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Playing Johnny Manziel is a start of what Cleveland Browns need to do now -- Terry Pluto
Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer By Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer


CLEVELAND, Ohio -- I believe Jimmy Haslam is aware of the truth, but the Browns owner needs to remind his coaching staff of a few facts.

Start with the fact that this is not a good team. Not close. Not going to be close to a good team.

Not this year, period.

Which is why the 2-7 Browns have to seriously start thinking about next year.

Perhaps the coaching staff will disagree. Coaches are often worried about their jobs. In Cleveland, who can blame them?

But is finishing 5-11 with Josh McCown any better than 3-13 or 4-12 with Johnny Manziel?

Is finishing 5-11 with Johnson Bademosi playing ahead of Justin Gilbert productive?

Of course, that's assuming McCown helps the Browns win an extra game or two. There is no way to know that.

Finally, this team has lost four in a row. In the last three games, they have been outscored 55-3 in the second half.

WHAT WE DO KNOW

But this much is certain: The team that started the 2014 season with a 7-4 record is long gone.

That is the message that Haslam needs to deliver to his coaching staff.

The Browns finished last season on a five-game losing streak. Pile that on to 2015, and they are 2-12 in their last 14 games. That's nearly a full 16-game NFL season.

The grand plans for respectability and perhaps a shot at the playoffs in 2015 have been shredded by the reality of what has happened on the field. The hopes of duplicating the style that led to last season's 7-4 start have been a dismal failure.

As I wrote a few days ago, some of this is due the Ray Farmer's drafting and free agent signings.

But some of this also falls right into the lap of Mike Pettine and his coaching staff.

I was pleased to hear Pettine finally say this: "These couple of days off should give us the opportunity to focus on what we need to do to correct the mistakes we have been making ... the brutal fact is that we're a 2-7 football team and that is not acceptable from our standpoint."

I wish he would have named Manziel starter. He did not. He still appears to be trying to decide.

POWER STRUGGLE?

I have received several emails from fans who believe Pettine and Farmer are in some sort of power struggle. The contention is that Pettine isn't playing some of Farmer's picks -- especially Manziel and Gilbert -- to prove some point. The same with Dwayne Bowe being inactive for most games.

I doubt that is the case. It makes no sense for a coach to keep talent on the bench when the season is swirling right down the drain.

Now consider this:

1. After the 2012 season, Haslam fired the coaching staff and the key football front office people. He inherited them from the previous ownership of Randy Lerner.

2. After the 2013 season, Haslam fired the coaching staff and the key football front office people. He hired those people.

3. A good way for Pettine and Farmer to end up fired is to fail to work together.

Both men have to be very aware of the recent history of the Browns under Haslam. They have only one game in the next 24 days. Come up with a viable plan for the rest of the season that also will help in 2016.

IT STARTS WITH MANZIEL

That's why they need to hand the offense over to Manziel and design game plans that accent his strengths.

I'm far more of a Manziel Doubter than a Manziel Supporter. But I also can read the calendar. McCown is 36.

And I can count. He has had one concussion this season. He was tested for another in the preseason, and tested for yet another one after the loss to the Rams.

Right now, I can't recall what supposedly is hurting McCown more -- his ribs or his shoulder?

It makes zero sense to play him on November 15 when the Browns travel to Pittsburgh. As I wrote Friday, Manziel has shown significant progress in terms of his approach and poise to at least look like an NFL quarterback.

Does he have the physical ability to succeed?

No idea.

But there are seven games left, and it's time for the Browns to begin to see if Manziel does have starting potential for 2016.
I'm far more of a Manziel Doubter than a Manziel Supporter. But I also can read the calendar. McCown is 36.

OTHERS SHOULD PLAY

Pettine finally gave some snaps (23) to Gilbert at cornerback in the loss to Cincinnati. He had played only nine total snaps on defense in the first eight games.

He had been using Bademosi over the 2014 first-rounder. The problem is Bademosi is first a special teams player. Then, he's a safety. Cornerback is third on his list of NFL skills.

As with Manziel, I have no idea if Gilbert can develop into a starter.

But Joe Haden is out with his second concussion of the season. He also has rib injuries. He's beaten up.

