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But when the protection is lacking most of the time, how else is a guy to react?
Well.............it's one of the toughest things in life to do. No, I am not exaggerating. I wonder how many people in the world would be able to stand in a small area, concentrate on what's going on down field, and maintain proper mechanics when huge, strong, fast, mean men are trying to break you in half?
It's a gift, ddubia. But somehow, the great ones manage to pull it off. That's one of the main reasons they are franchise QBs. There are also other guys who may not have been franchise QBs who were functional because of this. The greatest one I ever saw at this was Steve DeBerg. The guy never once flinched in the face of the rush. I remember how he frustrated me when we played him. We would be barreling down on him.......any other QB would have ducked out of the way, tried to roll out, stepped to the side, etc.....but this crazy stands tall, doesn't adjust his mechanics, and throws a perfect pass to a tightly covered receiver....time after time after time. Incredible. He was one gutsy SOB! And I'm telling you something.......I'm not sure if I could praise a guy more.
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I would much apprecitate an explanation of the difference between reading coverages and reading defenses. Only for the sake of wanting to learn.
I have an inkling that reading coverages is post snap
Glad someone asked.... *L*
Yes, you read defenses pre-snap. A good QB can read tendencies in a D before the snap. Actually, Kelly Holcomb was great at this. You watch a lot of film, you are a pretty smart guy, and you pretty much know what the D is going to do on that particular play. Down and distance, spot on the field, score, time remaining, etc are all factored in. Let me give you an example. It's 2nd and 10, ball on your own 35 in the 2nd quarter. You notice that the D looks to be lined up in a Cover 3 D and our playing their strong side DE a little bit more on the outside shoulder of your OT than usual. The SS is moving up to the line and then backing off, but the key is that he is moving. Well, as a QB who can read defenses......you know from that teams tendencies, that they like to blitz the SS in this particular situation and the DE and SS are also giving you some clues. You audible out of a 5-step drop pass play to a quick pass to the flat [that's been vacated by the SS] to your RB.
Reading coverages comes both pre and post snap. I don't know how much you know, so it's hard to know how much to say w/out either boring you w/redundant BS or skipping relevant information. Btw......this is where KH struggled.
Let me start w/Cover 3. That means that the field is divided into thirds. The FS has the deep middle between the hash marks and the corners have the areas outside of the hashes on the respective sides. The SS normally covers the flat on the strong side. The LBers drop and cover the short to intermediate middle of the field. It's my favorite type of coverage.....but knowing just the little that I gave you...........where do you beat that D?
Cover Zero - Strict man-to-man coverage with no help from free safeties (usually a blitz play with at least five men crossing the line of scrimmage) Where is the weakness here?
Cover One - Man-to-man coverage with at least one safety not assigned a player to cover who can help out on deep pass routes. How would you beat this coverage?
Cover 2 is where the CBs again have coverage outside the hashes, but will press a bit more on the shorter to intermediate routes. Both the SS and FS line up deep, typically about 12 yds. off the LOS. One is shading one hash mark, the other is shading towards the other hash. Guess how they know which side of the field to pick when they are lining up? And guess what the weakness of this D is? What about it's strength?
Now, there are all kinds of coverages that combine those three that I talked about. Hell, there is even a Cover 6. LOL Teams might line up showing a Cover 3, but post snap, they will change it to a Cover 5. And a lot of the differences are not in the width of the coverages, but the over/under stuff.
So.......what does that have to do w/my original comment? Well, let's say you are a young QB and you come to the LOS. You have worked hard at your film study and you are a smart guy. You correctly recognize the D by the alignment, the down and distance, etc and all their tendencies that you have picked-up on film. You see they are in a standard Cover 3 and correctly identify a blitz from the strong side backer. You just know the quick slant to your WR, [not your flanker] will work. You audible....and the WR moves inside a bit. You are licking your chops. You drop back.........it's all setting up nicely........and this is w/in 2.1 seconds, but the coverage has become a Cover 5 instead of a Cover 3, which is relatively easy to do. Guess who is right in the spot where you are going to throw the quick slant?
Hey ddubia..............ever see a throw in the middle of the field like that where everyone is wondering what the hell the QB was thinking? You hear the announcers or the drunks at the bar say......"he threw it right to him, what was he thinking?" Well, that is because the QB may have read the defense correctly, but he totally blew it on reading the coverage.
Does that make sense? Not sure if I described it well.
One more thing. While reading coverages is way harder than reading defenses........don't underestimate reading defenses. Getting favorable match-ups is huge. And sometimes bro.........checking to a running play, such as a draw or a trap....can kill a defense.
Please tell me if I wasn't clear on things. Sometimes, I wish I had a board on the boards. *L* If I could draw them up for you, it would be easier to understand.
Last edited by Versatile Dawg; 05/28/07 12:35 AM.
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Makes a ton of sense to me. Very good points. For those who can understand what he's talking about he makes very good points.
And yes, Kelly Holcomb was great at reading pre-snap defenses but terrible at reading coverages. He's probably the prototype of what you're talking about.
I sure hope Quinn is good at reading coverages.
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Let me start w/Cover 3
You covered if the SS is blitzing already. From what I understand cover 3 is a run defense. I would assume play action fake to freeze the backers and hit a crossing route over the backers. To help clear out the middle you would run a deep post to stretch the deep middle zone.
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Cover 2
Stretch one side of the field with two deep routes and go underneath to a TE or back where the corner has vacated.
EDIT
Would it be better to draw both safeties to the outsides and run a seam route to a TE covered by a backer? I'm too tired, my brain hurts... 
