DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Playing Johnny its a start (Terry Pluto)

I'd prefer Paxton Lynch to both of those guys.

6' 7" 245 pounder, can make all the throws and can run.

He'll most likely be the first QB drafted, so unless we have the #1 pick he is probably out of our league.

The only things I see with him that need work:

1) Like most college players he needs to work on his footwork.

2) He squeezes the ball too much with his passing hand and that sometimes affects his spiral. It flutters too often for my taste.

3) His throwing motion looks good, but I think it can be shortened.

4) I'd also like to see him put on a little more weight. 245 is actually a bit skinny given his height.

The things I like:

1) Despite attacking with the ball downfield more than most QB's he has an amazing 69.1 completion percentage and only 2 ints in 327 attempts.

2) His ball placement is perfect and he always seems to put the ball exactly where it needs to be.

3) His pre-snap reads and coverage reads are at a level equal to NFL veteran QB's. If we can't get him in the draft, I'd like to get the guy that's coaching this kid as our QB coach.

4)You just don't see 6' 7" QB's that are this mobile.


Just my 2 cents, but I view him as having a high ceiling and a high floor.

We need a big QB

j/c:

For what it's worth.....

Cleveland Browns: Johnny Manziel clearing up QB situation for team

The Cleveland Browns are poised to select a quarterback in the 2016 NFL Draft and Johnny Manziel is helping them come to that conclusion. There is a lot to be said about Manziel’s improvement and overall development just in the past year is notable and deserving of credit, but where he is currently is as a quarterback, his behavior off the field and the Browns likely positioning in the NFL Draft make it difficult for them to bet their fortunes just on Manziel as the future of the franchise.

Manziel has genuinely improved over the course of 2015. After a 2014 where Manziel was handpicked by the owner, Jimmy Haslam, and dealt with his own demons, he made some important life decisions and put himself on a better path.

The difference between Manziel in week 2 against the Tennessee Titans and Week 9 against the Cincinnati Bengals was notable and something on which to build. He is at a point where he is ready to learn by playing, which was not the case after the Tennessee game. Still, Manziel has a lot of work left to do as a quarterback and is not at the point where he has shown enough to be a franchise guy.

The problem for Manziel is when he has had some measure of success at varying point, it is immediately followed up by behavior that puts him right back into question. After showing some progress against the Bengals, albeit in a loss, he went back to Texas and had a party where he is photographed hosting a party with beers in hand and girls on his arm. For most players, this is not necessarily a big deal, but when it comes to Manziel who did go to rehab (presumably although not confirmed to be for alcohol), this is behavior that would suggest he is at the very least engaging in addict-like behavior.

After he was involved in a traffic stop where he had been drinking but was ruled to be sober by police, his former high school coach and mentor expressed concern, saying that alcohol of any kind would be a bad idea. Manziel was not cited and did nothing illegal according to law enforcement but for the Browns, this raises concerns.

No one could expect that any addict would be perfect. There are going to be ups and downs, but for the second time in a couple weeks, Manziel has been caught drinking in public. This does not mean Manziel will not ultimately end up on the right path when it comes to this, but from a pure football standpoint, it is a tall order for a team to say they can safely rely on Manziel to be a consistent leader of a team. Like it or not, there are different expectations and criteria when it comes to being the face of a franchise and the unquestioned leader of the team. In that respect, there are too many obvious concerns with Manziel.

Manziel brings so much charisma and energy to the table that people are moved to root for him to succeed. Every time he makes a big play or strings a drive together, it is intoxicating how easy it is to feel like he can be a good quarterback. As it stands right now, as much as people want him to succeed, he has to match that passion with his own work ethic and desire to be great. As much as everyone wants him to succeed, the only real argument that can go against taking a quarterback in 2016 is because the prospects simply are not good enough or better than what Manziel is and has shown.

