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~Lyuokdea
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Are people on here truly afraid to be a victim of Islamic violence? Me personally? No. the odds are extremely small. However I do not want to see my fellow Americans in any other city blown up either. I also don't want to see another successful terror attack as it will only embolden the government to infringe even further into my rights as an American. Great response.
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Are people on here truly afraid to be a victim of Islamic violence? I'm afraid of being a victim of any kind of violence. Well maybe not actually afraid, but concerned. Can't argue with that.
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Operation Paperclip
Operation Paperclip (originally Operation Overcast) (1949–1990) was the Office of Strategic Services (OSS) program in which over 1,500 German scientists, engineers, and technicians from Nazi Germany and other foreign countries were brought to the United States for employment in the aftermath of World War II.[1] It was conducted by the Joint Intelligence Objectives Agency(JIOA), and in the context of the burgeoning Cold War. One purpose of Operation Paperclip was to deny German scientific expertise and knowledge to the Soviet Union[1] and the United Kingdom,[2] as well as inhibiting post-war Germany from redeveloping its military research capabilities. The Soviet Union had competing extraction programs known as "trophy brigades" and Operation Osoaviakhim.[3]
Although the JIOA's ("Joint Intelligence Objectives Agency" est. 1945; Joint Intelligence Committee; Joint Chiefs of Staff; US DoD) recruitment of German scientists began after the Allied victory in Europe on May 8, 1945, U.S. President Harry Trumandid not formally order the execution of Operation Paperclip until August 1945. Truman's order expressly excluded anyone found "to have been a member of the Nazi Party, and more than a nominal participant in its activities, or an active supporter of Nazi militarism." However, those restrictions would have rendered ineligible most of the leading scientists the JIOA had identified for recruitment, among them rocket scientists Wernher von Braun, Kurt H. Debus and Arthur Rudolph, and the physician Hubertus Strughold, each earlier classified as a "menace to the security of the Allied Forces."[4]
To circumvent President Truman's anti-Nazi order and the Allied Potsdam and Yalta agreements, the JIOA worked independently to create false employment and political biographies for the scientists. The JIOA also expunged the scientists' Nazi Party memberships and regime affiliations from the public record. Once "bleached" of their Nazism, the scientists were granted security clearances by the U.S. government to work in the United States. Paperclip, the project's operational name, derived from the paperclips used to attach the scientists' new political personae to their "US Government Scientist" JIOA personnel.
Knowing that these scientists were part of a group that orchestrated the deaths of millions, do you think it was a great idea to bring them to the US and give them jobs working for the government? Even going as far to circumvent President Truman's own order? Why or why not?
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Legend
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well, our space program would never have gotten off the ground without them.
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I'm willing to put Americans at minuscule personal risk to save 100K people.
History always judges that to be the right choice.
~Tim Well as long as it is your family that pays the price if you are wrong, I would not have a problem with it.
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I'm willing to put Americans at minuscule personal risk to save 100K people.
History always judges that to be the right choice.