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Cover Zero
Quick slant to the side where the blitz is coming from. If there is no blitz attack deep man to man coverage.
It's almost 2 am and I didn't put alot of thought into this. Whether or not there is a blitz and from where is important because you would want to attck the zones vacated.
Last edited by Pdawg; 05/28/07 02:00 AM.
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Lot of good stuff going around on this thead. Oh so much is on a wait and see in regards to transition for the NFL.
Just would like to add one observance.
"It's a gift, ddubia. But somehow, the great ones manage to pull it off. That's one of the main reasons they are franchise QBs."
More often than not - I see teams who vastly invest in the surrounding environment of the said "Franchise QBs" which of course would include OL.
A vast majority of highly invested in QBs - talent can be debated to the last breath. But if you scrutinize them...a vast majority of the failured ones didn't have the support in building around their investment.
Sure the lucky few who had OL invested to protect them were more apt to stay calm consistantly when the few breakdowns occurred and keep their attention down field and make a few side steps here n there - hailed as terrific pocket sense as it broke down. But the key word is "Pocket" cause mostly they had one to recognize and feel the breakdown without breaking their concentration down field.
But the ones who failed - oh so many times simply didn't have a pocket, Ever and were hit so many times they would start to anticipate the hits even when they weren't there.
Look at the success of someone I know you had no respect for as a QB...yes even Couch when teams were way ahead and in prevent and only bringing 3 rushers...he would actually be able to sit in the pocket without much worries and did most of his damage that he did in his career - and yes actually pulled some games out, almost all from being way behind.
JMHO - environment? or Inate Genes? Its been a discussion on many fronts not only QBs...I'll take that Dollar Mortimore 
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I wanna play ... and thanks for the breakdown .... was wondering if u were gonna add anythng "good" to the thread for a change ...  and BQ can do both BTW .. i think u said that in your previous post ... but he can ... a few examples before i play ..... 1. when he got to the line he would call blocking schemes (preyyt amazing to have your QB do that) .. he would also have 2 base plays he could choose from .. a run and a pass ... (if u knew Wies .. you'd know just how amazing this was ... he didnt let Tom Brady do any of this stuff till his 3rd year as starter .. u have to EARN IT ... ) ... he could also alter the pass via sight contact with the reciever ... he would read the D and then choose the run or the pass and then could change to the alternate pass route with the WR he saw something with via sight ... so i guess this isnt an example of what u were talking about but just how much RESPONSIBILITY he did have ... and to EARN that resposnibility he was WELL VERSED IN READING D'S ... so i guess it is an example .. *L* .. 2. Reading Coverages ... he had his pre snap reads ... that would DICTATE TO HIM what to do post snap .. and he did it well and u know he did it .. sometimes he would read his key and throw the quick slant ... other times he'd read his keys and then go away from the quick slant and go to the other side of the field with the ball ... and on this one it was done in alot less than 2 seconds ... as on a quick slant the ball has to be gone then ,... other times u would see him read the safeties or linebackers ( u can't tell who he was reading but u know he was reading them) and then make his decision on where to go .... u saw him look at one WR and the throw the ball sometimes ... other times he'd look one way and read the coverage and go another way ... on some plays he'd look at 3 or 4 recievers before making a throw ... he is also very good at looking off the safeties ... he improved on this over his last two years ... he did it alot more his Sr. year ... another example is the Georgia Tech game .. we are down 10 - 0 with 8 secs left before the half ... we have it 3rd and goal from their 4 yard line ... with no timeouts left .. so this is the last play before the half ... there set up in a D with the middle of the field wide open ..... the ML was in the end zone about 3 yards deep for some reason .... BQ comes up to the line and he starts pointing and making adjustments (looked alot like manning many many times this year as far as that goes .. ) ... he then takes the snap and reads the MLber as he takes a few steps back ... sees the MLber moving to the TE side of the field so BQ takes off up the gut for 6 ... he said he had two options on the play he called ... his run or to hit his TE behind the LBer who moved closer to the line once the snap took place ... granted this is really really simple ... but it shows his thought proccess and how quick on his feet he truely is ... OK ... I'm gonna post this and then go play ... *L*... I do want to leave anyone still paying any attention to this thread as I suspect most have stopped at this point ... I found this by wies the other day and said .. SOB ... wonder where i heard this before?? *L* ... and i'm not posting this to toot my horn .. but to let u guys in on just how football smart this kid is ... this is from Wies ... "Whoever takes Brady is going to get a combination of Tommy (Brady) and Peyton (Manning)," Notre Dame coach Charlie Weis told Sirius Satellite Radio. "I've heard from at least 20 teams that this was the closest (combine interview) they've had to Peyton's (in 1998)."
thats pretty high praise .... and from a guy that wouldn't say things that weren't true ... Wies is not a fluff master topush his own agenda ... if he didnt believe it he wouldn't say it ... he asked one reporter who questioned him on that if the reporter thought he was Stupid .. Wies said his word as a man means to much to him to say things he doesn't believe are true .. just another glimpse of what i all ready know that u guys are going to be THRILLED TO EXPERIENCE .....
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Nice post Vers! I always sort of understood it, but that really helps for someone who never played football!
<><
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Vers, great post, but I have one question.
Are you using the terms defense and coverage as one in the same? I don't see where you differentiate between the two yet there are several comments where it would indicate they are two different things. It's possible I'm just missing something here.
Are you saying defense is pre-snap but becomes a coverage post snap or if it's only a pass play?
