DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Syrian Refugee Info

I wasn't sure where to place this in our ongoing threads, so I decided to create a new conversation line. Refs: if there is a better place to drop this, please feel free to 'do that thing you do.' I'll totally understand.

Here is some deeper info regarding the current US policy regarding the intake of refugees. It comes from someone in the business, so he may actually know a bit more than we who only have part of the story, and an abundance of opinion. I thought it might set a framework for a deeper line of discussion.

It's a bit long... but the subject matter is complex, and worthy of the level of detail necessary to have informed conversation.

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Scott Hicks

November 19 at 9:54am · Edited ·

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Most of my friends know I practice Immigration law. As such, I have worked with the refugee community for over two decades. This post is long, but if you want actual information about the process, keep reading.

I can not tell you how frustrating it is to see the misinformation and outright lies that are being perpetuated about the refugee process and the Syrian refugees. So, here is a bit of information from the real world of someone who actually works and deals with this issue.

The refugee screening process is multi-layered and is very difficult to get through. Most people languish in temporary camps for months to years while their story is evaluated and checked.

First, you do not get to choose what country you might be resettled into. If you already have family (legal) in a country, that makes it more likely that you will go there to be with family, but other than that it is random. So, you can not simply walk into a refugee camp, show a document, and say, I want to go to America. Instead, the UNHCR (United Nations High Commissioner on Refugees) works with the local authorities to try to take care of basic needs. Once the person/family is registered to receive basic necessities, they can be processed for resettlement. Many people are not interested in resettlement as they hope to return to their country and are hoping that the turmoil they fled will be resolved soon. In fact, most refugees in refugee events never resettle to a third country. Those that do want to resettle have to go through an extensive process.

Resettlement in the U.S. is a long process and takes many steps. The Refugee Admissions Program is jointly administered by the Bureau of Population, Refugees, and Migration (PRM) in the Department of State, the Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR) in the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), and offices within the Department of Homeland Security (DHS). U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) within DHS conducts refugee interviews and determines individual eligibility for refugee status in the United States.

We evaluate refugees on a tiered system with three levels of priority.

First Priority are people who have suffered compelling persecution or for whom no other durable solution exists. These individuals are referred to the United States by UNHCR, or they are identified by the U.S. embassy or a non-governmental organization (NGO).

Second priority are groups of “special concern” to the United States. The Department of State determines these groups, with input from USCIS, UNHCR, and designated NGOs. At present, we prioritize certain persons from the former Soviet Union, Cuba, Democratic Republic of Congo, Iraq, Iran, Burma, and Bhutan.

Third priority are relatives of refugees (parents, spouses, and unmarried children under 21) who are already settled in the United States may be admitted as refugees. The U.S.-based relative must file an Affidavit of Relationship (AOR) and must be processed by DHS.

Before being allowed to come to the United States, each refugee must undergo an extensive interviewing, screening, and security clearance process conducted by Regional Refugee Coordinators and overseas Resettlement Support Centers (RSCs). Individuals generally must not already be firmly resettled (a legal term of art that would be a separate article). Just because one falls into the three priorities above does not guarantee admission to the United States.

The Immigration laws require that the individuals prove that they have a “well-founded fear,” (another legal term which would be a book.) This fear must be proved regardless of the person’s country, circumstance, or classification in a priority category. There are multiple interviews and people are challenged on discrepancies. I had a client who was not telling the truth on her age and the agency challenged her on it. Refugees are not simply admitted because they have a well founded fear. They still must show that they are not subject to exclusion under Section 212(a) of the INA. These grounds include serious health matters, moral or criminal matters, as well as security issues. In addition, they can be excluded for such things as polygamy, misrepresentation of facts on visa applications, smuggling, or previous deportations. Under some circumstances, the person may be eligible to have the ground waived.

At this point, a refugee can be conditionally accepted for resettlement. Then, the RSC sends a request for assurance of placement to the United States, and the Refugee Processing Center (RPC) works with private voluntary agencies (VOLAG) to determine where the refugee will live. If the refugee does have family in the U.S., efforts will be made to resettle close to that family.