~Tim Well as long as it is your family that pays the price if you are wrong, I would not have a problem with it. Cute
~Lyuokdea
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j/c I could have written another of my 50K-word eye-bleeders, and still not have been able to express my POV as well as this. It really is the philosophy behind why I've posted as I have. It's never been a bout a liberal or conservative political solution, just a simple understanding of human nature. I will not allow some idiots in an extreme death cult change the way I look at my Muslim friends and neighbors. They can't make me lose my respect for the surgeon whose son I privately taught for 5 years. He's only been saving the lives of his fellow Americans for 30 years. They can't make me fear the violinist who subs in our group 6-8 times per year. We met on the freelance circuit 20+ years ago, and have been friends ever since. All he wants to do is make the world a prettier place- one Classical piece at a time. Like me. Their kids are x-box junkies and listen to hip hop when their parents' backs are turned. In my town, we all sit together at Mud Hens games, and attend each others' ethnic fests. I refuse to deprive myself of these enjoyments, and allow fear and mistrust to assume that vacuum. 20 years of positive experiences are too valuable to throw away for something (or someone) this worthless. I will not become the ugliness they goad me to become. That's what runs their lives- not mine. My Parents raised me to be stronger than that. ___________________________________ “The fundamentalist seeks to bring down a great deal more than buildings. Such people are against, to offer just a brief list, freedom of speech, a multi-party political system, universal adult suffrage, accountable government, Jews, homosexuals, women's rights, pluralism, secularism, short skits, dancing, beardlessness, evolution theory, sex. They are tyrants, not Muslims. United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan has said that we should now define ourselves not only by what we are for but by what we are against. I would reverse that proposition, because in the present instance what we are against is a no brainer. Suicidist assassins ram wide-bodied aircraft into the World Trade Center and Pentagon and kill thousands of people: um, I'm against that. But what are we for? What will we risk our lives to defend? Can we unanimously concur that all the items in the preceding list -- yes, even the short skirts and the dancing -- are worth dying for? The fundamentalist believes that we believe in nothing. In his world-view, he has his absolute certainties, while we are sunk in sybaritic indulgences. To prove him wrong, we must first know that he is wrong. We must agree on what matters: kissing in public places, bacon sandwiches, disagreement, cutting-edge fashion, literature, generosity, water, a more equitable distribution of the world's resources, movies, music, freedom of thought, beauty, love. These will be our weapons. Not by making war but by the unafraid way we choose to live shall we defeat them. How to defeat terrorism? Don't be terrorized. Don't let fear rule your life. Even if you are scared.” ― Salman Rushdie, Step Across This Line: Collected Nonfiction 1992-2002 source
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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well, our space program would never have gotten off the ground without them. Is that worth the lives of millions of people?
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Are people on here truly afraid to be a victim of Islamic violence? My wife and daughters shop at a mall around here that was the object of a thwarted bomb plot sometime shortly after 9/11. It worries me enough.
WE DON'T NEED A QB BEFORE WE GET A LINE THAT CAN PROTECT HIM
my two cents...
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well, our space program would never have gotten off the ground without them. Is that worth the lives of millions of people? We pressed these people into service for our country at the end of the war. Our goal then was taking over the scientists that had created spectacular weapons and keep that knowledge in our hands instead of the soviets. It's a completely different situation, as these people had valuable knowledge. What will the Syrians bring other than demands for entitlements and possible jihad? Unless you really believe Arnim Zola came here to reinstitute Hydra.
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well, our space program would never have gotten off the ground without them. Is that worth the lives of millions of people? What are you saying? Once they came to the US they killed no one. They actually made America stronger which probably ended up saving millions of lives worldwide.
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Did we write this number into granite tablets? Are we not allowed to update it based on new information? Maybe we should direct our military to protect us against England, wouldn't want to update our strategy based on world events... I'm sure we can, we do it with the debt ceiling all the time. If there is one thing the President and congress have taught us it's that laws and regulations only matter when it suits them. If my other stat was wrong, I will stand corrected. I do remember reading that. Must have either taken it out of context or had a bad source.
yebat' Putin
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I'm sure we can, we do it with the debt ceiling all the time. If there is one thing the President and congress have taught us it's that laws and regulations only matter when it suits them.
Good, let's do that then -- it proposed to cost $500M/year to settle 100,000 refugees per year: http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2015/10/15/Should-US-Spend-1-Billion-Help-Syrian-RefugeesThat's chump change compared to the sorts of stuff we're used to spending government money on. Do you think our war against ISIS is helped more by resettling 200,000 of their victims, or by buying half of a B2 bomber?
~Lyuokdea
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I'm sure we can, we do it with the debt ceiling all the time. If there is one thing the President and congress have taught us it's that laws and regulations only matter when it suits them.
Good, let's do that then -- it proposed to cost $500M/year to settle 100,000 refugees per year: http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2015/10/15/Should-US-Spend-1-Billion-Help-Syrian-RefugeesThat's chump change compared to the sorts of stuff we're used to spending government money on. Do you think our war against ISIS is helped more by resettling 200,000 of their victims, or by buying half of a B2 bomber? Most people cry about us being the Worlds Police and here you are wanting us to be the Worlds Hotel! Even if it risks American lives!
Last edited by 40YEARSWAITING; 11/20/15 11:24 AM.
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Most people cry about us being the Worlds Police and here you are wanting us to be the Worlds Hotel!