Or could you have just written the whole explanation using one term or the other but distinguishing between the two as pre and post snap?
I'm just trying to learn and digest what you wrote. Great information. Thanks.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Let me start w/Cover 3. That means that the field is divided into thirds. The FS has the deep middle between the hash marks and the corners have the areas outside of the hashes on the respective sides. The SS normally covers the flat on the strong side. The LBers drop and cover the short to intermediate middle of the field. It's my favorite type of coverage.....but knowing just the little that I gave you...........where do you beat that D?
I thought I was asking the questions around here. *L*
But I'll take a shot.
Get the SS occupied by the TE. Throw between the LB's and the FS either to your slot receiver or have your slot and one of the WRs cross in the LB's area hoping to cause a coverage mistake. If the LBs don't get confused and don't make that mistake, look off the FS and throw to one of your WRs one-on-one.
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Cover Zero - Strict man-to-man coverage with no help from free safeties (usually a blitz play with at least five men crossing the line of scrimmage) Where is the weakness here?
The weakness here has to be in the strength of the QB in reading just where the blitz is coming/going to come from. Throw to the area vacated by a/the blitzer or, if the pre-snap read is shows a give-away, audible to a run. Perhaps a draw to give the blitzer/s time to committ.
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Cover One - Man-to-man coverage with at least one safety not assigned a player to cover who can help out on deep pass routes. How would you beat this coverage?
With your best mismatch on one side or the other deep. The defense would already know your best mismatch so the remaining Safety may want to shade to that side in anticipation, in which case you could go to the other side. A bit of a guessing game there. An audible to a run is an option here as well if you have enough potential receivers to pre-occupy the anticipated coverage.
Hey look, I'm still playing. *LOL*
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Cover 2 is where the CBs again have coverage outside the hashes, but will press a bit more on the shorter to intermediate routes. Both the SS and FS line up deep, typically about 12 yds. off the LOS. One is shading one hash mark, the other is shading towards the other hash. Guess how they know which side of the field to pick when they are lining up? And guess what the weakness of this D is? What about it's strength?
Damn, three in one!
Guess how they know which side of the field to pick when they are lining up?
That would be based on the offensive formation and the possible mismatches it looks like they are trying to create.
And guess what the weakness of this D is?
The run, if only the offense actually has the talent on the line and at RB to run the ball. If they don't. they'll see a lot of Cover 2.
What about it's strength?
It takes away deep routes forcing everything short to intermediate. But there's plenty of coverage there as well. We usually dump off to a RB two yards out since we can't run for crap.
*There is a very small, short window of opportunity deeper, as say, when a CB passes his deep man off to a Safety. But that would call for an incredible read by both the QB and the WR and an even more incredibly accurately timed throw by the QB. I think I've seen it. It's beautiful.
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Now, there are all kinds of coverages that combine those three that I talked about. Hell, there is even a Cover 6. LOL Teams might line up showing a Cover 3, but post snap, they will change it to a Cover 5. And a lot of the differences are not in the width of the coverages, but the over/under stuff.
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You see they are in a standard Cover 3 and correctly identify a blitz from the strong side backer. You just know the quick slant to your WR, [not your flanker] will work. You audible....and the WR moves inside a bit. You are licking your chops. You drop back.........it's all setting up nicely........and this is w/in 2.1 seconds, but the coverage has become a Cover 5 instead of a Cover 3, which is relatively easy to do. Guess who is right in the spot where you are going to throw the quick slant?
This is where all the reads are not on the QB alone. His receivers also have to read the hocus-pocus and come up with the same conclusion as the QB so they can adjust their routes and be where the QB expects them to be. Mistakes or a lack of recognition on the part of either of them gets them nothing gainful.
If the lack of quick reaction is due to a lack of experience, the QB holds the ball while he figures out what to do, (or while waiting for a WR to finally make an adjustment). All too often the QB may bail, (for either reason), as the defense is getting the extra time to apply pressure. Especially vs. a suspect O-line. Then it's a free-for-all.
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Please tell me if I wasn't clear on things.
Your descriptions were clear enough. But I was looking for the easy way out where you would ask the questions then give the answers so I didn't have to think or embarass myself by answering publicly. *LOL*
But I took a shot.
I know I answered these matter-of-factly as though I knew what I was talking about but the actual answers will likely give me away. *LOL*
It'd be great to get a critique on where I was right or wrong and why.
I just don't want to have to run gassers every time I messed up. *LOL*
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Pressure and Pressure.
You guys got me me Under pressure..(great song)...*L*...That I`am going to go open my pool and not get involved with this ...And drink some Ice cold Margaritas......
This is...really a great read from all the guys who are putting in there great posts....
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Every once in awhile, I add something good. *L*
Yeah, I think The Mighty Quinn's biggest strength is his football IQ. It's obvious that he works very hard preparing himself and is a bright kid. That's huge. His knowledge and how he prepares himself are what gives me hope for the kid.
My only concerns are what I brought up earlier:
Handling pressure----both types.
Accuracy, although not as much. As I said before, I think his occasional accuracy problems are more due to mechanics, which are affected by the pressure.
One more thing, bro. I heard that BQs passes were pretty bad during the OTAs. He couldn't throw a spiral and wasn't getting much velocity on the ball. I never heard his arm strength being a concern before. What's up w/that?
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Are you using the terms defense and coverage as one in the same? I don't see where you differentiate between the two yet there are several comments where it would indicate they are two different things. It's possible I'm just missing something here.