Every person accepted as a refugee for planned admission to the United States is conditional upon passing a medical examination and passing all security checks. Frankly, there is more screening of refugees than ever happens to get on an airplane. Of course, yes, no system can be 100% foolproof. But if that is your standard, then you better shut down the entire airline industry, close the borders, and stop all international commerce and shipping. Every one of those has been the source of entry of people and are much easier ways to gain access to the U.S. Only upon passing all of these checks (which involve basically every agency of the government involved in terrorist identification) can the person actually be approved to travel.

Before departing, refugees sign a promissory note to repay the United States for their travel costs. This travel loan is an interest-free loan that refugees begin to pay back six months after arriving in the country.

Once the VOLAG is notified of the travel plans, it must arrange for the reception of refugees at the airport and transportation to their housing at their final destination.
This process from start to finish averages 18 to 24 months, but I have seen it take years.

The reality is that about half of the refugees are children, another quarter are elderly. Almost all of the adults are either moms or couples coming with children. Each year the President, in consultation with Congress, determines the numerical ceiling for refugee admissions. For Fiscal Year (FY) 2016, the proposed ceiling is 85,000. We have been averaging about 70,000 a year for the last number of years. (Source: Refugee Processing Center)

Over one-third of all refugee arrivals (35.1 percent, or 24,579) in FY 2015 came from the Near East/South Asia—a region that includes Iraq, Iran, Bhutan, and Afghanistan.
Another third of all refugee arrivals (32.1 percent, or 22,472) in FY 2015 came from Africa.
Over a quarter of all refugee arrivals (26.4 percent, or 18,469) in FY 2015 came from East Asia — a region that includes China, Vietnam, and Indonesia. (Source: Refugee Processing Center)
Finally, the process in Europe is different. I would be much more concerned that terrorists are infiltrating the European system because they are not nearly so extensive and thorough in their process.


https://www.facebook.com/BryanScottHicks/posts/1187326084630475?fref=nf

How dare you post something that runs counter to the xenophobic hive mind of certain ideologies in our country.

we've allowed terrorism to change who we are as a country.

ISIS already won.

I'm trying to win us back.
Somebody has to do it.

Knowledge is the key. Common sense is a powerful tool.

List of famous refugees

ADVERTISING

Lord Maurice Saatchi and Charles Saatchi – founders of Saatchi and Saatchi advertising agency. Their father was an Iraqi Jewish refugee.

ARCHITECTURE

Richard Rogers – designer of the Centre Pompidou and the Millennium Dome. His mother was a refugee from Trieste

Eva Jircicna – a refugee, she designed the Faith Zone in the Millennium Dome.

Daniel Marot – a refugee. He designed Hampton Court Palace

ART

Anish Kapoor – won the 1991 Turner Prize. His parents were refugees who fled Iraq.

Piet Mondrian – a refugee

Marc Chagall – a Russian-born Jewish refugee

Jacob Epstein – son of Polish-Jewish refugees

Lucien Freud – a well known British painter, he was a German-Jewish refugee

Peter Carl Fabergé – Russian jeweller, fled Russia via Finland, Germany to Switzerland.

Mona Hatoum – a well known British painter, she is a Palestinian-Lebanese refugee

Camille Pissarro – a French-Jewish refugee

Sir John Tenniel – a cartoonist and book illustrator – descended from Huguenot refugees

Alfred Wolmark – painter, a Polish-Jewish refugee

BUSINESS

Michael Marks – one of the founders of Marks and Spencer. He was a Russian refugee.

Sir Montague Burton – A refugee from Lithuania, he founded Burton retail.

Manubhai Madhvani – expelled from Uganda by Idi Amin

Sieng van Trang – founder of the educational website www.iLearn.to. He is a Vietnamese refugee

Sir John Houblon – grandson of refugees. He was the first Governor of the Bank of England

George Weidenfeld, publisher – Jew who fled the Nazis.

FASHION AND DESIGN

Alek Wek – a supermodel, she fled Sudan with her family

Tanya Sarne – fashion designer and creator of the Ghost label. Her father was a Russian refugee.

Lewis de Teissier – founder of Tessier’s jewellers, and the grandson of a refugee Jaqcues de Teissier

Sir Alec Issigonis – designer of the Mini, he was a refugee

MANUFACTURING

Lakshmibhai Pathak – founder of Patak’s. He was a Kenyan refugee

Rashmi Thakrar – a Ugandan refugee and founder of Tilda Rice

MUSIC AND DANCE

Regina Spektor – singer, songwriter and pianist. Originally fled Soviet Russia at the age of nine and now based in New York.

