DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2015 NFL Season Looking Back: Browns 10 Bengals 31 The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly

This is going to be tough. I hate losing to the Bengals.

The Good:

--Crow ran well. Nice vision and sharp cuts. Some power.

--Flip and/or Montgomery settled on a RB rotation for the most part. Crow the runner, Duke the passing down back.

--Johnny made plays.

--Moore's punt block.

--Des Bryant once again was our best d-lineman.


The Bad:

--Other than one play, Orchard sucked once again. Why is playing so many snaps?

--Desir gets punked every freaking game. Does he ever make a play?

--Who the hell was number 40? Are you kidding me?

--I focused on Shelton for the first time this year. He made a couple of good plays, but man, he plays too upright and blockers easily use his momentum to guide him out of the hole. Bad.

--Cooper's outside containment. Glad we got rid of Winn, Taylor, Kitchen, and Reubin.

--Glad we got rid of a younger Skrine for an older Williams.

--My sarcasm on the last two points.

--Flip abandoning the run later in the game.

--Gabriel had two balls go off his face mask and one off of his legs.

--Barnidge came back to earth.

The Ugly:

--I have defended Pet recently, but are you freaking kidding me? Johnny was keeping us in the game in the first half. So Pet says they need to keep him in the pocket more in the second half. Yeah, that freaking worked well. Sheesh. I had this conversation w/DJ and Rish earlier this week.......it is a huge mistake to try and make JM a pocket-only paser.

--The announcers talking about starting Johnny on a short week and then trying to trade Joe T and Mack. It's freaking embarrassing.

--Our record.

Good:

I thought Campbell played decently.

Bad:

Andy Lee shanked two punts.

Ugly:

2-7 and no hope.

Not only that but completely abandon the running game and with a cast of recievers I'm begining to wonder if any of them could earn a starting spot on another roster in this league.

Just asking, but is it possible Pet didn't want Johnny breaking the pocket too much for fear that he was going to break down in to bad habits and have it all devolve in to street ball?

I didn't get to see the game. In fact, I only got to listen to the second half. I had just taken a 72yr old lady to jail for DWI who blew a .17 BAC... after hearing how the second half went, I wished I was the one with a .17 BAC

The good? The Bengals team. They are very good. When you see the difference between the teams it's quite evident we are no where close to the Bengals. In any facet of the game.
They are a very well coached team. ZERO penalties at the half. I believe they had two or three all night long. That's discipline.

The bad? The Browns team. We are a bad football team. In almost every area. There is not one thing I can see us hanging our hat on. Last year we had the run. We weren't very good in a lot of areas, but we could run the ball fairly well. We scored 16 rushing touchdowns. I don't see us scoring 6 this season. Flip is pass happy as hell. In the first half we were running the ball well. Not great but we were starting, for the first time this season, to get in to a rhythm running the football. In the first half Crowell was running the ball with some passion and Duke was showing us something in the passing game as a receiver. Our glorious coaching staff recognized this and made the adjustments at half time to insure that wasn't going to continue. The put a stop to that but FAST!

The ugly? Man it doesn't get much uglier than a 2-7 start. Losing 12 of the last 14. And not the hope of a win in sight. Followed quickly by another regime change. GM search. Coaching staff search. Etc. I'm getting too damned old for this shite.

I know this, if I were Haslam I'd fire Farmer and Pettine tomorrow. I'd hire Bill Polian as Team President and his son as GM. Interim Coach would be Tabor and after the season I'd let the Polians find the next coach. I have no illusions that they are perfect. They are nowhere near. However, they are a damned sight better than anyone we have had here. I'll take it.

The good.
Manziel looked light years better than the last time
He faced the Bengals
Crowell ran with attitude
The Bryants made plays

The Bad
Schwartz got owned by Carlos Dunlap
Eifert was uncover able
Bitonio was going backwards all night
Why is Gabriel still around?

The Ugly
I saw one team that knows how to draft
And another that very poor talent evaluators
This coaching staff got out coached badly by the Bengals

But isn't that Manziel's game?

Good:

- We played sound ball the 1st half.
- Manziel looked confident and was productive.
- We seemed to play with more enthusiasm.
- Our pass rush produced more heat and 2 sacks IIRC

Bad:

- The 2nd half (except for the blocked punt).
- Starks! Two penalties...are you kidding me?
- Our record slipped another notch.

Ugly:

None...