No, I wasn't trying to imply they are one in the same. In fact, I was trying to say they were completely different. *L*
Truth be told, I had just finished watching the Cavs and had quite a few drinks in me. Perhaps I wasn't clear.
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Are you saying defense is pre-snap but becomes a coverage post snap or if it's only a pass play?
Or could you have just written the whole explanation using one term or the other but distinguishing between the two as pre and post snap?
LOL........now, you are confusing me.
Here is a brief explanation of what I meant to say.
Defenses and coverages are two different things. A defense is what the D lines up in, such as various types of 30 defenses, 40 defenses, 50 defenses, and even 60 defenses. There are things like an Eagle defense, but they can still be covered by one of the numbered defenses. A lot of people said we played a 3-4 D last year, which obviously, is a 30 defense. They may have called it a 3-4, but it was more of a 50 defense than it was a true 30 defense. I think the reason for it was that Wimbley wasn't used much in pass coverage and they also had to line up both OLBs on the LOS in a lame attempt to generate a pass rush.
Coverages, like the ones I mentioned in my preceding post.......are the types of coverages the DBs play. They can be utilized in many of the defenses that I mentioned in the paragraph above.
<<sigh>> Why do I feel like I am confusing you more? Anyway.....my point in bringing the whole thing up was that too many people say a QB is struggling reading defenses, but in reality, that particular QB may have read the defense correctly, but was confused by the coverage. Many teams mix up their coverages quite effectively. And you have to realize, that the QB has to read it and deliver the football in about 2 seconds. That 4 second rule people used to talk about is all but gone in today's NFL. Unless you are playing the Browns, of course. *L*
Hope that helps a bit. I have a feeling it is still unclear, so just ask me another question and I'll try and answer. Maybe we need to go in steps. I am not feeling real ambitious right now.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
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I'm not going to grade either you or PDawg. Like I said in the post before, I had quite a few drinks. I really didn't intend my post to be a quiz....LOL.......but, I put the questions in to help demonstrate how complex the situation is. Again, the QB has to read all that w/crazed animals bearing down upon him in less than 2 seconds. Hell, I didn't even factor in the athletic ability of both the offensive and defensive players. And I was trying to demonstrate that defenses and coverages are not one in the same and that too many people think they are the same. Tell me......how many times have you heard someone say "he doesn't read coverages very well." As opposed to, "he doesn't read defenses very well." I contend that more QBs struggle w/reading coverages than they do defenses. Btw.........you didn't do that bad on most of the answers. 
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Well according to Winslow, no one can cover him, so just throw it to him no matter what the defense is  Honestly though, it matters who is covering who, what the coverage is, if you recognize it ETC... The best I've seen at this is Peyton Manning (he also has loads of talent around him.) but regardless, he knows his stuff.
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Why do I feel like I am confusing you more?
Vers, actually that was quite clear. No need to go any further.
Honestly, I've been watching football nearly my whole life (I never played organized football, although I would have made a hell of a receiver...  ), but I just never had it broken down to me like that. I mean you think you know, but until somebody takes the time to explain it, you really only know a part of the story.
Everything is now clear as mud...LOL...actually, it is very clear. Appreciate you taking the time to clear that up.
btw, the Cavs game was a good reason to get drunk. Maybe LBJ has finally arrived...
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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I really didn't intend my post to be a quiz....LOL.......but, I put the questions in to help demonstrate how complex the situation is.
And here I thought if I didn't answer them I would have been considered having ducked the challenge.
And now that I understand the intent in your including the questions, I realize that there are many, many, many more questions you could have posed regarding each of those coverage schemes, and, that there are many more coverage schemes that are spin-offs or tweaks of the ones you mentioned. Which may total up to dozens of questions a QB has to mentally sort through as he pre-snap reads the defense then takes the snap.
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Again, the QB has to read all that w/crazed animals bearing down upon him in less than 2 seconds.
Tall order indeed.
Which brings me finally full-circle and back to the topic of the post and that is Brady Quinn.
As good as he is advertised, he is still going to struggle with these far more sophisticated defenses and coverages than some fans are willing to look at. It's only natural.
And if you factor in the pressure issues you brought up it will be even tougher for him, although I do hope our line does a much better job than they have been.
But, as has been pointed out before, even though we've upgraded the talent across the line, the right side is still up in the air in as far as who will man which spots, the new guys are new and the rookie is a rookie. None of that bodes well for a rookie quarterback who will be facing defenses and coverages he's not only never seen, but being played at a speed that will knock his socks off.
That's why I'm a big proponent of Frye starting this season. Granted, the line will take time to gel, but, out of the gate it will be better than he is used to. He's already gotten a hard look at game speed, defenses and coverages. With a year under his belt and better protection the whole thing is an upgrade for him. For Frye, everthing should be easier than it was last season.
For Quinn, it's all new and very well may be overwhelming. One can say that he too has been used to poor line play. And he has. But not at these speeds and not vs. these types of defenses and coverages. The arguement could also be made that his superior skills could shorten his learning curve. And they might. But for Quinn, it will be harder than it was last season. There's no doubt in that.
I'd like the Browns to teach him defenses and coverages via the scout team so he is very familiar with them in a fundimental, practical and functional sense by the time he steps on the field. With that background of practice, game speed should be his only real, unexperienced challenge to overcome. Still it won't be easy. Think Carson Palmer who sat for a full season and then struggled for the first half-a-season when he did start.
Too many make it sound like it will be easy.
I guess I say all this because there is so much talk of all the upgraded talent across the offensive line, at the running back position, and now with a franchise quarterback, that there's no excuses anymore to not become winners. Big year for the big fella on the hotseat. 