Even if it risks American lives!
OTOH you're perfectly willing to risk American lives to depose Saddam, or to kill Taliban members, or kill North Vietnamese? The differences? 1.) It wasn't your life, it was somebody who signed up for the military? 2.) Republicans were in charge? 3.) It made your gas cheap?
~Lyuokdea
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Ah, another confused citizen.
You are willing to risk the lives of American Families by making America into a Hotel for those we are at war with while I am willing to send our well trained Military into situations that can make a difference for us and the world, a job they are trained and equipped to perform.
Big difference.
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N j/c I could have written another of my 50K-word eye-bleeders, and still not have been able to express my POV as well as this. It really is the philosophy behind why I've posted as I have. It's never been a bout a liberal or conservative political solution, just a simple understanding of human nature. I will not allow some idiots in an extreme death cult change the way I look at my Muslim friends and neighbors. They can't make me lose my respect for the surgeon whose son I privately taught for 5 years. He's only been saving the lives of his fellow Americans for 30 years. They can't make me fear the violinist who subs in our group 6-8 times per year. We met on the freelance circuit 20+ years ago, and have been friends ever since. All he wants to do is make the world a prettier place- one Classical piece at a time. Like me. Their kids are x-box junkies and listen to hip hop when their parents' backs are turned. In my town, we all sit together at Mud Hens games, and attend each others' ethnic fests. I refuse to deprive myself of these enjoyments, and allow fear and mistrust to assume that vacuum. 20 years of positive experiences are too valuable to throw away for something (or someone) this worthless. I will not become the ugliness they goad me to become. That's what runs their lives- not mine. My Parents raised me to be stronger than that. ___________________________________ “The fundamentalist seeks to bring down a great deal more than buildings. Such people are against, to offer just a brief list, freedom of speech, a multi-party political system, universal adult suffrage, accountable government, Jews, homosexuals, women's rights, pluralism, secularism, short skits, dancing, beardlessness, evolution theory, sex. They are tyrants, not Muslims. United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan has said that we should now define ourselves not only by what we are for but by what we are against. I would reverse that proposition, because in the present instance what we are against is a no brainer. Suicidist assassins ram wide-bodied aircraft into the World Trade Center and Pentagon and kill thousands of people: um, I'm against that. But what are we for? What will we risk our lives to defend? Can we unanimously concur that all the items in the preceding list -- yes, even the short skirts and the dancing -- are worth dying for? The fundamentalist believes that we believe in nothing. In his world-view, he has his absolute certainties, while we are sunk in sybaritic indulgences. To prove him wrong, we must first know that he is wrong. We must agree on what matters: kissing in public places, bacon sandwiches, disagreement, cutting-edge fashion, literature, generosity, water, a more equitable distribution of the world's resources, movies, music, freedom of thought, beauty, love. These will be our weapons. Not by making war but by the unafraid way we choose to live shall we defeat them. How to defeat terrorism? Don't be terrorized. Don't let fear rule your life. Even if you are scared.” ― Salman Rushdie, Step Across This Line: Collected Nonfiction 1992-2002 source But Clem there is a huge difference between lettting fear rule one's life and behaving prudently in this time of world turmoil. Opening our borders, letting refugees from all countries in without proper vetting is not prudent. Currently, without the possibility of proper vetting and lack of documentation, it IS prudent to pause, regroup, assess and move forward with proper information. Fear...no...prudent assessment and behavior....absolutely. We recently had dialogue,with our 14 year old son regarding this issue. That IS prudent behavior without fear mongering. We will continue to do so. This will enable him to be properly informed, not fearful. I see this as having little or nothing to do with folks already living in our country, lives and hearts.
#gmstrong
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Legend
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No problem. Tell me which program you would like to cut that $500M/year from. Now the typical democratic response to that would be... if we make the cuts we'll lose teachers, firemen, and children's programs.. because cuts almost always are only allowed to affect those things.. If you are a conservative it would be... if we make the cuts it will weaken our national defense and make us vulnerable to an attack... So in the end, cuts never happen.... Either way, $500M/year is not chump change, it's a lot of money.. especially when you add it to all of the other stuff that wasn't that much so we can afford it... those things add up. And, for the record, I'm wondering exactly how extensive our vetting process is if it only costs $5,000 to resettle a refugee to the United States. I couldn't move from North Carolina to South Carolina for $5,000... and they can resettle a refugee here from half way around the world for that with all of the vetting and the documentation and everything? That's borderline unbelievable.
yebat' Putin
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My Conservative response would be, "Gee, that amount you mentioned is just about the same as what we spend to keep
Planned Parenthood open and killing. Lets talk."