This does not mean the Browns do not need to give up on or get rid of Manziel. The best course of action is to keep him and keep developing him with the possibility of being a franchise quarterback in mind. Consistency in his life and a comfort level with the coaching staff may be the best things for him in the long run, both on and off the field. There is value in that for Manziel as well as the Browns. He has talent and is worth keeping. At the very least, he could be a good backup quarterback, but still has upside to get to another level if he can put in the work and avoid personal pitfalls.

This gets to the decision of playing him now. There is nothing wrong with Manziel playing out the rest of the season to see what he can do and head coach Pettine even acknowledged this logic. However, since Pettine arrived, he has also been consistent in saying that he will play the best player. For some, this logic appears to be old fashioned, stilted and out of touch with where Browns are going. It is also easier. Much easier.

The easiest frame work for a coach to work with is playing the best guy. This gets out of nonsense politics, is consistent and understood with players and favoritism is largely taken out of the equation. Simply put, if Pettine just throws Manziel out there even though Josh McCown has been better every step of the way, it opens the door for other positions and that seems to be something Pettine is unwilling to do.

This week against the Steelers, Manziel should start to allow McCown to get the full benefit of his ribs recovering for over three weeks and then they have to reevaluate the situation, which is exactly what Pettine has said.

This may also reveal just where the team is with Manziel. They picked him, they like his talent and appreciate what they can do, but they also know he is not there yet and he is battling some real life challenges – challenges he will battle for the rest of his life. The team has likely embraced the reality that nothing Manziel can do the rest of this year is going to change the fact they need to add another other legitimate option at the quarterback position.

In the event that happens, the Browns will have Manziel, a drafted quarterback and either Josh McCown or Austin Davis as their third quarterback. More than likely this would be McCown, since he offers the ability to play well enough and has the ability to act as a mentor – a position he has already embraced with Manziel.

The Browns currently (and hopefully will still have next year) an offensive coordinator rooted in coaching quarterbacks in John DeFilippo as well as a quarterbacks coach players love in Kevin O’Connell.

There might not be a better pair of coaches to be assigned to the task of developing both Manziel and a rookie quarterback for this team, giving the Browns two shots at finding the answer at quarterback. As much as that sounds redundant and they should be focused on one guy, the history of the team since it came back says take as many quality shots as possible.

Depending on which quarterback the Browns pick and where the team feels they are in their development, Manziel could well end up opening the 2016 season as the starter. He is obviously ahead in terms of understanding the offense and if (big if) he embraces a full NFL offseason working to improve his craft, he could really come in and look good heading into 2016. This would allow their rookie to get comfortable with the transition to the NFL as well as the offense, putting that player in the best possible situation to succeed.

The frustration with fans that want to see what Manziel can do is understandable, but the fact of the matter is short of divine intervention, the Browns are in the market for another quarterback.

http://nflspinzone.com/2015/11/11/cleveland-browns-johnny-manziel-clearing-qb-situation-team/

I don't think you need a tinfoil hat to think this, with they way things are going it's a definite possibility. My only question would be, why even play Manziel if he's not in the plans? Just make Austin Davis QB2, there is no way he is less ready than Manziel.

sigh...

I wish this team could find a franchise frikking QB.

well, to be fair, they've so far only played Manziel when they've had to and only be cause he's the backup. Why he's ahead of Austin Davis is anyone's guess, but he is.

Perhaps they're just trying to keep some of the people on this board form their head exploding? If Manziel really were demoted to QB3 there'd been a mad rush to the Superior bridge for a jumping party and then who'd entertain us on DT.net? LOL

Oh no, there's more.....

That's why they were "shopping" Thomas, Mack and other players. To draft impact O players to build around the new QB!

Next year was going to be the year when everything changed. When everything turned around. Well, accept for that 31st placed D.



A team of destiny!

mac suggested that we were trading Joe Thomas to the Broncos because Haslam is friends with Peyton Manning.

You know..........I really don't see any HUGE Johnny fans on this board. There are probably a couple. Maybe that new guy, Tex Brown, but who else LOVES him? Name the guys.

On the other hand, there are several of you who absolutely despise him. You discredit him at every opportunity. You make fun of others who simply want to see the kid play. You ignore his good plays. You magnify the bad plays.