But Brady will struggle when he first starts, so will Joe Thomas, so will the rest of the offensive line as they work together to gel, and so will the new OC as he learns what his players can and cannot do in this new offense.
The overall talent is better, but it's a new offense with new players, and they're all starting from scratch.
Especially the rookies of which Brady Quinn is one.
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Tell me......how many times have you heard someone say "he doesn't read coverages very well." As opposed to, "he doesn't read defenses very well."
They always say "defenses" which now leads me to wonder how many of them really know what they're talking about. It reminds me of those who say they like the "footwork" of a particular lineman. I wonder: do they even know what the footwork should be or are they just repeating something they heard someone else say?
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Btw.........you didn't do that bad on most of the answers.
I'll take that as a solid, almost a "C".
One more thing...last season, I learned from you, eotab, and a few others including a high school coach from my hometown who played for WVa., about the complexity of the "game within the game" that offensive linemen play and how it is much more than simply blocking the guy in front of them. It really opened my eyes to the degree of intelligence and athletisim needed to play in the trenches. Thank God for the DVR which enabled me to get a closer look at them over and over again.
It looks like this season I'll be spending a lot of time trying to understand coverages and how to beat them. Too bad the TV never backs-off and shows the DB's.
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Now there were 3 things that went public that Charlie worked with him on ...
1. how he lined up under center ... his hands were to high and he adjusted his feet slightly that made his hands lower and at a better angle to release his hips to get into his drops ....
2. his footwork on his drops was very sloppy ....
3. his front foot (like what Pete and Vers talked about) and its angle and distance on passes ... he used to throw all his passes like that ... i think he completed about 55% of his passes his soph yr.(STATS ARE FOR LOSERS!!!!! ... SO i DOTN KNOW MANY OF THEM .. .. ) ..... that was because of his bad footwork and the fact he got his ass kicked and was running for his life on most plays ...
SO THE BIG RIBBING WAS COMPLETION % and the 3 main things he worked with him on were all drop/throwing mechanics ....
Yes that helps..these were things he did improve on..
I think the difference with BQ will be the smarts ..the ability to read a D..THE ABILITY if he has time to, to run the offense ..in all reality te Browns have better talent(for once) than the Irish did, but it's going to take time for that talent to emerge..
The area where Frye struggles is reading D's and coverages..and/or trying to make a play DISPITE the coverage he sees..
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Finally took the time to finish reading all of it.. Great post or book...as you call it  It really broke down what the essentials were with Brady Quinn... Major brownie points from BrowniePoints
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Quote:
Everything is now clear as mud...LOL...actually, it is very clear.
LOL........clear as mud, huh...
It's strange trying to explain things on a message board. First of all, the range of knowledge is very wide. Some people probably know very little and others a lot, while many have a working knowledge. If you get too complex, you'll lose most people and that would ruin the intent of trying to educate. However, if you gloss it over, some of the more informed posters will think you are full of . *L*
Also, I think it is better to learn in segments instead of throwing a lot of info at people in one sitting. Then again, if that is your intent........some wise-ass like me will say.........."Sheesh, how could you leave out [fill in the blank]?"
And yeah.............Go Cavs!!!! I really think they are the better team.....they just don't know it yet.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Just a general reply/question, I think it's a pretty good one.
Did playing with inferior talent help or hurt BQ?
On one hand, he doesn't get to practice against a defense with SEC speed, nor play with receivers that have SEC speed.
On the other hand, he never had the luxury of merely waiting for his receivers to blow past the secondary so he could just throw a bomb that no defender was anywhere near (Russell is the perfect example of this, especially in the Sugar Bowl).
Thoughts?
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I bet your teachers loved you in school. You are a great student. Quote:
And now that I understand the intent in your including the questions, I realize that there are many, many, many more questions you could have posed regarding each of those coverage schemes, and, that there are many more coverage schemes that are spin-offs or tweaks of the ones you mentioned. Which may total up to dozens of questions a QB has to mentally sort through as he pre-snap reads the defense then takes the snap.
Exactly! I didn't delve very deep into the process at all and I still had to write quite a bit to do it. Hell, it wasn't even a skeletal body of work.
Many teams are very good at disguising their coverages and mixing them up. For example, a team can be playing a lot of Cover 3 and the QB comes to the LOS and it looks like they are in Cover 3 again. The QB and WR are licking their chops because they think they exploit the weak side corner, but once the ball is snapped, they change into a Cover 4, which is where the corners and safeties dropping into deep coverage and taking 1/4 of the field, leaving the underneath to the linebackers. If the QB and WR don't read that coverage right, the FS is now in position to help the weak side corner and that is an extremely risky pass.
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Which brings me finally full-circle and back to the topic of the post and that is Brady Quinn.
As good as he is advertised, he is still going to struggle with these far more sophisticated defenses and coverages than some fans are willing to look at. It's only natural.
And if you factor in the pressure issues you brought up it will be even tougher for him, although I do hope our line does a much better job than they have been.
I always loved having students like you.
Yeah, that was my intent all along. How does this relate to BQ? Yes, he is very intelligent and you can bet he will prepare himself. However, as we all know, the NFL game is light years ahead of the college game in terms of speed and complexity.
And if you do indeed factor in what I said about pressure and mechanics, then you are risking damaging this kid big time.
We absolutely do not want this kid to develop poor mechanics that will hinder, if not ruin, his future!!!
Your Carson Palmer example was right on. They sat him for a year and he still struggled for over half a year. And he has better mechanics than BQ.
