DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Alec Scheiner, gaining power and influence over football operations..

I said the Browns would not win more then 4 games and you said I was NUTS of course and allowed we would win at least 8 as I recall.

I admit I thought McCown would be the source of our losing but he has been pretty solid overall, although he has a knack for coughing up the ball at the worst time.

But the bet had nothing to do with Hoyer -vs- McCown it had to do with the record and I hate to say this but I pray we continue to lose, not because I enjoy watching us lose but in the long haul its what's best for the team.

Of course we MUST fire Text he couldn't draft a top prospect if he was the only GM in the draft IMO.

I realize that Text has his hands full with Haslam, but still 4 1st round picks in 2 seasons and he hasn't provided the kind of talent he should have.

I still wonder what the thought process was in drafting Shelton we didn't get gashed up the gut last season we got gashed on the edges, oddly enough that's still true. In other words how could they be so wrong.

I said it a few weeks back I think the D will improve before the season is out our biggest enemy if you will is that we keep making wholesale changes when we need tweaks, and better drafting. Long story short the longer this D is together the better they will be. Health has its roll as well.

Hoyer -vs- McCown I haven't looked to compare but I did read or hear that Hoyer has had at least 2 TD passes in his last 4 games I would have to look to compare but I would bet they have similar stat's with Hoyer having more wins.... Which of course is the bottom line in the NFL.

Hoyer - 13TDS against 3INTS for a 97.1 rating and 7.4 yards per completion

McCown -11TDS against 4 INTS for a 95.2 rating 7.5 per completion

Hoyer 3 fumbles 1 lost

McCown 9 Fumbles 6 lost

Hoyer sacked 13 times

McCown sacked 22 times

Some would say that Houston has a better O Line but we both know that isn't remotely true.

well... ok lmao. pfft.

I would remind you that we are 2-7 and we have lost 4 straight.

Because you are an agenda poster. It is clear as day. Simply saying you are not doesn't fool anyone here.

And saying you have someone one ignore, doesn't fool anyone either.

I don't know about all those teams, but I think you are wrong on the Ravens. Ozzie picks the talent on that team.

You are right on the Cowboys and I'd believe Washington and it's absolutely true with the Bengals. Until this year with the bengals, it hasn't been all that successful and certainly you can't point to the Redskins and Cowboys and tell me they are successful.

It may be that way now with the Chargers but it wasn't always like that at all.

The 49ers were pretty good until the Brass decided to take control., Ran off a winning HC and the players left right after that.

I don't have a clue about the Bears

Sashi Brown.

I wondered about this too but figured it must have been because our NT was Taylor who hadn't been able to pile up reps. Rube was the other option but with him playing injured all season, and not being his usual self and they being uncertain if he ever would, they probably figured they needed a replacement at NT.

The second half of my thinking was, why did they think that NT had to be picked in the 1st round. Maybe they didn't see any potential stud NTs in a later round but then, there's a lot they don't see.

I just thought NT in the 1st was maybe a mistake. But if he comes around becoming a stud for years to come then it was not a wasted pick.

I think he has Ngata-like numbers compared to Ngata's rookie season. Ngata busted out his second year becoming the stud. I'm willing to see if Shelton can do that as well.

Ozzie picks the talent, but nothing happens without Dick Cass' approval.

Dick Cass:



http://www.baltimoreravens.com/team/staff/Richard-Cass/7c84e3c2-4363-458f-830f-47400cbc735b

I think it is pretty common that a person with a business background holds the position of team president.

This idea that a football guy being over the GM is a myth. It just isn't fact. The facts are we have had football guys selecting the players most of the time since we have returned. It just does't fit some arguements since the football guys have pretty much sucked at selecting players, thus the thinking is we need football guys, over football guys, over football guys.

I believe the main theme is that you need a football guy to have the final say and work to make sure that there is a strong working relationship between the GM and HC.

Vice president of football operations. Sort of a coordinator between the HC and GM. As of now, it seems the GM is drafting players that the HC simply isn't playing. It looks like some sort of disconnect.

Someone to oversee that everyone is on the same page seems like a very good idea to me.

What is a "football guy?"

A guy with significant experience in and around the league who has been in a position to judge talent both on the field and for coaches... maybe former player, former coach, risen through the scouting side... could be different things. But not somebody who has been a businessman all his life and now works in the business of football.

Even though business people run many NFL franchises successfully?

Sure does. it seems there are competing visions for what this team is supposed to look like and that's not going to turn out well.

In the end, it may come down to who Haslem trusts the most, Pettine, Farmer, or Scheiner.. and that's a scary proposition.

I posted the following in the "Hire Rob Ryan" thread...