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But...we're already taking the steps necessary to vet those who come in?
Stop with this xenophobic nonsense. These kind of thoughts are what started the internment camps.
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Rocket, i agree with you.
however, here's my issue with the refugee's. it's not where they come from, btw.
it's that we have tons of homeless vets on the street, as well as kids. and not just talking about teenagers, i mean actual babies and children who should be in elementary school, not dumpster diving trying to survive.
if we have the room for the refugee's, which is fine, then where is the extra space for our own people?
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Legend
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But...we're already taking the steps necessary to vet those who come in?
Stop with this xenophobic nonsense. These kind of thoughts are what started the internment camps. Exactly how do you vet these people? We can't even vet our own citizens. What was the story about the TSA having employees that shouldn't have been allowed to be employees? Yet, in a few weeks time, month or so, we can vet these refugees?
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Nice post, Cj
I'm all for continuing the current policy regarding immigration and refugees, which is already the most stringent on the planet. In terms of a 'hurry-up' for those in dire need, women & children should pose negligible threat. Profile the h out of those who fit the type, and continue a 'go slow' policy where they are concerned.
At this time, I see closing the borders completely to be an abdication of our national policy and mandate. I'm not naive or "pie in the sky," but I also don't want to see this country morph into something less because of this tiny group of asshats.
Rhetorical question for anybody: how much influence does the rest of the world give to these monsters? How much should they be allowed to impact the way we live our lives? I'm all for vigilance and prudence, but this response we've been seeing in the first week following the Paris attacks is overreaction, imho. I suppose it will level out over time, but I HATE seeing how crazy it's making some of my fellow Americans.
.02
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Legend
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Nice post, Cj
I'm all for continuing the current policy regarding immigration and refugees, which is already the most stringent on the planet. In terms of a 'hurry-up' for those in dire need, women & children should pose negligible threat. Profile the h out of those who fit the type, and continue a 'go slow' policy where they are concerned.
At this time, I see closing the borders completely to be an abdication of our national policy and mandate. I'm not naive or "pie in the sky," but I also don't want to see this country morph into something less because of this tiny group of asshats.
Rhetorical question for anybody: how much influence does the rest of the world give to these monsters? How much should they be allowed to impact the way we live our lives? I'm all for vigilance and prudence, but this response we've been seeing in the first week following the Paris attacks is overreaction, imho. I suppose it will level out over time, but I HATE seeing how crazy it's making some of my fellow Americans.
.02 And then BAM! They hit DC followed by BAM! Philly. Be calm my friend, it will level out over time.
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Be calm my friend, it will level out over time.
Meanwhile another 300,000 Syrians will die, but sure...
~Lyuokdea
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Legend
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"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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 Classic!
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And, for the record, I'm wondering exactly how extensive our vetting process is if it only costs $5,000 to resettle a refugee to the United States. I couldn't move from North Carolina to South Carolina for $5,000... and they can resettle a refugee here from half way around the world for that with all of the vetting and the documentation and everything? That's borderline unbelievable. I think a bigger question is where and how reliable is the information we are gathering in the vetting process? Are we willing to actually trust and believe in the data base that Syria has to offer? How well do they know the backgrounds and activity of their people? I would need to know a LOT more abut where they gather this information from and just how reputable these sources are before considering this enough to base anything substantial on.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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And, for the record, I'm wondering exactly how extensive our vetting process is if it only costs $5,000 to resettle a refugee to the United States. I couldn't move from North Carolina to South Carolina for $5,000... and they can resettle a refugee here from half way around the world for that with all of the vetting and the documentation and everything? That's borderline unbelievable. I think a bigger question is where and how reliable is the information we are gathering in the vetting process? Are we willing to actually trust and believe in the data base that Syria has to offer? How well do they know the backgrounds and activity of their people? I would need to know a LOT more abut where they gather this information from and just how reputable these sources are before considering this enough to base anything substantial on. Agreed. The problem is how do you vet someone when you have little to no information on them? You can't. Not in a few weeks time anyway.