Shingai Shoniwa – lead singer of the Noisettes. British-born daughter of Zimbabwean refugees.

Carlos Acosta – ballet dancer with the Royal Ballet, London and a Cuban refugee

Norbert Brainin – Austrian-Jewish violinist and refugee

Gloria Estefan – her father was a Cuban refugee

Justine Frischmann – lead singer of Elastica. Her father was a Hungarian refugee.

Mika -famous singer who fled from Beirut Lebanon .

Wyclef Jean – Haitian refugee. Named group Fugees (short for refugee).

M.I.A. – English-born singer. Part of a Tamil Sri Lankan refugee family

Bob Marley – Fled Jamaica to Miami after being shot during political violence.

Fritzi Massary – Austrian-Jewish operetta singer and refugee.

Olivia Newton-John – singer and actress – granddaughter of refugee Max Born.

Arnold Schoenberg – composer

Claude-Michel Schonberg – composer whose works include Les Misérables and Miss Saigon. He is the son of refugees.

Gene Simmons – Member of Kiss. His mother was a Holocaust survivor.

Sir Georg Solti – conductor and refugee

Oscar Straus – Austrian-Jewish composer and refugee

Robert Stolz – Austrian composer/conductor and refugee

Richard Tauber – Austrian-Jewish singer, composer and refugee

Georg Ritter von Trapp – father of the Trapp family, whose story inspired The Sound of Music after fleeing Nazi occupied Austria

Maria von Trapp – autobiography, The Story of the Trapp Family Singers, inspired The Sound of Music

K’Naan – Somali “The Dusty Foot Philosopher” Hip Hop Artist now living in Toronto, Canada

POLITICS

David Miliband – British MP and son of a Belgian Jewish refugee

Ed Miliband – Leader of the Labour Party. Son of a Belgian Jewish refugee

Madeleine Albright – former U. S. Secretary of State

Ayaan Hirsi Ali – Dutch politician, who fled from Somalia

Lord Alf Dubs – politician and a refugee from Prague

Sir Clement Freud – British MP and TV personality and Austrian-Jewish refugee

Margaret Hodge – Former British MP and Minister for Children. Her parents were refugees from Germany

Michaëlle Jean – Haitian- The current Governor-General of Canada

Henry Kissinger – U. S. State secretary, fled from Germany to USA in 1938

Vladimir Lenin – Soviet leader and a refugee who fled to Switzerland

Friedrick Lessner – founder member of the Independent Labour Party.

Karl Marx – political theorist and German refugee

Sitting Bull – Sioux chief. He left America for Canada

Leon Trotsky – Marxist theorist, and former member of the Soviet Politburo

PSYCHOLOGY AND PHILOSOPHY

Michael Balint – Hungarian Jew, psychoanalyst, he fled from Nazism

Sigmund Freud – Austrian Jew, founded psychoanalysis, he fled from Nazism in Austria

Anna Freud – daughter of Sigmund, also a psychoanalyst, she fled with him

Ernest Gellner – Czech-Jewish philosopher. He fled from the Nazis.

Stephan Korner – Czech-Jewish philosopher. He fled from the Nazis.

Claude Lévi-Strauss – French-Jewish philosopher and anthropologist. He was a French refugee

Karl Popper – Austrian-Jewish philosopher; fled from Nazism to New Zealand

RELIGION

Jesus – his family fled from Israel because of King Herod

Muhammad (PBUH) – fled from Mecca to Medina in 577

Isaac Abravanel – Rabbi and politician – fled from Portugal to Spain

Rabbi Leo Baeck – Reform rabbi and holocaust survivor

Rabbi Hugo Gryn – Reform rabbi and holocaust survivor

Rabbi Immanuel Jakobovits – Chief rabbi of Great Britain – fled from the Nazis to Britain

Paul Kahle – Christian Hebraist. fled from the Nazis to Britain

Current Dalai Lama, Tenzin Gyatso – a refugee, he fled Tibet when China invaded

Mullah Krekar – Iraqi Kurdish mullah, lives in Norway

SCIENCE

Gustav Victor Rudolf Born – pharmacologist – German-Jewish refugee

Max Born – Nobel Prize for physics – German-Jewish refugee

Edith Bulbring – pharmacologist – German-Jewish refugee

Carl Djerassi – the inventor of the first contraceptive pill. He is an Austrian refugee