You should not be throwing stones while living in a glass house.

I am his biggest fan.

He is Russell Wilson and Brett Farve combined and when he retires they will name the Superbowl trophy after him.

Most of us doubt he'll ever even be a legit starter. I am simply addressing your ludicrous claim about poster's heads exploding and once again pointing out your hate for a guy who really hasn't played all that much.

It's odd, because I always read comments like: "Can we allow him to play a few seasons before we trash him?"

Yet, JM hasn't hardly played at all, and guys like you, Purp, Stetson, etc trash him like he did the big nasty w/your momma.

Hah, it seems that merely being critical of him and stating that he isn't ready to play - when he isn't ready to play - is "trashing him", lol! Woe is He who takes a stance counter to the great and mighty Vers, lol!!


As for the "heads exploding" thing... dude, your sarcasm detector royally blows, and you have the sense of humor of a gnat. You really need to learn to lighten up, Francis.

Vers, I know I shouldn't respond, but...! I actually believe Johnny can be a franchise QB. Even weirder I think Pettine is going about it the right way. Johnny is a kid there is time. Browns can build the other parts using McCown as a stop gap. IF Johnny falls flat, you have an established team making it more an ideal environment for another rookie. Right now handing the keys to a rookie is "Tim Couch" in the making. Build a team and stop with the obsession QB first or die attitude. I get Browns can't win until they find a QB. It is also true they can't make a rookie QB competitive without a supporting cast.

The head exploding thing was mine and just so we're clear, I wasn't actually saying that people's head would explode, or that they'd jump off a bridge. I thought the context would indicate a joke but next time I'll change the color of my font.

I'm a big fan of letting draft picks play to see if they work out which is why I'm not willing to say that Farmer's first round picks are garbage as many are saying. My concerns about Manziel go well beyond the game day, yet there's little enough that we have seen on the field to encourage me to cut him slack. I was just as harsh on Gordon when he was contributing mightly to tanking the end of last season for us and he at one point actually showed ability.

I'm all for letting the draft picks play too. Manziel, Erving, Gilbert, Orchard etc. Let Bowe play to earn his salary and Winston too. We have to see what we have to make better personnel decisions this offseason. We're out of it anyway this is all we have left, getting ready for next year. As usual.

The problem with that is we have a core of guys who bust their collective asses to win each week. Once you throw in the towel to forgo winning in exchange for "seeing what ya got", I'll bet that knocks the wind out of those guys.

Yeah, I can see how the rational side wondering why that idiot Pettine won't bench the guy that's playing well and play Johnny. Basic NFL QB skills are over-rated. We won't actually destroy a guy lacking the basic skills of making 3 reads in the pocket, planting his feet, and making an NFL throw by throwing him out to the wolves.

As I keep saying, He is not ready YET.

I think the people that really want to destroy Johnny, are the ones that want to throw him out there with the skills he has right now. I am the first person to say that he has improved a lot from last year, but he still has a long way to go. Those skills can still be improved if he wants too.

Now on his personal life, I do have some hate. Johnny had a choice this weekend after his first start. He could study his own game film and figure out what he could be doing better so when he comes in on Tuesday he is prepared better to start his next game, or he could go party in Texas. He picked what was more important to him.

In the last 2 weeks the guy that just got out of rehab for most likely alcohol has made news for having alcohol twice not even 6 months out of rehab. If I were his coach he wouldn't be on my team for that reason, not because of his talent. How can a coach build a team around a guy that he can't count on being there.

The rational side has already said.

"He's Russell Wilson"

"He's Brett Farve"

"The coach is an idiot for not starting him."

"There was a conspiracy in place to have McCown get hurt right before the Cincy game to make him look bad."

"The coach was an idiot for saying that he needed to calm down a bit and stop running out of the pocket as soon as he gets the snap."

"The coach should have had a separate offense in place to showcase his talents."

Sorry Verse, but this time I don't agree with the rational side.

I think you'll eventually get over it.