Your point about the OL is dead-on too. Yes, it will be improved. But, it's not going to go from being the 2nd worst line in the NFL to a "good" OL in less than one year. Rookie LTs do struggle. And there are huge questions on the right side. There is absolutely no continuity on the line and that is why I was arguing w/Diam on the other thread that if the Browns want Shaffer to move to the right side, do it now. Cut the , because we all know that Joe is going to beat him out anyway. But, that's for another thread.
Look ddubia.......you and I always lose these arguments w/the mob, so take it for what it is worth. Starting BQ at any point this year would be a monumental mistake. I want the kid to sit the entire year. Give him the job next year. I have heard that is the plan, but as we've seen in the past, this organization often caves-in to fan and media pressure. And shaddup Diam.........they do!
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They always say "defenses" which now leads me to wonder how many of them really know what they're talking about. It reminds me of those who say they like the "footwork" of a particular lineman. I wonder: do they even know what the footwork should be or are they just repeating something they heard someone else say?
LOL.....exactly. I remember when I was pimping Joe right after the bowl game this year and a few people came on saying how his footwork sucked. I challenged them to explain it to me, but they got huffy and said I had an attitude. *L* I do have an attitude, but I was dying to hear their "explanation." 
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It looks like this season I'll be spending a lot of time trying to understand coverages and how to beat them. Too bad the TV never backs-off and shows the DB's.
Good luck on that one. You rarely see the overhead shots that are necessary to distinguish coverages. And even when you do, you gotta know what you are looking for.
Do you remember when there was the big push to get Mo fired? And people were saying how pathetic the play-calling was? I used to say.........you don't even know what defense the other team is in, nevermind knowing what coverage they are in........so how in the hell can you say it was a poor call? It's people talking out of their ass to try and sound intelligent. 
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I'll take that as a solid, almost a "C"
It wasn't below a C. And what's more...........you get an A+ on this last post! Seriously, that was one hell of a post.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Good question, but I can't answer it.
Look at it this way. In the majority of BQs games, Notre Dame had the superior talent. They certainly had more than Army, Navy, William & Mary & Baby Jesus, etc. LOL
And it's one of the reasons people bring up BQs performance in big games. A lot of his gaudy stats were accumulated against the have-nots of the world.
And Diam........I am not knocking BQ for that. He didn't make the schedule. LOL
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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And it's one of the reasons people bring up BQs performance in big games. A lot of his gaudy stats were accumulated against the have-nots of the world.
A thought here.. The knock on BQ is the big game performance..well if the team is overmatched against the Michigan's-OSU's-USC's- LSU's..it makes HIM look bad yet not factoring in the ability of the team to protect him and a lead, etc.. IF ND had even talent, it makes that equation easier to dissect. Now ironically the knock on the more physically talented QB Russell, was that his supporting cast at LSU was SUPERIOR yet his MENTAL abilities are the question mark..can he read a D? Wonder how it would have been had Russell played at ND and Quinn at LSU 
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Quote:
One more thing, bro. I heard that BQs passes were pretty bad during the OTAs. He couldn't throw a spiral and wasn't getting much velocity on the ball. I never heard his arm strength being a concern before. What's up w/that?
The pressure got to him; much like it got to him in his 3 big Games his senior year at ND. 42%, 48% and 50% completion percentage in those 3 games.
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Quote:
One more thing, bro. I heard that BQs passes were pretty bad during the OTAs. He couldn't throw a spiral and wasn't getting much velocity on the ball. I never heard his arm strength being a concern before. What's up w/that?
From what I've heard .. they changed his arm angle at release to deal with the wind off the lake .... guess he was pretty bad his first day ....
after practice that day he stood after and worked on it ... since then hes back to his old self ... NO WORRIES MATE ...
gotta run .. will play later .. looking forward to it .. and i wanna be GRADED HARD ... *L* ... and i wont cheat and read ddubs responses and your repsonses to him ...
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Look ddubia.......you and I always lose these arguments w/the mob, so take it for what it is worth. Starting BQ at any point this year would be a monumental mistake.
I already have teeth marks in my ass for suggesting that right after the draft. People can keep yapping and chewing all the want, BQ should still not be starting THIS season.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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A vast majority of highly invested in QBs - talent can be debated to the last breath. But if you scrutinize them...a vast majority of the failured ones didn't have the support in building around their investment.
your trying to simplify things way to much ... way to much .. and at the same time your complicating things way to much ... *LOL* ...
SUCCESS at QB in the NFL can be traced back to two things ...
BRAINS AND ACCURACY ... its really that simple ... is their exceptions .. sure .. but FEW AND FAR BETWEEN ...
Favre, Elway are truely the only exceptions and they both were ACCURATE AS HELL ... just made QUESTIONABLE DECISIONS ... and if u look at Elway .. he ACHIEVED TEAM SUCCESS when he quit being a gun slinger and making bad decisions ...
really .. look at the QB's that have FAILED and SUCCEEDED over the last 20 years ...