John Dollond – inventor of the achromatic lens. He founded Dollond and Aitchison; descended from Huguenot refugees

Albert Einstein – one of the world’s most famous scientists – German-Jewish refugee

Alexander Grothendieck – mathematician – German-Jewish refugee

Robert Fano – physicist – Italian-Jewish refugee

Ugo Fano – physicist – Italian-Jewish refugee

Bernard Katz – Nobel Prize-winning biophysicist – German-Jewish refugee

Sir Hans Krebs – Nobel Prize-winning scientist – German-Jewish refugee

Sir John Krebs – zoologist – son of Sir Hans Krebs

Liviu Librescu – physicist; fled from Romania to Israel [1]

Lord (Claus) Moser – British professor of statistics and head of the Government Statistical Service – Austrian-Jewish refugee

SPORT

Alexander Alekhine – chess World Champion, who moved from Communistic Russia to France.

Ossip Bernstein – chess grandmaster, who escape from Communistic Ukraine to France.

Efim Bogoljubow – chess grandmaster, who moved from the Soviet Union to Germany.

Fedor Bohatirchuk – chess grandmaster, who moved from Ukraine to Canada.

Jelena Dokic – tennis player and Serbian refugee

Mebrahtom Keflezighi – Olympic marathon silver medallist, Eritrean refugee to U. S. (via Italy)

Mario Stanic – former footballer with Chelsea. He used to play for Sarajevo F.C. who were targeted during the Bosnian War

Christopher Wreh – former Arsenal footballer and Liberian refugee

Lomana LuaLua – Football player who has played for

Colchester United, Newcastle United and Portsmouth was a refugee

TV AND FILM

Omid Djalili – comedian and actor. He and his family are Iranian refugees

Jackie Chan – Fled to the United States from Hong Kong after being threatened with death by the Triads.

Marlene Dietrich – actress and refugee from Nazi Germany

Ben Elton – comedian and grandson of a Czechoslovakian refugee.

Baron Lew Grade – television mogul and uncle of Michael Grade. He was a Russian refugee

Fritz Lang – film director, and a half-Jewish refugee

Jerry Springer – Talk show host. His parents were German refugees

Rachel Weisz – actress. Both her parents are Jewish refugees

Billy Wilder – film director and writer, and a Jewish refugee

Zohra Daoud – former Afghani actress and model, now settled in Malibu, California

WRITING AND PUBLISHING

Yasmin Alibhai-Brown – journalist and author, and a Ugandan refugee

Isabel Allende – author of The House of Spirits. She is a Chilean refugee who fled after receiving death threats following the overthrow of her father’s cousin, Salvador Allende

Elias Canetti – a Bulgarian refugee, he won the Nobel Prize in Literature in 1981.

Joseph Conrad – author of Heart of Darkness and a refugee.

Anne Frank – as a child she fled from Nazi Germany to the Netherlands.

Karen Gershon – as a child she fled from Nazi Germany to Great Britain.

Michael Hamburger – as a child he fled from Nazi Germany to London.

Lord Paul Hamlyn CBE – a Jewish refugee from Germany. He was the founder of Octopus Publishing Group

Victor Hugo – author of Les Misérables and The Hunchback of Notre Dame. Due to his political beliefs, he was forced to flee France several times.

Ismail Kadare – a winner of the Booker prize who fled Albania in 1990 for political reasons.

Ruth Prawer Jhabvala – novelist and film screenwriter – German-Jewish refugee

Judith Kerr – children’s writer – German-Jewish refugee

Thomas Mann – winner of the 1929 Nobel Prize in Literature. He moved from Germany to Switzerland and from there to the USA.

Rigoberta Menchú – an author and Guatemalan refugee. She won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1992

Vladimir Nabokov – Russian author and lepidopterist. Escaped to Europe from the Russian Civil War and then to the United States from the advance of Nazi Germany.

Ursula Owen – editor of Index on Censorship. She was a German refugee as a baby.

John O’Donnell-Rosales – Cuban author, poet and journalist, escaped from Cuba with the remnants of his family after years of persecution for their political and religious views.

Reinaldo Arenas – Cuban novelist. Became a refugee in the USA after years of persecution for his sexuality and political ideas. His autobiography, Before Night Falls, was on the New York Times list of the ten best books of the year 1993 and was made into a film in 2000.

