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Legend
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To be fair, almost every team in the league asks their players to do similar things. Heck, I've seen guys like Suh and Ngata drop into coverage a few times.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Sorry bonefish, I explained myself and my reasoning. I cannot and probably will never predicate my opinion via stats. I just go by what I see.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
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Question - how do you rate our LB talent vs. the LB schemes we run?
Rate the LBs...well on defense the Unit most lacking in talent I think. And a 3-4 Defense is so dependent on the domination of their LBS...4-3 its the DL that has to be dominant. When I say dominant...fill those units with 1st n 2nd round impact talent.
Dansby by far is our best LB - he blitzes well pass defense is good and has explosion for the run game. He body is getting wear and tear...ILB take a beating similar to RBs so that their career now a days hard to last long.
Look at the best ILB/MLB in the game today - Kuechely. I remember draft day stuff I did advise all this guy will be the next Great MLB. He hasn't disappointed but he is getting the crap beat out of him.
Our LBs the next BEST Talent for me is MINGO...I love his long arms he actually is quite good in Zone I think he might have been put in the dog house when he didn't conform to the off season work out request to bulk up. He just is not strong enough on the edge to use those long arms to keep blockers away. Or to rush inside. But I like his burst. I know we will never do it - but I would like to see him converted to ILB and he be the guy who covers TEs a lot cause they are becoming weapons...He just doesn't have NASTY in him though for me for LB.
Kirksey is raw but I like him he has some of the best explosion in our young LBs.
Robertson should be a depth guy.
Kruger just is too slow to play OLB effectively. He might get the edge on some poor RTs outside of that his main move is a Bull Rush. Too slow to cover and too slow to dominate the edge in run games. Orchard...is a systems LB that might fit in their D...he would be much better if we had a Machine out there in that continuity thing. Individual talent hard to evaluate cause I don't know if he is thinking too much and is slow to react. But I see him as very average and he is the perfect case of if we change regimes...he would be one of the first to go cause he wouldn't fit. Doesn't have that natural talent. Again hard to tell with rookies cause they are thinking out there and not just reacting.
But we run a 3-4 Defense, its important to get a NT I think that was a wise move. I didn't like Shelton pre draft and at the time said why. But he is doing better than I thought he would. OK investment.
But LB is the most important unit for a 3-4. Dansby is excellent...Kirksey is an excellent 4th round investment (4th???) But Orchard I didn't like so much...who knows. We have to invest in more - right now the biggest mistake was taking Gilbert instead of MACK. But I don't mind investing in Cover Corner it is important. The thought was sound.
CB and Edge Rushers...go get em and often. But NFL I'm telling you all as a UNIT...1st 2nd 5th 6th round I don't care. Get the guys with the best Explosion. We lack in explosion.
I think in the run D which got better the last two games was lacking the SWARM...where the one guy would get his hands on the RB but couldn't get him down and the RB would scamper off with 10+ yards. We don't have that collective Swarm where the LB gets his hands on the RB...and instantly we got 3-4 swarming around that RB where if he breaks the tackle gets 1-2 yards. I thought we had that better. Then we got burnt with a pure Reverse which teams don't utilize like they use to. Announcers incorrectly call an end around a reverse...no the ball has to get exchanged twice to be a reverse. Perfect play for our D call. We had a 3-4 DE set as the Outside responsibility...right there we are talking about 300 lb guys or close to. We chose to run blitz the OLB crashing in down the LOS...he should have the containment responsibility cause he has the speed there.
I know I'm long winded but I like to explain cause there will be some who will take one line and mock what I'm saying.
Short version...we probably lack the talent needed for our Scheme most in LB...or any 3-4 Scheme. These guys have to be your Studs!
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 |
To be fair, almost every team in the league asks their players to do similar things. Heck, I've seen guys like Suh and Ngata drop into coverage a few times.
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
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Yes when you rush 4 you drop 7 in coverage.
The fact remains this defense is soft all around.
No one plays with a nasty streak.
It's a cupcake defense  but then I'm an odd thinking person at times...lol 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
Rate the LBs...well on defense the Unit most lacking in talent I think. And a 3-4 Defense is so dependent on the domination of their LBS I think that is a very good point and I can't believe that I haven't even thought about it.
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Joined: Apr 2007
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Apr 2007
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The stats are a reflection of what is happening and what I see.
Never have been a big stat guy but the numbers on defense are exactly what this defense is doing.
55-3 in the second half of the last three games is a bad indicator.
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Joined: Dec 2014
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
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Question - how do you rate our LB talent vs. the LB schemes we run?
Rate the LBs...well on defense the Unit most lacking in talent I think. And a 3-4 Defense is so dependent on the domination of their LBS...4-3 its the DL that has to be dominant. When I say dominant...fill those units with 1st n 2nd round impact talent.
Dansby by far is our best LB - he blitzes well pass defense is good and has explosion for the run game. He body is getting wear and tear...ILB take a beating similar to RBs so that their career now a days hard to last long.
Look at the best ILB/MLB in the game today - Kuechely. I remember draft day stuff I did advise all this guy will be the next Great MLB. He hasn't disappointed but he is getting the crap beat out of him.
Our LBs the next BEST Talent for me is MINGO...I love his long arms he actually is quite good in Zone I think he might have been put in the dog house when he didn't conform to the off season work out request to bulk up. He just is not strong enough on the edge to use those long arms to keep blockers away. Or to rush inside. But I like his burst. I know we will never do it - but I would like to see him converted to ILB and he be the guy who covers TEs a lot cause they are becoming weapons...He just doesn't have NASTY in him though for me for LB.
Kirksey is raw but I like him he has some of the best explosion in our young LBs.
Robertson should be a depth guy.