Montana, Manning, Brady, Young, Aikman, Marino, Palmer and the list goes on and on .... then theres the next tier of succesful QB,s .... Garcia, Kosar, Brees, Simms, Gannon, Hassleback and again the list goes on and on ...
then theirs the coveted FAILURES .... Leaf, Smith, Klingler, Boller, Dilfer, Shuler, Leftwich and again the list goes on and on ... these guys all had MAD PHYSICAL SKILLS with great arms ...
there failures weren't because of their OL's or supporting casts ... their faluires were because they had ACCURACY and Decision making issues .. well Leaf was just a moron ... so i shouldn't include him to be fair ..
now were about to find out about David Carr ... hopefully he will be given a chance to play behind a decent OL .. Harrington could play behind the best OL ever and still struggle ... struggles big time with both accuracy and decision making and that has nuttin to do with OL ..
look at guys like Archie Manning and Bert Jones .. they played on HORRIBLE TEAMS but were still GREAT QB'S ... and Jim Plunkett was HORRIBLE in NE with a bad supporting cast but he was still a GOOD QB as proven when he went to the Faiders and won 2 SB's ..
the SUPPORTING CAST allows QB's the OPPORTUNITY TO WIN ... not to determine weather there good or not .. those are entirely different things ...
and it works both ways bro .. U have had GREAT LT'S that never won ... doesn't mean they were any less GREAT ... just meant the SUPPORTING CAST didnt help them get there ...
and look at Favre when he won his SB .. his starting LT was a rook or 2nd year guy named Ross Verba .. he was a VERY BAD LT when he played here ... how bad was he his 1st or 2nd year ... and the rest of that OL wasn't very good either ...
Willie Roaf is the first example that pops to mind .. One of the best LT's over the last 20 years and he never sniffed winning ... Anthony Munoz ....
its a two way street tabber .. they help each other out ... Thomas/Stien will NO DOUBT be a HUGE ASSET for BQ ... but he will also HELP MAKE THEM LOOK BETTER .....
a QB that can't throw the ball accurately or make decisions has no chance at success ... NONE .. like Dilfer they may win because of the supporting cast .. but that doesn't make them GOOD QB'S .. and no OL or supporting cast could ...
we could keep debating and talking about this till the cows come home .. at the end of the day bro .. all that really matters to us is ...
what came first the chicken or the egg?? WHO CARES WE GOT THEM BOTH ...
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Ah the all powerful GM has spoken so now its fact ..  you sound like the morons now ... ALL SITUATIONS ARE THE SAME ... other than death, this is the only thing i know of in life without exceptions ... SHALLOW MINDED THINKING ... good idea ... just stick everyone in the same category .. good idea ... and remember I am absolutely fine with him sitting all year .. the FACT u guys won't consider anything else is just mind boggling .. and STUPID .. i expect more out of u than that ...
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Ah the all powerful GM has spoken so now its fact ..
Your damn skippy and don't you forget it
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you sound like the morons now ... ALL SITUATIONS ARE THE SAME ... other than death, this is the only thing i know of in life without exceptions ...
WOOHOO more teeth marks Did I say every situation was the same? Nope not once did I. Do I still think Rookie QB's should not start in the NFL...YEP, but there are a few exceptions. You didn't hear me saying Big Ben shouldn't start his rookie season did you...NOPE.
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SHALLOW MINDED THINKING ... good idea ... just stick everyone in the same category .. good idea ...
Every Rookie QB should be in the same category. What makes the difference is the team around them, not just them. Just because I don't make long winded Moby Dick like novels when I post doesn't mean I don't know the score bro.
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and remember I am absolutely fine with him sitting all year .. the FACT u guys won't consider anything else is just mind boggling .. and STUPID .. i expect more out of u than that ...
Sorry to disapoint you bud, but like you like to say, there is nothing wrong with disagreeing right
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Quote:
Quote:
Ah the all powerful GM has spoken so now its fact ..
Your damn skippy and don't you forget it
Quote:
you sound like the morons now ... ALL SITUATIONS ARE THE SAME ... other than death, this is the only thing i know of in life without exceptions ...
WOOHOO more teeth marks Did I say every situation was the same? Nope not once did I. Do I still think Rookie QB's should not start in the NFL...YEP, but there are a few exceptions. You didn't hear me saying Big Ben shouldn't start his rookie season did you...NOPE.
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SHALLOW MINDED THINKING ... good idea ... just stick everyone in the same category .. good idea ...
Every Rookie QB should be in the same category. What makes the difference is the team around them, not just them. Just because I don't make long winded Moby Dick like novels when I post doesn't mean I don't know the score bro.
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and remember I am absolutely fine with him sitting all year .. the FACT u guys won't consider anything else is just mind boggling .. and STUPID .. i expect more out of u than that ...
Sorry to disapoint you bud, but like you like to say, there is nothing wrong with disagreeing right
I'll throw this bone out there to pick at then...
If Jamal Lewis is back to 2003 form, and the line seems to be MUCH improved even before having time to gel as a unit, why not put Quinn out there if he's outperforming the competition in camp? He'll have his breakaway wideout, safety valve TE, posession guy, and runningback. I do think the defense will be a top 15 D this year if the O can give them some help, as well.
Joe will struggle, but I expect Steinbach to hold his own allowing Joe to grow (unlike the Andruzzi debacle). Keep in mind that Joe's gonna have a hell of a training camp partner to bring him along quickly: Kamerion Wimbley. The whole left side should be able to go one on one with their assignment without having to doubleteam. This includes Fraley. I believe he got the short end of the stick by having to play with CRAP beside him.
I feel really good about this line, even though they haven't had a chance to play together yet. I don't know why. Maybe it's false confidence since on paper it's above and beyond anything we've seen since '99.
I wanna see BQ on the field this year sooner rather than later, my best guess will be after the bye week. If he learns as fast as Diam says he does, I think he'll be ready to go sooner rather than later. He'll have his moments of brilliance, and moments where we'll want to bury our heads in the sand, but if he keeps improving, that's all we can ask for. He has to have a good chunk on-field experience before '08 if we expect him to perform like a legit starter in '08, unless we're in serious playoff contention in '07 (doubtful).