Felix Salten – author of Bambi – Hungarian-born Jewish refugee from Nazis

Samuel Ullman – German-born poet

Loung Ung – a survivor of the Killing Fields of Cambodia, is an activist and author of the books, First They Killed My Father and Lucky Child.

Really neat article - thanks for posting

Knowledge = These refugees are from a Nation we are at war with.

Common Sense = Delay allowing them into our Country for the time being.

I think Clem said that's exactly what's happening.

Knowledge= Obama will force the Syrian refugees on us despite the fact a majority of us want them delayed.

Common Sense = Obama does not represent his people.

Ok, you have a list of refugees. You do know the FBI followed Einstein around for over 10 years after he got here, right? They thought he was subversive as he was a pacifist and suspected communist. I think they kept up the investigation until his death.

Refugee does not mean they are good people. As I posted earlier, after WWII Truman put out an executive order to take extra caution in the backround checks on German refugees. It's the administration I don't trust in this, as they seem too eager to bring these people over.

and i applaud you for your efforts. Your efforts will help to create a dialogue between people who honestly want to find a way to do the right thing and feel they are being protected by the government whose job it is to protect them... You have a much better chance of influencing people than those who mock and name call... As always, thanks Clem.

I know.

Common sense would dictate you don't let citizens of a country who hate your guts and everything America stands for to freely walk into your country.

It's just idiotic. Now I have no problems with refugees from places that don't have us listed as their hated enemy. I hear some folks quote the bible. Well when the romans were coming Jesus told his disciples to put their swords on and protect themselves. Nothing in the Bible supports committing acts that endanger your family. It is actually our sacred duty to protect our families.

I don't support allowing any citizen of a foreign country with animosity towards the USA to set foot on our shores. The only thing Obama is doing is putting the needs of our enemies ahead of those of his own people's safety and if you ask me he should be tried for treason for it.

I do not trust our government to protect the citizens of this country, especially while Obama is president.

With that being said, I am open to refugees from anywhere IF and WHEN proper vetting CAN and DOES occur. IMO the above criteria cannot be met when we are in a state of world terror.

Common sense would dictate you don't let citizens of a country who hate your guts and everything America stands for to freely walk into your country.

I'd also like to add..how in the world can I trust obama when he talks out of the side of his mouth..is wrong about damn near everything he touches..and completely says one thing and does the complete other.

If that guy hasn't been in trouble over fast n furious and all of the other corrupt stuff he has been apart of..he will NEVER be held accountable for anything.

By the way Clem, nice post. Appreciate your effort.

Thanks.

It opened my eyes to how many steps are required to gain entrance to this country. I thought others might appreciate the new info. Glad you got something from it.

But to some its not new info:) or am I having a senior moment and you meant new to the discussion on the board??

Either way not being confrontational just saying..I like aout 99% of what you say so don't think I'm being obtuse Clem

The intricacies of the steps really was new to me. If this info is review for other posters, I applaud them or being better-informed than I was. So, yes.. new to the board discussion AND perhaps new to other posters like me.

No confrontation perceived here, Dawg. all is good.

Believe I understand your point of view Clem. Syria is no joke though. They are a seriously dangerous breeding ground for terrorist and they have been for a VERY long time.

Part of their terrorist training routines are how to act like normal people until they are activated. You just cant trust people like that and say your being a responsible parent. If they pulled that crap and forced my town to take them in then I would be selling my house and moving because I won't risk my kids safety on the off chance that 1 in 10,000 is a sleeper waiting to blow stuff up.

Especially as it relates to politics, people define "common sense" in different ways... I think the best we can hope for is "calm and sense"..

Too much rhetoric, too much hyperbole, too much unnecessary fear, too much name calling and labeling... it's all just too much to actually have a reasonable conversation.

I have some questions. Are you going to treat the new refugees with the same respect you treat your fellow Americans who have different opinions than you?

Are you going to call them homophobes? Because many of them will be.

Are you going to call them religious zealots? Because quite a few of them will probably fit your definition of that trait.

Are you going to call them misogynists? Because a number of them will be.

Are you going to call them set in their ways and unable to change with the progressive times? Because they will have trouble with that part of life here.

