DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Start Manziel thread

i.e. things fixed with live action.

That is a great observation. I hope they can be overcome with more playing time and isn't a function of his height. I fear the high passes down the seam are a function of his height.

The talking heads thought JFF performed well last night.

I personally feel that he IS in fact a viable starter for the future, rather the "Franchise" tag fits is yet to be seen.

I think JFF needs both practice and game reps. It was obvious he was not in sync on many passes last night. The WRs also need to adjust to his velocity. His passes in the short game had more zip than most that I've seen from McCown this year, maybe thats an issue that needs to be addressed, who knows?

Trying to force JFF to stay in the pocket is not a great idea. The second half demonstrated what happens when the 'shorter' QB gets trapped in the collapsing pocket. He is smart with the ball so let him roll out more, this opens up plays and you don't have to be an analyst to see that.

j/c:

Time to give Johnny Manziel the keys to the offense

On Thursday night, the Browns lost to the Bengals in convincing fashion, giving Cleveland their fourth straight loss and a 2-7 record. It was just the third time that Johnny Manziel both started and finished a game, and despite the raw numbers along with the loss, it was Manziel’s best start of his career.

He only completed 45.5 percent of his passes, but he was accurate on two thirds of his throws. Five of his incompletions were drops, and another three passes were thrown away. Had those dropped passes been caught, he would have had another 59 yards on his passing total from yards in the air alone, as well as any potential yards after the catch.

He also had very few inaccurate throws, with most of them coming late in the game, where he tried to force things in order to make more plays. Typically, they were thrown in front of the receiver or under-thrown, but rarely in danger of turning the ball over.

Where Manziel was most successful is when he could get the ball out quickly. On passes where the time to throw was 2.3 seconds or faster, he completed 9-of-12 passes for 75 yards, with one of those three incompletions being a drop. Being down early in a game doesn’t always allow for quick passes, but if the Browns can keep games closer, Manziel could find more success with that quick passing game.

On top of doing an average job throwing the ball, he had four quarterback scrambles for 31 yards. With this kind of play, Manziel won’t be the reason the Browns win games—but he also won’t be the reason Cleveland loses.

At a 2-7 record, the Browns chances of making the playoffs are minimal. If Cleveland starts Manziel and he plays worse than McCown, they will keep losing, and know they need to find another quarterback ASAP. If Manziel is better, the Browns can start building around him for the future. Either way, even if McCown is healthy, it’s probably time to see what Manziel can do.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/20...to-the-offense/

The last paragraph encapsulates how I feel about the QB situation. Season is lost for the most part and there is no reason to start McCown, even if Pettine feels he gives the team the best chance to win.

Start Manziel, if he tanks, you're in a position to grab a top QB. If not, take BPA and continue to build out the team. I think it is really that simple at this point.

There were only a handful of passes that he threw with two feet on the ground and those had no touch whatsoever. Every other throw was him falling backward or to the side.

Manziel's game is backyard football and we saw that last night. His biggest success came when everything else broke down. No professional sports team can win when the answer is "run around and I'll find you".

LOL That's the way that Farve played.., Like it was a kids game and they were playing the backyard. It was fun to watch.. not comparing Farve to Manziel, but they both did/do that.

I actually thought that despite what you say being true, he was fun to watch and was effective.

I'll take "fun to watch " over what we've trotted out the last 15 years.

russell wilson has done a pretty good job with that.

At this point, someone being fun to watch would be about all we have to look forward to.

I don't know if manziel has what it takes to be an NFL Qb or not. I don't know if he is as good as McCown right now. I don't know whether McCown or manziel gives us a better chance of winning. What I do know is that when McCown is in the game it is boring to watch. When manziel is in the game it is at least fun to watch. We lose when McCown starts. So what is the downside of starting manziel?

Our record sucks, the team isn't playing well as a whole. McCown may be our best chance to win or not. Don't know.

I do know that starting Manziel just to "SEE WHAT WE HAVE" seemed silly to me while we were still in it or appeared to have a chance.

Now, I don't expect to win, so damn it, entertain me. Manziel does that fairly well..

McCown

You think the scattered, frenetic thing that Manziel does in any way compares with the controlled, purposeful play of Wilson? They're night and day different.

My recollection of Farve was that he would do that sort of thing a handful of times a game, if that. The rest of the time he was content to sit back in the pocket and use that laser/rocket arm to good effect. That's a luxury that Manziel's stature and marginal arm strength will never allow him. He always has to be moving in order to find lanes to throw the ball in...

Man, this annoys me.

Wilson was a scattered, frenetic QB his rookie year. He nearly got benched. You are comparing a more seasoned QB to a QB who just made his 4th start.

He looked the same at the end of his college career. Shouldn't he have been comfortable by then? Shouldn't he be more comfortable a year and a half into his career? Wilson was a scattered, frenetic QB as a ROOKIE! He'd not had the chance to practice and play with other professionals for two off seasons and at this point 25 regular season games' worth of practice weeks.

I didn't make the comparrison to Wilson, because I don't think there is one, but I did answer it.