Good

Johnny had a great drive to end the 1st half
Desmond Byrant has played his butt off the last couple of games
Campbell looks to be NFL caliber
Crow had some nice runs, which is a rarity this year for him
Duke out of the backfield continues to impress

Bad

Desir gets abused and targeted whenever I'm watching
Gipson had a very poor night
Tramon Williams had a lackluster performance
Bitonio had a lackluster performance
Barnidge turned into a pumpkin
I've grown tired of Robertson's poor hands and speed
No Turbin at all?

Ugly

Randy Starks was a turd ... INEXCUSABLE mistakes ... I would not have put him back in the game
I'm SO, SO tired of seeing our LBs isolated on crossing routes ... it's such a mismatch
I'm SO, SO tired of seeing us blitz and fail to hit home ... every. single. time.
Taylor Gabriel appeared to be on drugs or something ... dude was dropping everything
ONE FREAKING RUN IN THE SECOND HALF???
Our halftime adjustments (or lack thereof) are PATHETIC ... every. single. week.
Malcolm Johnson should not be in the NFL.
Gilbert's coverage is ATROCIOUS. I heard Dustin Fox say he's the worst 1st round pick we've ever had. I agree.
PFT should be ASHAMED and shut down. How the heck did they rate our line top 5?

I read where we've been out scored something like 58-3 in the second half of the last three games.

Wow.

jesus

Some other board members disagree, but my opinion is that it would be a mistake to force Johnny to stay in the pocket on every play. That's not his game. We knew that when we drafted him. Why take him if you only want a pocket passer? Teddy or Carr fit that description.

Last night, Johnny made some plays in the pocket. He made plays outside of the pocket. That's how we scored right before the half. He also scrambled for positive yardage.

I do think you want to keep working on his pocket passing. I do think you want to reduce his risky plays. I just don't think you should stifle his creativity. He is more of a Farve than Griese. He is more of a Wilson than Brady. He is more of Fran Tarkenton than Manning. He is more of a Rodger Staubach than Bart Star.

I just didn't get Pet saying that we needed to keep in the pocket after the kid just led us to a 92 yd. TD drive to make the game close. I heard HOF players and a pretty darn good ex qb developer say the same thing as I am. Mooch even said that he hopes they give him a chance to play or let him go somewhere else where he can play.

<<sigh>>

You know what blows my mind?

Many of us thought that the QB position was really going to hurt our chances this year.

I hated the McCown signing, yet he has played far, far better than I would have imagined.

Johnny comes in and starts for two games and plays much better than most would have expected.

We are getting our butts handed to us and no one can legitimately say it's mostly due to poor qb play.

The good:

There won't be another joke of a game to watch this Sunday, so I'll have a peaceful, non Cleveland Browns football weekend.

Bad:

Everything

Ugly :

Everything

the good:

how can you find good in a 21 point loss? i HONESTLY would cut all 53 and start over. the only way to kill the cancer on this team is to remove the entire problem.

the bad:

alex mack is NOT TRYING. and honestly, i don't blame him. he tried to leave, we matched his (one year) contract and then drafted his replacement. what a waste of time and money.

andy lee, like a true brown, was terrible when we needed him most. his two shanked punts led to 14 points.

the ugly:

our coaching staff is a tire-fire. jim o'neil is leading the WORST DEFENSE in the NFL. i hope he's enjoying his last stop in the NFL. coach pet and his conservative BS is mind numbing. you're 2-6 and playing for NOTHING. if you can't let it all hang out now, what are you going to do when you actually have something to play for?? oh wait, we found that out last year. you tank and go 0-5. 2-12 in his last 14. i hope he's enjoying his last stop in the nfl.

Agreed. You were very critical of O'Connell prior to the season start; do you attribute their (degree of) success to him or other influences?

this is cleveland clowns football at its best. we NEVER build from one year to the next.

our strengths turn to weaknesses from year to year. it makes my brain hurt to think about it.

I don't disagree with any of that Vers. And I never intended to make it sound like he needs to only play from the pocket. I was just agreeing with DJ that I wanted to see some professional pocket QB plays.