K'Waun Williams should continue to cover slot receivers.

But why not let Pierre Desir and Gilbert handle the other cornerback across from Tramon Williams? Why rush Haden back again? Two concussions in five weeks is serious business.

Undrafted free agent Jamie Meder is showing real promise as a defensive lineman.

The coaches have done a good job of working him in (232 snaps) this season. Here's how the other defensive linemen have played: Randy Starks (333 snaps), Danny Shelton (304 snaps), Desmond Bryant (284), John Hughes (254) and Xavier Cooper (182).

At linebacker, I'm far more interested in seeing what Nate Orchard can do as opposed to Barkevious Mingo. But the Browns can also find some snaps for Mingo.

This isn't about playing all the kids, all the time.

It is accepting the reality of the 2015 season, and how the Browns need to look at some of their younger players for 2016.

Cleveland Browns need answers about young players in secondary

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Dan Labbe, Cleveland.com By Dan Labbe, Cleveland.com



Andy Dalton looked to his right and saw the matchup he wanted. It was first-and-10 from the Browns' 27-yard line near the midway point of the second quarter and wide receiver Marvin Jones had a step on his defender, second-year cornerback Justin Gilbert.

You could argue -- and you'd probably be right -- that Gilbert should have been flagged for pass interference on the play. The fact, though, is that Gilbert wasn't when he broke up the pass in the endzone and Browns head coach Mike Pettine was happy to see it.

"I thought the one play he got beat on early, gave up an inside release on the vertical, showed his recovery speed and made a nice play in the end zone," Pettine said on Friday during a conference call.

Later in the game, at the end of the third quarter, Gilbert made the heads up play of touching Brandon Tate down on a 22-yard catch-and-run. The play was reviewed and changed to a 4-yard gain.

It may seem like grasping at straws in regards to the troubled 23-year-old drafted eighth overall in 2014. Anything from Gilbert at this point, though, is better than the nothing the team has been getting from him defensively. After returning from a training camp injury, Gilbert was active for the first time against Oakland in Week 3 and played zero of the team's 69 defensive snaps. The next week, he was on the field for eight of the team's 65 defensive snaps in San Diego. Gilbert didn't play another defensive snap until Thursady night's game in Cincinnati.

That's four games and at least 288 defensive plays. All of this despite injuries in the secondary to cornerback Joe Haden and the likes of Pierre Desir, drafted in the fourth round, and Johnson Bademosi, a special-teams ace, getting snaps at corner.

"He did some good things (Thursday night)," Pettine said. "I thought there were some times where his eyes wandered a little bit. He's got to do a better job of staying focused on his work. He made some plays."

While the topic of discussion moving forward in this lost season for the Browns will rightly focus on learning as much as possible about second-year quarterback Johnny Manziel, the Browns have a handful of players in their secondary, including Gilbert, for whom they will need to find answers.

Another such player is rookie safety Ibraheim Campbell. Campbell, out of Northwestern, was thrust into action last Sunday against Arizona when veteran Donte Whitner left the game with a concussion. Those 36 snaps were the first defensive snaps of his NFL career. He started Thursday night against the Bengals. Pettine said on Friday that Campbell has done a nice job and fellow safety Tashaun Gipson had praise for Campbell during a Monday conference call.

"I think that Campbell has come along," Gipson said, "and he came late in the game (against Arizona) and he made some big plays. They were up a little bit so the game was kind of tailored. They were more of a run (offense). I thought that he came in and did some great things -- something to build on, something to let you know that this guy can play football."

Campbell's importance is underscored by the impending free agency of Gipson and the fact that Whitner isn't getting younger.

"I like to think that I can do anything when it comes to the safety position," Campbell said on Tuesday, "but I do also consider myself a physical player. When the opportunity presents itself, I like to make sure my impact is felt on the field."

"I never doubted him playing football," Gipson said. "He fits that mold, that downhill going-to-run-through-you player attitude. I think that he made some good physical tackles (against Arizona)."

There's a wild card in the secondary as well -- rookie Charles Gaines, picked in the sixth round out of Louisville. Gaines played well in the preseason, particularly against Tampa Bay. Unfortunately for Gaines, he suffered a hamstring injury in that game and was placed on injured reserve on September 7 with a designation to return. Gaines has not been placed on the active roster yet, but he has returned to the practice field.