To a point, the WR's of Seattle's routes branch in two separate directions on a rollout based on the direction he decides to rollout to, which makes Wilson look less frenetic if that makes any sense.

I believe you need to go one step further to see if any of this makes sense.

If McCown isn't a long term answer at QB, why do they continue to trot him out there?

Actually, none of it makes sense to me.

Me either.

That does make sense but that's not exactly what I'm talking about. Wilson holds the ball in a position to throw it and his body is always under control and he always seems to be heading towards the line of scrimmage. Manziel holds the ball down by his hip and is constantly jerking this way and that, often turning his back on the line of scrimmage for long streches. It's the difference between being under control and frantic.

You are wrong about Wilson. He and Johnny have similar attributes.

Man, are you being paid to criticize Johnny? Because that is all you do and you are really, really passionate about it.

Please list these "similar attributes". This should be good. Beyond "they're both short" I can't say I see.....any.

One might say they both run well but Wilson has MUCH more lateral quickness and better balance than Manziel which allows him to have a lot better escapability when under duress. Johnny just likes to turn his back and run around a bunch.

Are you being serious, or just being your usual irritating self?

Completely serious. Thanks for the shot though.

Bam
Bam
Bam and
Bam

It was nice. At least from my point of view.

Too bad we tried to catch at least three passes with our facemask and Crow fell down on that crucial screen. Maybe they weren't playing for him. They let him down time and time again.

Django,
Did you really quote Billick today as if he is something other than the ratbird with a 15 year agenda against the Browns?

Can you explain?

Man, I can understand skepticism about Manziel. And I get people being pissed at him over last year. But I do not understand people being so absolutely positive that he does not have talent.

He went up against the best team we've played this year and played half a very good game. I liked what I saw. Not his fault the Bengals make halftime adjustments to improve and we make adjustments that make us worse.

this.

What I saw of Manziel is that he has finally come far enough along that he isn't completely lost out there. He's still in no way a threat to actually TAKE the job from McCown - which to me speaks volumes - but I couldn't care less at this point who we trot out to start.

If it's Manziel, so be it. If it's Austin Davis, cool.
If we sign Frisman Jackson... that'd be fine, too.

OK pb that one really did make me LOL

I don't believe you, but here you go:

Similarities:

--Ability to extend plays

--Arm strength is similar

--Quick feet that allows them to change directions on a dime

--Ability to make throws from many different arm angles

--Make plays when nothing is there

--The reverse pivot moves look like clones of each other

--Good in the clutch

--Keep eyes downfield while scrambling

You're welcome.

jc...

Did anyone watch Manziel's presser?

He point blank said he needs live game reps. Interesting. He knows Pett is going back to McCown.

He appeared fidgety and agitated. I am hoping that was because he's a competitor and hates to lose. Could be because he knows they will be going back to McCown and he's not happy about it. He kept rubbing his nose. I hope that wasn't a sign of something else.

Read some player quotes from yesterday, Greco and Schwartz. They both seemed pretty complimentary of Manziel. I believe Greco is one of the three TMZ sources. He's made some comments this year that have made me think he's really in Manziel's corner.

'Browns coach seems intent on crushing Johnny Manziel'

By Jonathan Lehman November 6, 2015 | 1:38pm

http://nypost.com/2015/11/06/browns-coach-seems-intent-on-crushing-johnny-manziel/

While I'm down on Pettine, he's taking way too much flak for these things he has stated. They are all true. He's just being honest. Manziel missed reads from the pocket that were there and did not require a scramble. This piling on is unbelievable.

What Pettine needs to do is recognize that both guys give the Browns the same chance to win and recognize that starting Manziel is the right thing to do for the franchise and the player. He cannot get better on the scout team. Manziel basically said it in his presser.

Now if Pett makes the call to go back to McCown, then flame away. This other criticism is unwarranted.

Wilson makes his 1st read at least before improvising. Johnny rehab still incapable of that, white stuff in his system or not.

My daughter and I were having lunch yesterday and discussing the game. She brought up Manziel celebrating by himself after the one TD. I had noticed that in the Tennessee game, too.

It seems pretty lame that guys don't celebrate w/him after he makes a really good play and/or drive that results in a TD.

And he does. Even live practice reps would help.

He got the weeks reps before the Titans game with the Titans game plan.

He got partial reps for the Card's game but didn't play until the final 2 minutes. Then he got the short-week "walk throughs" for the bengals game.

He needs reps going into the game with that week's game plan. More importantly, as he said, he needs live game reps.

If he keeps getting partial reps he's never going to be prepared for a game.

I think it was the fact that on the TD pass he was moving right and threw on the run and his momentum took him to the Browns bench. The first guy to greet him was a jubilant coach. After that the cameras went elsewhere.

If the other guys aren't on board with the QB - no matter who it is - that says more about them IMO.

I didn't see the interview, but what you're hinting at makes me wonder if Manziel is in the NFL's substance abuse program or not.

Been meaning to bring this up as well and surprised it has taken this long for someone to mention it. You don't see many congratulations for Manziel from the players when he makes a play.

Dave, it's on the Browns official site and is only 6 minutes or so. Watch it and tell me what you think.