McCown has played well but has one win so 'best chance' is now irrelevant. Just play Manziel, make these last seven games interesting and maybe he can surprise us. This is getting old.

Yes it is getting old. I can't explain how you ruin Johnny by doing that any differently.

Johnny needs game reps. There is nothing happening to him in the games that are going to ruin him. He can't get better playing on the scout team during the week. Manziel said this himself in his presser after the game last week.

The only reason to start McCown at this point is to spite his co-workers and boss, and I think Pettine likes the thought of that.

Meanwhile, Minn, Jax, and Oak are all enjoying watching their QBs grow and develop and making their fans excited about the future. David Carr won three freaking games last year. Three. But look how that experience paid off.

We have McCown taking valuable reps from a young guy who needs reps in the worst way. And you have a coach who is allowing it and an owner who won't back his coach.

Man, this team is so depressing.

Johnny is a QB that can't make basic reads and throw in the pocket right now. So 1 of 2 things are going to happen to the 5'11" 205 lb QB

1) He is going to get clobbered from the blind-side sitting in the pocket trying to make a read.

2) He is just going to try to keep running till he gets injured.

Now you tell me what happens to a running QB that can't throw in the pocket once he has a knee injury or a back injury?

How's RG3 looking right now?

The third thing that is going to happen regardless is that he practices and reinforces bad habits that you can't break during the season.

It takes 1000 reps to break a single bad habit. That's just to break it, not to install the correct habit. You can't change throwing motion or footwork during games. It has to be instinct before you get on the field.

Yes some QB's you can put on the field right away and they can grow on the field. Those QB's have the basic pocket skills to be able to do that.

How many QB's have the Jags, Raiders, and Vikings tried before they hit on these 3? You can argue Garrard was solid and wasn't that long ago, but he sat for 2 years behind Byron Leftwich. Oakland has had almost as many QB's as us since 99. Daunte Culpepper was prob the last decent one for the Vikings.

You might as well be saying other people win the lottery why don't I win when I play it?

So let's look at the logic.

If we did play Johnny...

Will we win more games? No, McCown puts more points on the board.

Will Johnny get better? No, You can't fix what is broken with Johnny on the field, he'll just practice bad habits.

Could he get worse? Yes, There is a pretty good chance that he will get hurt as much as he runs, and if it is something that slows him down,then game over.

If for some strange reason he actually does suddenly play well, will that keep the Browns from going after a QB in the offseason? No, they would still have to get someone to insure Johnny falling off the wagon.

So the only real reason to play Johnny is to please all those fans that bought their jersies and think he's the answer to everything.

This.

We are a bad team. Our 'best chance' at winning has more to do with the other team playing down to our level than anything we can trot onto the field. We are not close enough to where we can win with either McCown or Manziel. McCown has been light years beyond what we thought he'd be and we still can't win.

We are a bad team.

If we go with McCown, and the O doesn't play well because McCown is still struggling, this will be Pettine's last game as head coach. The change will come Monday or Tuesday as we head in to the bye week.

Scary thing is Peen... Who would take over ? let the season play out

Would it really matter who took over?

yes it would...I believe it would just make the Browns look even worse..

Not intended to defend starting McCown, although I know it sounds a bit like it, I think the defense can take some heat for McCown not winning more than one of those games.

So maybe it's true that he is the "best chance to win". And maybe the reason a lot of fans, not all the fans, but a lot of fans want to see Johnny start is to at least make the games interesting and something to look forward to on Sundays other than the same old losing with nothing to take from it.

At least with the "Johnny Team" we can have discussions on what was good and what needs fixing. With the "McCown Team" it's just the same old, "who gives a crap,,, I'm tired of feeling like this after a game".

Maybe so. I just don't care what the Browns look like in the media.

I am not calling for Pettine to be canned. I am just saying that if Pet sticks with a wounded McCown and our O doesn't play well, then maybe he isn't about playing who gives us the best chance.

I am with the play Manziel crowd. It's time to put the speculation on Manziel to rest. It's time to put the ball in his hands and let him take it the rest of the season. If it doesn't happen this week, it needs to happen after the bye.