Saints executive vice president and general manager Mickey Loomis...

Mickey Loomis is the executive vice president and General Manager of the NFL's New Orleans Saints. He was named NFL executive of the year for 2006. Since June 2012, he is also head of basketball operations for the New Orleans Pelicans of the National Basketball Association.

Loomis grew up in Eugene, Oregon... He earned his degree in accounting from the University of Oregon and a masters degree in sports administration from Wichita State University. Before coming to the Saints, Loomis spent 15 years in the Seattle Seahawks organization.

Loomis joined the Saints in 2000 and became general manager in 2002. He was with the Saints when they were forced to relocate to San Antonio in the wake of Hurricane Katrina, and helped rebuild the team afterward, culminating in its victory in Super Bowl XLIV. Wiki

I added the Micky Loomis info as an example of one of the NFL team's executives in charge of football, and their GM, and the kind of education and experience that qualifies him for that position.



On the other hand, here's our guy...


Alec Scheiner (born 1973 in Lower Merion, PA) is the current president of the Cleveland Browns of the National Football League (NFL).

Scheiner was born and grew up in Lower Merion, Pennsylvania. After graduating high school, he attended Georgetown University, graduating with degrees in economics and Latin American studies in 1992. He then attended the Georgetown University Law Center, where he graduated with a law degree in 1997.

After college, Scheiner became a lawyer, working at the law firm of Wilmer, Cutler, and Pickering (now WilmerHale), where he practiced from 1997 to 2004.

In 2004, Scheiner was hired by the NFL's Dallas Cowboys to be their general counsel. Four years later, he was promoted to vice president, where he was a key player in the day-to-day business operations of the team, as well as a point man for the building of the new Cowboys Stadium (now AT&T Stadium). In 2010, Scheiner was named to Sports Business Journal's "40 Under 40" list of top young sports executives.

On December 18, 2012, Scheiner left the Cowboys to become president of the Cleveland Browns, where he is in charge of all business operations for the team.

And if he really is nosing into football operations then he needs to quit because he has no qualifications for it.

I don't want Scheiner picking players, he is not qualified for that. I don't care if he is in charge of everyone.

I don't even want him in charge of Farmer and Pettine or working as the moderator/mediator between them.

I really don't like that scenario. I still get shivers thinking of how Holmgren was in that role.

Too many spoons in the stew ruins the brew.

I prefer what New England does. BB tells his GM and scouting staff what he is looking for and those guys go out and get those types of players.

Like Ray Farmer, Mike Holmgren, Phil Savage, Butch Davis, Dwight Clark?


Face it, we have had "football guys" making the calls for a long time.

I am not saying I don't want a football guy, but this idea that they are the only answer is pretty much disproven here in Cleveland.

You need a competent person to make decisions, and that doesn't have to be a football guy.

I think Cleveland proved, after numerous attempts with varying amounts of styles, no one can fix a complete franchise in two years. It is also proven making umpteen attempts have pretty much told people of talent stay away.

When I read his bio after the hire, it was obvious to me what his role was supposed to be. Not coincidentally, it was around that time when we started to hear phrases like: "improved fan gameday experience" and the like.

I had no problems with that at all. He sounded like a GREAT choice. It was the perfect gig for him: Execute the business side of things , oversee general ops, make Mr. Flying J money. Lots and lots of money. A great full-time job. If I was qualified to do it, I'd DIVE head-first at it. BUT...

If these rumors are true, then some serious "lane alignment" is in order. Because Schiener having influence on football matters makes about as much sense as Mike Pettine setting ticket prices and luxury box rates.

___________________

The thing that bugs me most about this half-story/rumor is how often it seems to come back around in the cycle of Browns subplots. Seems like almost every regime we've had has been touched by stories just like this. Way too often, the rumors heard during the season become confirmed at season's end... when folks get fired and tongues start wagging.

Change the names, change the dates.... we just can't seem to get it out of 76 Groza no matter what we try or who we hire. It really is an awful, awful recurring nightmare. It's like the damn place is cursed.

"Ya, mon.... Ah fill da bad JuJu in dis plece. Baaaaaad JuJu. [shakes head] Bruda be fightin' Bruda. Ja bess be callin' Madame Mazuli come up fum Haiti for ta cleanse dis plece. You'll not shek dis vibe on ya own-"

Know you role.
Play your role.
Stay in your own fin lane.


This 'Groundhog Day' stuff has ground out all my enthusiasm for this... whatever it is.
'Team,' I guess.

...and Kraft and His Army of Suits stay the hell outta the way when BB and DPP* Nick Caserio do that football stuff they do.


'Lane integrity'.... it's a wonderful thing.