"He's done a real nice job. It was tough for him," Pettine said last Friday. "It's tough for those guys, whether it's (TE Randall) Telfer, whether it's (DB) Ifo (Ekpre-Olomu), whether it's Gaines, to kind of be here but not be here. It's always hard to have conversations with those guys because they're not involved with it. Even though they're around, I'm sure it's a lonely feeling."

Telfer and Ekpre-Olumu are both rookies on the team's Reserve/Non-Football Injury list. Ekpre-Olumu is another player that, while the Browns drafted him knowing that he was recovering from a severe knee injury, could play a role in the secondary in the future.

"(Gaines has) done an outstanding job of getting with (head athletic trainer) Joe Sheehan and his crew, (strength and conditioning coach) Paul Ricci and his crew," Pettine said. "He's dropped a significant amount of weight and has really changed his body in that period of time so we're very pleased with where he is coming into this time, and it's showing up on the practice field, as well."
The final seven games are bigger than just the quarterback question. When you're not trying to figure out the potential of Manziel, keep your eyes on the defensive backfield. The Browns are searching for a future there, too. Linky

So, since we all agree this year is shot, how do coaches balance winning now and putting out development players? It seems like the natural thing - from my view in the stands - start playing for next year's positions. Do we think Josh will be the starter next year? Do we think Johnny will start next year? If both are 'no' them play Johnny so he can be traded next year [good timing for his contract].

With a long week before playing the Steelers and then a BYE, sounds like a great time to shift direction and energy for the future as the 'win now' mantra just means we are a little closer to .500---imho

Pluto nails it again....

I will hurl myself off a cliff if McCown starts next year. He is a placeholder. Not the future. Either Johnny is the future, or we draft the future. The future guy should be starting. All we are doing is wasting time. So sick of the limbo that is McCown.

I feel it's important not to overlook this fact. Outside of a small handful of players (and you could lump the coaching staff in here as well), everything is up for grabs. They are auditioning for next season and it is critical for them to perform to, and for the coaches to determine, their full potential...

The people that actually think benching McCown says something negative to the team or act like it's be an unprecedented move in NFL history crack me up.

McCown's a great guy. He's a helluva soldier. I like him a lot. But we have to see what we have in Johnny so we know what to do with the really, really high draft pick we're going to get.

We are 2-7, at this stage in the game I don't think it matters now. We better to see what either JF can do if the staff believes any in him, or Austin Davis.

Well that would depend on whether you are more concerned with long or short term solutions ...

Let's see them both. Get some sets for each. We aren't running "smash mouth" offense currently. Let McCown heal; he may need to finish the season. Two QB's to sort out.

Too wrong to fix it all, and I think it is getting worse and will worsen further with same scheme and coaching philosophy. If we need to drop folks, whether sooner or later, let's get film on them, fix them if possible, or start a list of must gets. Haslam should insist on some priorities in this stretch where we will do some different things. Press and pressure, tackling, and such must be there. If you can't coach it out, the player and/or the coach need targeted IMO. I am not being a homer, just a fan who hates watching bad, dumb football. Decide how to score, especially in the second half. The pressers keep saying how the game decides flow, dictates choices, etc. Dictate the game! We do not get enough aggressiveness in a game plan. And we certainly have not been stronger in the second half.

Pluto is spot on. Pettine needs less classwork, less committee decisions, more time getting reps on what will work. And start with the defense and name a starter. Do two things that you mandate. Until something gets better, don't wrinkle it up. A "violent vanilla" approach would help us. Defense is incredibly worthless in closing out games. Go Browns.

You don't. You simply shift gears to developing the younger players, still try to win, but know that you're going to take your lumps.

LMAO! Hoyer stinks - if he wasn't from Cleveland no one would give a damn about him. Teams start inferior highly drafted QBs all of the time SO THEY CAN GET REAL EXPERIENCE! I liked Hoyer, but the fanboys here are insane. McCown is not the future - if he was in his 20s sure, but at 36 he is not the answer.