Pros from last night:
--There was this thought last year that Manziel's athleticism was not good enough at the pro level. I think we can put this to bed. I think last year he was just a major screw up, probably didn't work out and take care of his body, and pretty much just looked like trash all the way around.
--I think he has plenty of arm.
--Hit some hot reads.
--Considering his height, I don't think he's had one batted ball this year.
--Was active in reading the D presnap and pointing things out.
--Made some good throws in and out of the pocket. Professional throws.
--Guy is tough. I notice every time he gets hit, he immediately hops to his feet no matter how hard the hit.
--I thought it was noticeable him going through his progressions most of the night.
--Completely different player and much improved from last year.
--He plays with passion and competitiveness. The only guys on the Browns that play with any passion are McCown, Manziel, Johnson, and Dansby.

Cons from last night:
--I think he broke the pocket too early on a lot of plays.
--Missed some wide open receivers.
--Appeared to be afraid to throw the ball on time. See an open receiver, hesitate, throw it a second later, leaving yards on the field. The long completion to Johnson could have been a huge gainer up the field if he threw it sooner. Still a completion but threw it late and Johnson caught it at the sideline and went out of bounds.
--Inaccuracy on throws over the middle. My fear here is this is a height thing.
--I don't think I saw him change one play.

I think there is something to build on here, but he needs the game reps. Unfortunately, I think Pett will go back to McCown. One guy is 36 and has no chance of being the future. The other is 22 and needs experience in order to improve.

He's part of the problem, but not all of it.

Like I have said before, the scheme that we use has strengths and weaknesses. Here is a quick, elementary break-down:

We ask a lot of our corners to cover on the outside. I think that is why the position has been addressed heavily. However, it's hard for them to come up in run support because they are asked to cover outside and deep.

We have one LBer covering guys who run shallow crossing routes and the flat.

Whomever is on the outside of the line, whether it be the OLB or DE, often crashes down to help stop the interior run.

This leaves our defense vulnerable to plays that are run to the edges.

The good part of that defense when it's working is that it generates a lot of pressure and the qb doesn't have much time to throw. They got a lot of sacks in Buffalo and NY.

Our huge problem is that we have not generated much pressure, so we have used our LBers in coverage more and even played some quarters in coverage. Look, you either have to generate pressure or stop the run. You can't allow teams to run the ball and then give the qb all day to throw. It's suicide.


On the other hand, a big part of our problem is we don't have a ton of talent. High draft choices like Mingo, Gilber, Shelton, and Orchard aren't very good. We lost Skrine and I don't think people realized how valuable he was? The Jets love the guy. Haden is having a terrible year. Dansby is struggling to disengage from blocks. The new guys that we brought in are not playing as well as the guys we released or traded.

I think that this D can play better if it had a better scheme, but I also think this scheme would look better if it had better players.

I know that sounds like a wishy-washy statement, but I tried to give examples of why that is so.

I think you're confusing him with the other guy who's name begins with an "O-apostrophe".

Crap...........all that work for nothing.

Good post, but didn't address the quote. (Or perhaps you were responding to another poster?) Ooops, see that point has already been noted...

This game left me speechless..

the good:
JF showed some potential
the bad:
dee getting worse
the ugly
pet and farmer aren't fired yet

please jimmy hire Brian Billick to finish the year just to see what a REAL experienced h\c brings

Very critical? I could have sworn my comments were always about how he had no coaching experience. I don't recall saying that he was a terrible coach. I couldn't very well say that because he didn't have any coaching experience in the NFL.


Do I attribute the qbs success to O'Connell? Hmmmmm, not sure.

I don't think either qb is exhibiting very good mechanics. McCown holds the ball way too low, which makes him prone to fumbles. His footwork when pressured goes to hell. He gets passes batted down because he does not always throw over the top. Johnny surely doesn't have good mechanics, whether it be his feet in the pocket or his delivery. There is a reason why guys develop elbow problems.

If we look at both qbs, can we identify certain positive mechanics that both qbs are doing well? I can't think of any off the top of my head. Maybe how they square their shoulders to the receiver, especially on out routes.

I will try and watch for those types of things over the next several games. It's not something that I have been really focusing on.

I don't believe you did either. I was not clear enough in my post...

It's okay. I will try and watch for things as we go on. It's probably going to be pretty hard to tell, though. He could be helping them more w/the mental part of the game than the physical part. I don't know....

Ugly: Bengals WR's much stronger than our DB's and pushing them around like rag dolls. Tackling. Mike Pettine on the sideline. Jim O'neill as the DC. Same ole Browns, Same ole Browns.

Good:

Gilbert played over Bademosi.

I'm breaking this down by halves 'cause I am re-watching the game again..