Will you treat them with the same love and compassion that you treat Americans that don't agree with your beliefs? Because they may want to go somewhere else if they get that kind of treatment from a large number of people here....or maybe your compassion is reserved only for those who do not live in this country.

Wowsers what a great post..I'm golf clapping at the moment.

Had to give it to the Belgium Foreign Minister last night on TV DC .. He flat came out and said he was trying to put the breaks on Immigration from Middle East refuges because he did not believe the two Cultures could coexist ! ! ! That the middle eastern Culture would never assimilate into the Belgium Culture ,, Wow .. The Country was at war with itself because of the the Cultural clash they are dealing with right now ..

Don't sprain your wrist old man

He might accuse you of having homophobicaphobia.

I'll do my best sir..I've not read her stuff in what seems like a long while.

I forgot how smart and to the point she is..

Where and what causes Rocket to cry such strong words? The fact that a terrorist attack, by no known refugees, suddenly caused millions of Americans to act this way towards refugees from Syria. Clem's posted many different times about how stringent we tend to be with refugees compared to other nations dealing with the same issues.

Many of the same concerns you listed about the mindset of them coming here already exist with our own citizens. I'll treat them with the utmost respect (as I already do), look for appropriate times to discuss why they may act a certain way, and try to find opportunities to find common ground despite ideological differences.

I truly believe people are good at heart, Jules. Sometimes people just don't realize the ramifications of what they say and think. I'll call it out if no opposing voices are heard. Someone has to do it. Even MLK said indifference ends up siding with those who commit evil acts.

This board runs quite right on the political compass, and so be it if my views run quite counter to the board. That's to be expected with the differences and times of the generations we were all raised in.

yes.


yes



yes



yes


yes. which is funny because these muslims have a lot in common with republicans as far as being stuck in the past. they will fit right in with american culture. funny ain't it. they don't call us a melting pot for nothing.



yes. because no matter what. at the end of the day, since day ONE, i have always said i care about the man/woman beside me. i doesn't matter what we believe in. it doesn't matter if i disagree with you.

we all deserve equal rights, human rights, and a chance to be happy.

Because i'm american and believe in our american values and culture. i don't care if you're american or from somewhere else, i'm gonna run my mouth and treat everybody equally.

i'll keep posting this until somebody responds:

Why shouldnt we be stringent with refugees?? Especially from a place that celebrated 9-11 and is not just harboring terrorists but creates them their-selves.

If you think you'll ever find common ground with Syrians then your either not being truthful naive or you are in the same mindset as them.

Did MLK deal with what the US is with terrorists? I loved MLK's ideology but my God your delusional if you think your going to 'reason' with syrians and find 'common' ground..well good luck with that.

They'd just as soon put your head on a pike then discuss common ground..

I'm not right/left independent I'm just me. Take my life experiences and apply it to my decision making process.

Maybe rocket optimist isnt right name..maybe eternal optimist would be better..not a jab quite serious actually.

Ive not quite got my bearings to me this morning but what point are you trying to make Swish?

He probably thinks if we don't allow them in, the jews will kill them.

that when we deny people who are trying to escape death....well they end up dying.

i dont see any moral high ground in that.

are you that dense?

No, but I think you are. I could post until my fingers bleed on incidents of former refugees posing a problem to this nation, the actual rules that determine a refugee by this country, and isis' promises to send their jihadists in with refugees, and you will ignore it.

because i never denied that there's a handful of people that do bad things.

but what you're ignoring is the VAST majority who don't.

i see both sides. you only see your side.

see? you're dense. oh and i'll throw in close minded.

Eternal optimist Isn't viewed as a jab at all. You're fine. Life experience teaches me a ton, and influences who I am.

I've had many great interactions through my different jobs. Found common ground with colleagues and guests from all over the globe during my ten months at Disney World, spent a good year and a half serving the inner-city population of Toledo, Ohio as a student teacher where we discussed Language Arts through a critical lens on racial relations, and now living in Alaska being a minority in my own place of home and work.

I've been blessed to experience many different cultures, and it shows me all people are good at heart. Not all Syrians hate America or western ideas. They just need to escape an echo chamber.

Hey Swish, off topic but i'll take you up on your offer..I leave soon to visit my son at Schofield Barracks..when I get settled in and get the hello's out of the way I'll give you the information we discussed.

And by the way thanks for helping make a decision:)