*Director of Player Personnel. BB IS the Patriot's GM

This trumps all. Right here.


Our present situation (rookies and 2nd year men in ALL top positions) is a direct result of our history since rejoining the league. That history: "The Browns never stick with anything long enough to make it work."

I find it very interesting that in the entirety of Browns history, the only times we had winning seasons and playoff appearances was during tenures that lasted 4 years or more. Consistently. Unerringly. Since The Dawn of The Browns. Look it up, folks. That's one helluva telling stat, if you ask me.

I'm beginning to think that it's time for someone to hide Berea's reset button for about 5-7 years, just to see what might happen... because hitting the reset button every 2 year has ensured one thing, and one thing only:

Rookies and 2nd year men in ALL top positions.
Again.
Forever.

________________


Marvin Lewis has been the head coach of the same NFL team for 13 years.
Mike Tomlin has been HC of the same NFL team for 8 years.
John Harbaugh has been HC of the same NFL team for 7 years. His GM has served at the same post for 13 years.
These are the guys our rookies and 2nd year men are going up against. Let me repeat that for emphasis:



These are the guys our rookies and 2nd year men are going up against.



We fans talk about 'player development' all the time. Maybe it's time to embrace the concept of 'coach/admin development' first. Because you can't 'develop' your players/team if half of them have been here longer than the coaches. It's bass-ackwards. And it's high time it stopped. Enough of the insanity.

'Groundhog Day' is the only Browns culture our Modern-day ownership and fan base knows. It's sooo different than it used to be. And trust me-

...it was a lot more satisfying back then.

Then you should be happy with our setup. This is what Farmer has been doing. Getting Pettine the guys he wants.

But 'Peen, out of all those you keep listing, only Holmgren was in the position I have been talking about. Two unfortunate things happened with that. First, Holmgren used his Browns job as his own retirement hobby making him part of the problem and secondly, the team got sold out from under him.

We need a football guy in that same position. Maybe not as team President like Holmgren was, but at least a VP of Football Operations.

The other guys were merely GMs in charge of themselves and those under them but had no boss other than a non-football person.

Pettine told Farmer that he wanted guys that sucked?

Yes, I believe he was very specific about that.

I've read many times that Farmer drafted Justin Gilbert at Pettine's request, but I wonder if Pettine specifically asked for Gilbert or if he said "get me a CB". Because some 1st round CB's from that draft are starting for their teams (Fuller, Verrett) and others are at least contributing (Dennard, Roby). We somehow managed to pick the highest ranked, least motivated CB.

I heard an anecdote about Gilbert on the RBS with Tony Rizzo; Rizzo said that a scout told him that Gilbert refused to field punts or kickoffs for the scout at his workout day, telling the scout that he should instead "check out his highlight film" for that. The scout left the workout. If the Browns were at that same workout and observed that, it should have been a huge red flag.

To add to that, and I could be wrong, I think there is even a press conference where Pettine said it was someone he targeted. But to be fair, anything said in a press conference should be taken with a grain of salt.

Still, several stories along these lines have come up since the day he was drafted. Just like Manziel was picked by Haslem. Are they one story/source being recirculated over and over again? I don't know.

There is also another player (early pick) reportedly linked directly to Pettine's wants as well.

We have proven one of several things.. either we've had the wrong football guy, the wrong combination of football guys, or we haven't given our football guys enough time. In order to prove you don't need a football guy in charge, you would have to show me examples of teams that have sustained success without a football guy in charge. There may be some, I don't know...

I'm kinda just hoping at this point that we've been intentionally sucking - pulling an Indianapolis.

Intentionally dump "expendable" talent so that our roster looks bad (and get us some compensatory picks) enough that us tanking won't look COMPLETELY obvious, then we get the #1 pick and "magically" get better next year.


It's all I've got any more, every other option/choice/view is pathetically depressing.

#pipedream #tanking

It would be very Browns-like to do that in a year where there is no clear #1 QB in the draft.

So, you're saying that there's a chance....?

Good Gosh, the title doesn't matter. You make it sound like the owner should be a football guy.

We have had football guys making the decisions for the bulk of the time, and it hasn't worked is my point. How many over seers do you need, because in the end, the top guy makes the call unless the owner butts in.... Scouts are football guys.


All you need is one football guy making the calls. You don't need 2-3 levels. Our problem is ours seem to be not all that good at making football decisions.

Because that always works. . .

I don't think we go into it with the plan of hiring a guy for HC and GM. We can leave the door open if the right guy comes along. But, how often has this worked out? We tried this with Mangini and I think Davis and it didn't work out so well. Off the top of my head the one place it seems to work well is New England. I just don't know who that guy would be.

Butch?