Two words.....

Alec.
Scheiner.

I'll add a third...

3) He can get himself on game film, study that, see what he has done and how he can improve, (with the help of his position coach and OC), and then go back out there and try to be better next time. Do that enough times, while getting all the practice reps, and I can see a QB improving quickly.

What I don't think works nearly as well is getting no practice reps and no game reps nor getting himself on film and expecting him to improve to the point he plays like a veteran.

The only way to play like a veteran is to become one.

I agree..I still think Haslam / Farmer may be the ones wanting to start McCown..

This is far fetched.. I'm thinking Haslam has been embarrassed enough in the public with his Pilot J . With JM's off the field issues and public embarrassing actions maybe Haslam said enough's enough..

Coaches are set in their ways.. it just might be what Pet wants...It's all on him how this season evolves.

As HC ?

I think Memphis was kidding.. I hope so anyway

Johnny Manziel defends his weekend, doesn't expect NFL discipline and doesn't want to be benched

updated November 11, 2015 at 7:06 PM
link

Berea, Ohio -- Johnny Manziel once again defended his right to party, revealed he doesn't expect to be disciplined by the NFL and admits being benched for Sunday's game in Pitttsburgh in favor of Josh McCown would be hard.

He also acknowledged that it's tough to throw over 6-7 guys when you're only 5' 11-1/2'', which is why he rolls out so much.

Fresh off a long weekend at Texas A&M, where he served as an honorary captain for the Aggies loss to Auburn, Manziel insisted that folks are getting the wrong impression of photos of him out and about in College Station.

"I've changed and adapted my lifestyle incredibly since last year,'' said Manziel, who spent 10 weeks in an addiction treatment facility in the offseason. "We did get some time off this week. For me, my personal life is my personal life. At the same time, I got a chance and an incredible opportunity to go back to a place that myself and a ton of other teammates at Texas A&M helped build and, with the help of donors and the success that we had in all of those years, built an incredible stadium.

"It was probably one of the nicest things I've ever seen and I got to go back to a place that, they had so much love for me there and got to see so many old teammates and old coaches and just watch a game in that stadium with family and friends. Luck of the draw for me that it worked out that way and being able to go back home. I think it was an awesome time for me and I was really excited to be back in Aggieland."

He was aware that the photos of him enjoying the college social scene Instagram and Twitter while the coaches pondered whether or not to start him Sunday in Pittsburgh raised eyebrows. Manziel took all the first-team reps Wednesday while Josh McCown mostly rested his sore ribs. At this point, McCown's probably got only about a 50-50 chance of playing.

"I think there's going to continue to always be a cloud over my head from everything that's happened in the past,'' said Manziel, who lived it up from coast to coast last year before checking himself into rehab. "That's not going to go away. I'm sure any time anybody sees me in any type of aspect or any type of situation the way that anything would've been before, they're just going to say, 'oh, he's back to doing the same thing over and over again.' I'm smart enough to have learned a lot over my past year and a half of my life, that's for sure."

As for photos which were reminiscent of his wilder days, he said, "I probably took 2,000 pictures this weekend and just those are the ones that happened to be blasted out onto social media. Took a lot of pictures with a lot of people and I think I made a lot of people happy, so I can't really control who does what with those and what people say about them."

He said the Browns didn't mention his weekend activities. The players and coaches had three days off after Thursay night's 31-10 loss to the Bengals.

"No,'' he said. "I came back and talked to the coaching staff just as always, looking forward to the next week. Getting ready to play Pittsburgh.''

He said he hasn't heard from the NFL yet about whether or not he'll be disciplined for his Oct. 12th roadway incident with his girlfriend, Colleen Crowley, but doesn't think he will be. Manziel met with NFL investigator Lisa Friel at the Browns facility two weeks ago and the matter is still under review. The NFL is investigating whether or not Manziel committed domestic violence or otherwise violated its personal conduct policy.