I may be overly optimistic, like I am every offseason, but this is the time for it. I don't think he'll be ruined by starting this year, though. Unless the line completely collapses.
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then theirs the coveted FAILURES .... Leaf, Smith, Klingler, Boller, Dilfer, Shuler, Leftwich and again the list goes on and on
Wow did you just call a Super Bowl winning QB a Failure?
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If Jamal Lewis is back to 2003 form, and the line seems to be MUCH improved even before having time to gel as a unit, why not put Quinn out there if he's outperforming the competition in camp?
Because CAMP is not the same thing as real NFL action.
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I wanna see BQ on the field this year sooner rather than later, my best guess will be after the bye week.
Many people WANT to see him on the field early. I still think thats a mistake. Many people wanted to see Charlie on the field early during his rookie season also, and I still say he would have been better off not starting until last season.
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If he learns as fast as Diam says he does, I think he'll be ready to go sooner rather than later.
and Diam might be right or he might be wrong. Only time will tell.
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He has to have a good chunk on-field experience before '08 if we expect him to perform like a legit starter in '08,
He could still be preforming well by the end of 2008. The Browns are not going to be in position to be a serious threat until 2009 anyway.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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I'm with you on this one. Unless BQ is going to bring us a Superbowl Victory this season, he could sit and learn for a year.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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'09??????????????
Even if we build slowly I think we've gotta be ready to be wildcard contenders next year. Hell, I think QB play will be what will hold us back this year, especially if Jamal runs like we hope he will.
That's not an overinflated view of our team. It's the honest truth, we have to be ready to do some damage next year, if not getting lucky this year and falling just short of the playoffs.
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Playoffs this year....... ain't gonna happen (as much as it hurts me to say that) next year sneaking into the playoffs then getting beat early...... MAYBE but what good does that do anybody? 2009 A chance to win the division, and a chance to go deep in the playoffs or further. Thats what we need to be shooting for right now.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Playoffs this year....... ain't gonna happen (as much as it hurts me to say that) next year sneaking into the playoffs then getting beat early...... MAYBE but what good does that do anybody? 2009 A chance to win the division, and a chance to go deep in the playoffs or further. Thats what we need to be shooting for right now.
I agree. I'd be amazed if we made the playoffs this year, but I expect us to be playing meaningful ball into December falling just short. Maybe with a heartbreaker via things not falling the right way out of our control.
'08, if we draft as well as I hope and have another productive FA class, I could see us getting past the first round.
The NFL is so close with talent, and on paper I don't think we're as behind as we once were. Good QB play can mask a lot of deficiencies as well (think of the Colts and Patriots (with their WR deficiency), more specifically the Colts). Which is why I feel we need to get Quinn ready for '08, if he can play better than any QB we've had since '99, that will go a LONG way if we continue to build the team.
If we made it in '02 with a team that on paper looks like junk compared to this one, we could do it in '08 or maybe even this year (but I won't hold my breath on that one, I don't expect to do it with a rookie QB or a junk QB, even if the rest of the team outperforms that '02 team).
We saw what the running game did for us in the 2nd half of '02. If Jamal Lewis is anything superior to William Green was, behind a line that on paper is better than the '02 line, we should win more than we think we will.
Then again, I just might be too optimistic.
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This team is only going to win 6 or 7 games at tops.
New LT
New LG
New RG
New RT
It's going to take at least half the season for the O-Line to gel as a unit.
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I agree. I'd be amazed if we made the playoffs this year, but I expect us to be playing meaningful ball into December falling just short. Maybe with a heartbreaker via things not falling the right way out of our control.
7-9 this year IF we get lucky. So no playoffs for the Browns.
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'08, if we draft as well as I hope and have another productive FA class, I could see us getting past the first round.
2008 = no first round pick, plus a need for depth on the O-line, Plus defensive lineman, a CB, a WR, and a RB.
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Then again, I just might be too optimistic.
and there is nothing at all wrong with that
I am just trying to keep it real for you.,
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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This team is only going to win 6 or 7 games at tops.
New LT
New LG
New RG
New RT
It's going to take at least half the season for the O-Line to gel as a unit.
We may only win 6 or 7 games but I think the fault will be with the D, especially the D line. I think the offense will be much improved over last year no matter who the QB will be. Our O line will be better at every position this year. The Chargers proved a few years ago that increasing the talent level of the line can outweigh the need to gel.
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I disagree..the D has been in this scheme for 3 years and added pieces..no, not superstar pieces but upgrades...and perhaps a better NT in Smith..
Thats the key..
We do have better parts in the defensive backfield so hopefully if the players (Bodden) can stay healthy it should be better..
The offense ..well I've seen this time after time..new line..new RB..I think it will struggle early on..and maybe start to have a flow by midseason..
Oh of course the QB will have a lot to do with that..and I've voiced my feelings on CF..
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I found this article..which coincides with what you reminded me of. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/30/sports...amp;oref=slogin Weis’s coaching method with Quinn was strikingly similar to what he did with Brady as the Patriots’ offensive coordinator. He applied plenty of pressure on Quinn in practice and made him repeat plays until he got them right.
Weis taught Quinn the concepts of the offense, not just the plays, a strategy that places a burden on a player’s intelligence. Quinn watched hours of film, including tapes of Brady in New England.
Weis placed one other call on draft day, to Crennel, who said the main point was clear: “He called and said, ‘You’d have been crazy if you hadn’t made the move to get him.’ ”
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