No...losing THIS year doesn't matter. The Browns have lost their way out of the playoff race. Time to look toward the future. One way to help that is to maximize drafting position. A few worthless victories do NOTHING to that end. At this point, I'm good with going 2-14 as long as it seals Farmer's fate. If Pettine goes, so be it.

I give up.

Start Manziel at QB

Start Gilbert and Bademosi at corner. No use getting Terrance Williams hurt either.

Start Shelton at Free Safety.

Start Farmer at Left Tackle and put Thomas in charge of next years draft.

After all JFF is just like Brett Favre and Russel Wilson, Gilbert is the next Deon Sanders and we just gotta see what we got.

If we are gonna lose, we might as well do our best at looking like the worst in history.

It truly baffles me that people don't understand thus season is LOST and we need to see what our young players have. If they stink, then we know and can move on.

I'm pretty sure that coaches do see what they have in practice. Everyone seems to agree that it's a bad thing that the Colts front office dictates to the coach the starting line-up and yet the fans and media who have even less football knowledge do the same thing here.

To follow that logic, Dwayne Bowe should be our starting WR. We have $9 mil invested and we need to see what we have.

I don't want the fans nor front office to dictate. That is bad, however when a season is toast, you might as well see what you have in young first round picks in order to determine what is needed in the draft. If you can't see that, think McCown is the future, or whatever else fine. Other teams do it, it us necessary. McCown is not the future, time to see what we have.

I've seen enough with McCown this year to be fine with him as starter for another year. I'm fine with JFF getting more playing time this year, but not half the season. If Josh isn't substantially healthier vs Pittsburgh, I'm fine if they put Johnny in, but if he plays Pittsburgh anything like Cincy, Johnny just isn't ready and it won't be watchable. I'd like to have a couple more watchable games this season.

Everyone seems to be calling him Russell Wilson after an outing of 15 of 33 for 168 yards, a 45.5% completion percentage and 5.1 yards per pass attempt. I thought he looked more like Charlie Frye. Looking like Charlie Frye is a heck of a lot better than he looked last year though.

If Josh is healthy, I would sit JFF till the San Francisco Game. I'd let him earn more playing time from there, but if we play him out from there, I can at least see 3 more division games thinking we might have a sliver of a chance of winning. 4 more games of misery is more palatable than 7 more games of misery.

We are going to be getting a 3rd QB in the mix no matter what. Even if Johnny plays lights out football, the front office always has to worry if he is going to fall off the wagon from now on. He's already relapsed at least once that we know of in the last 6 months.

Relapsed once already in the last 6 months? You must be talking about the 2 beers he had, when his girlfriend, drunk, got him pulled over. Not in trouble with the cops, just pulled over. Then, after talking with the cops, he was free to go. Is that the relapse you speak of?

Since we're only good for one half, maybe we should start one qb in the first half and one in the 2nd half. Then defenses really do have to game plan for two qb's and they have no real time to make adjustments. Since we can't make adjustments at all, we bring them down to our level.

This might be the smartest thing you have said yet.

Joe has to be better than Farmer regarding the draft and Farmer wants to "minimize" the qb position.

This whole "earning" thing is crap. While I agree with it in principal, with a first round QB rarely do they earn it if they are starting in their first or second season. There are plenty of guys out there like McCown that should be able to beat out a rookie (or in our case a guy that wasted a year). IMO they need game experience to grow and see if they have what it takes.

Gone are the days of sitting a QB for years. This is a win now league.

Us that support starting Johnny likely do not think he is the greatest (heck, I don't think he will succeed but I'd like to see if I'm wrong) ever, Russel Wilson, Brett Favre, etc. We need to know what we have, he didn't totally stink the joint up in his two starts, so lets at least see what we have with the guy.

So, posters are losers because hey disagree w/you?

I have seen both qbs on the field. I do not see the huge difference in performance that some of you are hanging your hat on. We have won one game w/McCown as the qb and one w/JM.

There is not a glaring difference.

I'll preface this with "I no longer care what this team does at QB - or any position. They are a colossal running joke and I've reached the point where I now only watch them for the comedy of it.".



Is the "earning it" thing really crap if your first round QB can't earn the job over a career backup??