"It's just kind of out of my control at this point,'' he said. "So it's not anything that I expect. But like I said, I haven't heard anything on that front.''

Manziel, who might get his third start of the season Sunday against the 5-4 Steelers, admitted it will be hard to take a seat again if he has to. Coach Mike Pettine has said McCown will start if he's healthy, but the veteran didn't sound overly optimistic Wednesday after practice.

"I think it's tough,'' said Manziel. "I was telling Flip (offensive coordinator John DeFilippo) and everybody, as the game went on, I felt things starting to slow down more and more and seeing guys here and there. Not every game is going to be perfect in that aspect. Like I said, I've only played four starts. At the same time, I feel like I'm getting more comfortable, so it's going to be hard knowing that I feel like I'm getting better and learning a lot being out there and then having to go back. We don't know if that's been decided yet, or what the case may be, so we'll cross that bridge when we get there."

Manziel acknowledged that it's tough for him to see from the pocket because of his height. In Cincinnati, the Bengals hemmed him in in the second half, and he struggled against the taller ends.

"Well, Michael Johnson's 6-7 and Carlos Dunlap's 6-8, so I'm like 5-11 ½, I guess,'' he said. "(But) I have a lot of confidence in my ability. I'm continuing to gain confidence playing in this system and playing in this offense. It takes a lot of time getting used to seeing these coverages, knowing where people are going to be and exploiting that. I'm not going to be able to sit there like some of these taller quarterbacks in the league and just be able to see everything happen as it plays on.

"There's going to be times where I'm not going to be able to see something and I'm going to have to make a faith throw, knowing that, hey, it's Cover-3 and this guy's here and this guy went there with where this person is. So as I continue to watch film, continue to play in these games, there's going to be times where I'm going to not be able to see everything like everyone else and it's clear as day. I think I'm getting better at it, but I'm nowhere near perfect, that's for sure.''

Manziel, who was criticized by Pettine at halftime for throwing on the run too much, defended his ability to throw from the pocket.

"Not every play was made outside the pocket,'' he said. "There's a time and a place for me to get out. I don't think that is a bad thing, me getting out of the pocket and running around. I don't think anybody wants to take that away from me, but there are times where I could definitely stay in there a little longer and that's just a fact of the way I play and the way I have to continue to try and adapt."

He admitted that he reverts back to scrambling when the going gets tough.

"That's the way I've played a lot of my life, so I'm sure that when things do tend to break down, that's what I kind of fall back on to,'' he said. "At the same time, you can take that with the check-downs and continue to move the ball and take a little bit here and give a little bit there. I think that's the name of the game and what I'm searching for and what I'm trying to do."

If McCown's ribs don't heal in a hurry, he'll have another crack at it Sunday in Pittsburgh.

Johnny's new prototype "pocket" cleats.

This article has a bit of a negative or a bit of "how can I say this to make it more of a story than it is" slant.

I'll only quote one thing from it.


He said he hasn't heard from the NFL yet about whether or not he'll be disciplined for his Oct. 12th roadway incident with his girlfriend, Colleen Crowley, but doesn't think he will be.


So, he said he doesn't think he will be??

Then she quotes what he actually said when he was asked if he heard anything about being disciplined and if he thinks he will be disciplined:

"It's just kind of out of my control at this point,'' he said. "So it's not anything that I expect. But like I said, I haven't heard anything on that front.

When he said "So it's not anything that I expect" he was embellishing on the sentence he said immediately before, "It's just kind of out of my control at this point"

If you watch the presser and watch him say it he's saying 'It's not about what I expect', 'It's out of my control'.


So where does she get the following..

"He said he hasn't heard from the NFL yet about whether or not he'll be disciplined... but doesn't think he will be.'

Within her own writing she proved he never said anything of the sort. Even, in the sub title of the article she says he "doesn't expect NFL discipline". So she said it twice even though he never said it at all.

The whole article is written with that slant.


Watch the presser. I don't think anyone can take anything negative or questionable from it. I remember him doing pressers last year. Go back and watch one. There's two different people.d