Kruger just is too slow to play OLB effectively. He might get the edge on some poor RTs outside of that his main move is a Bull Rush. Too slow to cover and too slow to dominate the edge in run games. Orchard...is a systems LB that might fit in their D...he would be much better if we had a Machine out there in that continuity thing. Individual talent hard to evaluate cause I don't know if he is thinking too much and is slow to react. But I see him as very average and he is the perfect case of if we change regimes...he would be one of the first to go cause he wouldn't fit. Doesn't have that natural talent. Again hard to tell with rookies cause they are thinking out there and not just reacting.
But we run a 3-4 Defense, its important to get a NT I think that was a wise move. I didn't like Shelton pre draft and at the time said why. But he is doing better than I thought he would. OK investment.
But LB is the most important unit for a 3-4. Dansby is excellent...Kirksey is an excellent 4th round investment (4th???) But Orchard I didn't like so much...who knows. We have to invest in more - right now the biggest mistake was taking Gilbert instead of MACK. But I don't mind investing in Cover Corner it is important. The thought was sound.
CB and Edge Rushers...go get em and often. But NFL I'm telling you all as a UNIT...1st 2nd 5th 6th round I don't care. Get the guys with the best Explosion. We lack in explosion.
I think in the run D which got better the last two games was lacking the SWARM...where the one guy would get his hands on the RB but couldn't get him down and the RB would scamper off with 10+ yards. We don't have that collective Swarm where the LB gets his hands on the RB...and instantly we got 3-4 swarming around that RB where if he breaks the tackle gets 1-2 yards. I thought we had that better. Then we got burnt with a pure Reverse which teams don't utilize like they use to. Announcers incorrectly call an end around a reverse...no the ball has to get exchanged twice to be a reverse. Perfect play for our D call. We had a 3-4 DE set as the Outside responsibility...right there we are talking about 300 lb guys or close to. We chose to run blitz the OLB crashing in down the LOS...he should have the containment responsibility cause he has the speed there.
I know I'm long winded but I like to explain cause there will be some who will take one line and mock what I'm saying.
Short version...we probably lack the talent needed for our Scheme most in LB...or any 3-4 Scheme. These guys have to be your Studs! Thank you much for that! I have been trying to break down the game [trying to[ on the DVR after reading how you all seem to do it. It is interesting to watch individual players on the same play - both O and D as it reveals little nuances that impact the play - both positive and negative. there is like little games with the game and it is pretty interesting. Kruger for one like you mentioned - his lack of speed seems obvious when i watch it again... Stay tuned for more questions! 
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." [Mark Twain]
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,197
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Apr 2007
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We all want continuity.
Continuity means in most cases that things are going well.
However, something is wrong here. You don't go 2-12 and play like this team is playing.
I could live with what has been shown with the offense. The defense is a whole different thing.
This team was expected to be a good defensive team. They are not good at all or even close to being good.
They have tried different guys. They have had good game plans. In the end it has not mattered.
Getting beat 55-3 in the second half shows me a team expecting failure.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,202
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
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Aside from Joe Thomas I don't care if the entire roster is gone. This kind of explains some things.. Of all the positions a LT rumored to be traded gets everyone fired up.. He's the best player on the team... Takes me back to when Phil Dawson was leaving...People getting all fired up over a Kicker.. So lets see... A LT and a Kicker being the main players of late.. Yep.. a hell of a roster we have / had...
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Joined: Jan 2009
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Legend
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Legend
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Not sure what you are trying to say. Left tackles are much more important than kickers.
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OP
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thats as good as breakdown you'll hear anywhere...spot on man.
I think the Browns LB'er they really have troubles shedding blocks and changing direction.
overall they don't mesh or fit. they don't compliment each other.
would not be surprised if the unit was overhauled in 2016.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Hall of Famer
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I was saying it's a shame that a LT and a Kicker were the ones making the impact... Not having a QB WR Etc as the ones we were getting all fired up over for leaving.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
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Just remember there were those who got all fired up about trading Trent
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,202
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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I forgot all about that ... LOL SMH !!!
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Legend
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Legend
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Dansby by far is our best LB I contend that Dansby is our ONLY LB. Kruger is a misused DE who was signed for his pass-rushing ability yet is now being asked to perform pass coverage. Everyone else in that group is a backup or a scrub.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
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Purp...can you move this to pure football. I know it was put in this forum that will be wiped out soon. But it seems like a pure football subject and one of the few that is actually being discussed.
jmhSuggestion
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 12,635
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
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Dansby by far is our best LB I contend that Dansby is our ONLY LB. Kruger is a misused DE who was signed for his pass-rushing ability yet is now being asked to perform pass coverage. Everyone else in that group is a backup or a scrub. I do like all our inside backers minus Tank Carder (so Kirk and Craig (only when Craig is playing at a high level, which IMO he has been)) but our OLB garden/patch is growing nothing but stinky, rotten turds. Purp covered Kruger, we take someone who was very successful last year and destroy that. Good job Jimmy O'Niel. Nate Orchard, if you've not watched this kid my best advice to you is... continue that. Mingo, yeah he's a solid cover LB'er. I actually do think he's very exceptional at dropping, outside Dansby he's our best cover LB'er no questions... but he's only good at that and that only. Waste. Tank Carder, this dude Jimmy O'Niel once said was our best rushing linebacker, LOL - for that comment alone I believe Jimmy needs to pack up his bags and kiss his buddy's Pettine on the cheek on the way OUT of Cleveland! Armonty Bryant, when he's not being asked to cover WRs, he's awesome at the run and the rush when he's in the linebacking spot. But I didn't mention him above because he's a better interior linemen IMO.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Does anyone actually like this
current roster and it's lack of
character.
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