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And, for the record, I'm wondering exactly how extensive our vetting process is if it only costs $5,000 to resettle a refugee to the United States. I couldn't move from North Carolina to South Carolina for $5,000... and they can resettle a refugee here from half way around the world for that with all of the vetting and the documentation and everything? That's borderline unbelievable. You have never moved without any stuff....
I think a bigger question is where and how reliable is the information we are gathering in the vetting process? Are we willing to actually trust and believe in the data base that Syria has to offer? How well do they know the backgrounds and activity of their people?
I would need to know a LOT more abut where they gather this information from and just how reputable these sources are before considering this enough to base anything substantial on.
We somehow decided that a 24 hour background check is ok (or too much) to sell somebody an assault rifle...
~Lyuokdea
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Oh noes that scary assault rifle..
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We somehow decided that a 24 hour background check is ok (or too much) to sell somebody an assault rifle... You mean those assault rifles that are a regular hunting rifle with some dangerous looking plastic on it? Semi auto is semi auto, even if it comes without the scary look.
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And, for the record, I'm wondering exactly how extensive our vetting process is if it only costs $5,000 to resettle a refugee to the United States. I couldn't move from North Carolina to South Carolina for $5,000... and they can resettle a refugee here from half way around the world for that with all of the vetting and the documentation and everything? That's borderline unbelievable. You have never moved without any stuff....
I think a bigger question is where and how reliable is the information we are gathering in the vetting process? Are we willing to actually trust and believe in the data base that Syria has to offer? How well do they know the backgrounds and activity of their people?
I would need to know a LOT more abut where they gather this information from and just how reputable these sources are before considering this enough to base anything substantial on.
We somehow decided that a 24 hour background check is ok (or too much) to sell somebody an assault rifle... Quit being obtuse. First of all, what's an "assault" rifle to you? Secondly, to go to a gun store and buy one, you need to: -be a u.s. citizen -have an i.d. proving that -have a background check on your criminal status -pay for it These refugees aren't all women and children. (hey, don't the women wear suicide vests over there?) There are many, many able bodied, strong young males coming. We can't check a ss number. We can't check an i.d. How are we "vetting" these people? Asking a question, or questions? "Have you ever joined isis or helped isis? No? Okay, here's your place to live, thanks for coming."
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Oh noes that scary assault rifle.. Oh noes that scary 5 year old orphan....
~Lyuokdea
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i don't get that line of thinking.
My wife is from another country. no criminal records.
who's to say she isn't a spy? my wife also speaks other languages other than german and english. who's to say she doesn't join some terrorist group after getting here?
you don't know until you do. you go through the process, and then just hope for the best. and that applies to ANY person from ANY country.
is the chances slighter higher if they come from troubled areas, that they may be part of something sinister? sure. but this idea that somehow too little information is a red flag....well that applies to literally almost anybody who has ever gone through the immigration process to live here.
if somebody doesn't have a criminal record, then what are you suppose to do? be like "well, there's a chance you might do something, so bye". is that the answer?
because if thats the case, then this country should have a LOT less than 300 million people currently living here.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 2,378
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 2,378 |
yeah but but those scary assault rifles..
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,480 Likes: 73
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,480 Likes: 73 |
Secondly, to go to a gun store and buy one, you need to:
-be a u.s. citizen
-have an i.d. proving that
That's the scariest part -- U.S. citizens are the #1 killers of US citizens... :-)
~Lyuokdea
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,825 Likes: 516
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,825 Likes: 516 |
Oh noes that scary assault rifle.. Oh noes that scary 5 year old orphan.... They aren't all 5 year old orphans!!! Look at some pictures of them! They aren't all women, they aren't all old men.
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 25,823 Likes: 116
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 25,823 Likes: 116 |
First you want to risk American lives by making us a Hotel for our enemies and now you are gonna cry about our being able to defend ourselves. 
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Paris Terror Attacks
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