Good:
Johnny stayed in the pocket the first half and only left when the pressure came
Johnny overall accuracy on the move and good decisions on when to run
Johnny going through progressions early on
Our second drive was really nice
Crowell's running and catching early on - sometimes he makes some good cuts and on time he schooled AJ Hawk
Run Pass mixing early on
third down pick ups - early on
We got 3 or 4 sacks..
The Nike snow commercial was pretty cool - same with the new Black Ops III
14/10 at half...better than I expected and D played decent first half ...both TD's came after 4th down conversions
Gilbert got away with PI...that is a win - maybe
Duke in the slot is a good thing - he get's open
First half - the O seemed to be in a good rhythm ... end of first half..multiple runs for positive gains
92 yard drive to close out the first half..

Bad:
First drive - Bitonio and Gecco getting pushed around
3rd and 9 - Joe false starts...man we get more penalties on 3rd down
Lee's punting
Cin going for it on 4th down and getting it
Our LB's seem to be out of position more often that not
Schwartz having a tough time - pocket seemed to collapse from his side
Starks Personal Foul
Kruger typically standing back doing nothing...
Gipson losing his man to give up the TD in the end zone
Gilbert bringing the ball out on the kick off and almost fumbling...

Ugly
concussed players and injured players...
Sanua dragging 2 players to a first down, allowing Cin to score the 2nd TD
Line up in the Neutral zone on 4th & 2 allowing 2nd TD
Duke running backwards inside the 10 losing 5 yards..
Our receiver routes seemed very short and weak
Seems like every play they said 'what a year XXX is having' when talking about the Bengal's players
Old Spice Commercials


Question for all you QB folks...Rewatching the game, Johnny e stands very flat footed when he is going through progressions - it just looks not normal. Is that correct?

How come out corners never initiate contact? When they play tight and never disrupt the routes...

I really want to comment, but it's all just a blur to me this am. I've got to the point where I'm just numb & unresponsive on every Off & Defensive possession.

The drive in first half was VG, but the veteran leader, Starks, really blew it.
How many pre-snap errors has the O line had this yr?
Again, our linebackers are the liability to the defence, constantly getting caught in the wash & too slow to cover.
O'Neil is way over his head, with two yrs of ineptitude.
The Bengals put the boots to us & made sure everyone knew it.

The majority of our players look like dead men walking ( right to the bank to cash their huge game cheques ).

I'm so tired of waiting for the one out of ten, O or D plays that resembles what other NFL teams look like.

All my hope & interest has a faint pulse & my optimism for the future is on life support.
It's really tough being a Browns fan when 99% is negative & 1% is positive.

Billick is near the top of my wish list for HC's next season. I would not bitch if they hired him.

Billick has the biggest ego of any coach I have ever seen. He was supposed to be an offensive genius with the Ravens and their offense almost always sucked.

He is also old and last coached in 2007. He would be among the last people on my list.

It's worse than that man. They preached on and on and on all off season about stopping the run. When you spend so much time and energy making that a priority and you STILL are last in the league? That really says something about coaching ability. If you work your ass off on something for an entire off season and the results are this.... you're not a very good coach.

Vers i pretty much agree with everything u had there. A big ugly to me however was the brilliant scheme that had Armonty covering a 4.4 receiver on a crossing pattern lol

Pet is clueless and trying to throw his QB under the bus in his post game was mind blowing. Only coaches that have completely lost it will do that.

Yeah you wouldn't want a guy that had his team in the playoffs almost every year and actually won a SB. No way. We must find an assistant that has never been a head coach on any level. lmao

Billick is better than any coach we've had since the return.
I want a HC this time around that's been successful AS a HC in the NFL. So Gruden, Billick, Cowher. Etc. I really don't want a first year HC with zero experience.

I read in one of the articles posted on here that Pettine was quoted as saying to Johnny: Rather than bail-out and try to run for yardage if you don't know what the defense is doing, extend the play until you do.

I thought that is what JF did for the most part. He reminds me of a smaller, faster Big Ben sometimes, scrambling around until he finds his receiver. Ben does it and he has genius level talent; Johnny does it and he should have stayed in the pocket. How would Wilson do if he was reigned in and made to stay in the pocket?

I don't understand the thinking. It's like all of a sudden extending plays for positive yardage has become a negative thing.

Mourg, I missed that. What did Pettine say about Manziel in his post game presser? I don't have time to listen right now.