Think about that.... you have a guy starting that most people can't wait to ditch and everybody knows isn't the answer to anything long-term, yet the Golden Child can't even take the job from him. That means that we already know what we have - we have a kid that doesn't know the game and can't play it any better than a career backup. It means we already know - or should know - that we still need a QB. Period. JFF isn't it.


If you're playing a guy just because of the draft pick spent on him, you really should have your head checked. And should be removed from your job.

Actually, I think columbusdawg just explained the scenario rather well i.e. why JFF needs to play....

This has been a trend since the return...Sitting starting QB's halfway through the season for the backup who couldn't win the job at the beginning of the season..

Losers keep losing... What this team does best..

Another trend since the return..Posting opinions that some agree on others don't.. causing arguments and fights among the board..

You can post til your blue in the face but it all comes to the same result...

Losers keep losing.. It's going to take a miracle to fix this wreck..

He used the argument of "this is a win now league" as a reason to start the guy that can't win the starting job.


I understand the sentiment, but the logic is deeply flawed on every level.

I was more referring to the idea that in many cases, a rookie or 2nd-year QB often doesn't "earn" it.... he has to play, get experience and see if he can get better.

No point in going back to McCown at this time. None. If JFF flops and isn't showing signs of improving, then we draft a QB next spring.

Edit: meant for purp

I think we draft a QB no matter what. I'd contend that it would take an almost unimaginable turnaround from Johnny for us to NOT draft a QB.

I think that is possible, yes. Unless he really impresses us IF he gets the chance.
We still might take one but maybe not in the 1st if he does ball out.

Given that Johnny has shown us pretty much nothing that he can do the job AND can be relied upon, I'd say that it is a requirement that we take one in the Top 5.

Exactly. Very few first year QB's earn it - they are handed the job because of where they were drafted. Johnny hasn't played horribly - I agree with Vers that the offense looked very much the same with either under center - so why not let him play out this lost season. There are enough games left to get an idea of what we have and go from there.

We will never know if that turnaround can be made if he doesn't play. It would be so Cleveland to not play him, trade him and then he balls out on another team. Highly unlikely, as I don't really think he has what it takes, but I'd at least like to see.

Have JM start..He does really well and convinces everyone we have our guy..

What scares me is seeing this picture playing out... Passing on a Top QB in the draft.. because the Fo is happy going into 2016 with JM as the starter and McCown as the back up and Davis as 3rd string..

Then of course JM turns into Hoyer and we see McCown again and Davis...just a horrid thought..and pray this doesn't happen.

Seems like a recurring nightmare that I want to wake up from and never have again...Some part of me way down hidden under the covers has hope for something better..

This is funny because not too long but ago we had a thread talking about the steep learning curve a lot of these QB coming out of college have. They're coming from a system where they didn't have to learn a playbook. It was no timing routes, just throw to an open guy or take off running.

And now you guys are surprised Manziel is having a hard time beating guys that have been in the league for a while? That's what's hypocritical to me. He won the heisman playing more or less backyard football, making plays out of the pocket. Of course he's gonna have a hard time learning how to play QB. His athleticism carried him through college.

Manziel needs to start. He needs live reps. Or else were gonna go into next season not knowing if we need to draft a QB or not.

And then that's a problem with our trash GM and our trash coach.

Our coach makes dumb comments about Manziel not staying in the pocket, even though Every defense in the league wants him to stay in the pocket.

I don't understand pettine on that. I also don't understand why pettine/farmer/haslam would draft a QB, who is a scrambling QB, just to tell him to not do what make him a heisman winner in the first place.

If we wanted a pocket QB, then we should've drafted one. It's these idiotic decisions from the coach and GM that makes we wish we fire both of them already.

Yes, 2 more than you are supposed to have after rehab. How many does he have on the days he's not pulled over by the cops?





Other than one QB getting twice the yards a game, twice the points a game, not abandoning clean pockets, and getting past the second read, I can really see the glaring similarities. Since they look so similar, it must mean McCown is just like Russell Wilson and Brett Farve too! We've now got two Hall of Fame QB's! I wonder if a QB needy team is gonna come calling in the off season.