cleveland needs to find out," Billick said. "And he needs to be in substantive games taking substantive snaps. Well they've missed that opportunity to a degree, and their hesitancy to put him in -- I keep saying they need to have him in to decide. Well, I think they've already decided and know that he is not the guy."

That's the possibility I believe most fans dismiss. I've stated that I believe Manziel should play too. But I came to the realization, that if they already know he's not the guy, there would really be no point.

I'm not saying it's so, but I do believe it's a strong possibility worth considering.

And if so, Pit, why would you not start Austin Davis? I really don't know what their thinking is at this time...

It could also be that they brought Josh in to give JM a chance to regroup..Learn and prove himself...

Pettine repeatedly says how JM is doing everything right inside the building... and he gives him an A+

Playing time for Johnny will do him and us good...

Davis legimately has an excuse of not being up to speed and putting him in on a short week would be tantamount to murder. I'm not saying that's the only reason, but it would seem to be legitimate.

That's what I've been trying to say all along. I think they know that he isn't ready yet.

The key word here is "yet".

He has shown improvement and I wouldn't totally wash my hands with him, but throwing him on the field now isn't doing him any favors. Remember that this is technically his rookie year.

I suspect next year we will have Josh, Johnny, and a QB to be named later.

It just might be that the coaching staff is trying to help him succeed and not put him in a place that may cause him to fail like the 23 before..

Right. At the very least, mixed messages are being sent. If Manziel has no chance of being good and Pettine is done with him, as some on here would say, why is he QB2?

If he's still in the team's future plans, or they at least want to see him play to know if he is or not, then why is he playing behind a QB that was drafted 2002 and is on his 75th team?

That's an easy one.

He is #2 because although he's not ready, we haven't given up.

He is not #1, because right now he plays like #2.

If he's not ready, then why is he starting? Why isn't Austin Davis starting?

What would starting Austin Davis do? Does he give you a better chance to win? Are we invested in him at all?

If Manziel is actually a part of our future going foward (something Austin Davis is probably not a part of), then why throw him out there if he is not ready?

Why not sacrifice the non-first round pick?

Not being ready to be a full time starter and not being good enough to even be the back-up are 2 different things.

What kind of message are you sending to Johnnie by playing a waiver wire pickup ahead of him?

that he better get his crap togther?

If Austin Davis was much better than JFF then maybe, but do you want to motivate the guy or drive him back to drinking?

I have no clue if Austin Davis is any better than JFF btw.

From the reports it sounds like his old lady has done that to him already.

Like most seasons, sad but true.

My head hurts!

Good God, man!

I thought Manziel played alright and I think he should start at Pitt. Until Cinci knew we wouldn't be running, before the pocket looked like a jailbreak, he looked calm when he dropped back. His throwing, his mind looked right.

I think he did well, until we got behind. He then tried to put the team on his back and started making a ton of inaccurate throws.

Not sure if he is our franchise QB, but he has definitely improved from what I saw of him last season.

Imagine him with some bigger targets (ie Josh Gordon) and not just short slot WR's .... Field would open up more..

He is vastly improved but still not our franchise QB. Or ANY team's franchise QB. Backup at best.

Big difference between playing Bengals last year and his performance last night. I still cannot pull myself to instill faith or hope in him.

The deficiencies in his game can only be improved by live action. I wanted his first start to be in Pittsburgh but manure happens. Pettine's number one thing with his QBs CLEARLY seems to be to limit turnovers. Johnny did that.

I'm rewatching the game again and one thing he needs to improve on is throwing into tight coverage. More often than not, he does not lead his receivers but puts the ball into the back / body which allowed DB's to reach in and knock the ball away..

Besides the nice Duke floater, he needs to improve on the high passes as well...

You can tell he needs time to make touch passes and recognize the smaller window locations - much like most college QB's..