DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum It's Time to Fire Pettine and Farmer.

I agree w/the first part of your post. Very rational. Logical.

The second part is logical and rational, too.......I just don't agree w/your assumptions.

I think the Browns will be the losers should they let JM walk. I think he should be given an opportunity to prove if he is--or is not--the guy.

It's not because I love Johnny Manziel. I love no player. Never have. Never will. It's because I think that drafting qbs is tough and it's never a guarantee. No position is a guarantee, but man, a qb is either so uplifting or draining on your team.

I could easily see us allowing JM to walk and him studding out and us drafting another project qb who never pans out. I think the terrible culture that plagues the Browns has a lot to do w/this.

We really have to let Manziel play. Suppose he picks up where he left off in Pittsburgh (yes, I know we lost), and strings together 4-5 300-yard games and throws 10 TDs? Not at all inconceivable. If he did, we would have a whole lot of options with that draft pick. If he didn't, we would know just what to do.
If he grows up half as much this off-season as he did last, he would be just fine. I really, really don't want to cut him because of a fib about an Instagram picture of legal activity and then watch as he pans out for someone else. That would be classic Browns.
Maybe he is too small. Maybe his college game won't translate. Can we just find out?

I can't believe you have to ask that question.

Love how the team's losing game after game and it's always on Manziel, the QB, and not the scheme the coaching the lackluster oline and the poor defensive play.. Pettine needs to man up on poor prep and coaching.

You know what's weird? I could tell that halfway through Chud's first season that the team didn't play for hard for him. Toward the end you could tell they had quit. Then all kinds of reports come out that the players didn't respect Chud, etc.

With Pettine, you look at the product on the field, and I don't necessarily get those same feelings. You get the feeling of stupidity...as in what the hell are these guys doing. You get the feeling of cluelessness. You just generally get the feeling that the guy is in way over his head and has zero idea what he's doing.

I think going 7-9 last year gave Pettine a big head and a false sense of power.

I guess that would depend on what program they are in and what their history is. I am betting that part on JM being the starter was an agreement that he would keep his nose clean which he didnt do.

And people are still using this thought process as the main reason he was benched.

That's all well and good, but as was asked previously, why should an adult be put in a position where one feels the necessity to lie about doing something that is legal and hurt no one?

Pettine is a petty man who talks about playing the guy "that gives us the best chance to win" then did the exact opposite when Mccown went down. I remember Gruden making the comment that he was baffled that Manziel and Bowe were on the sidelines watching when the game was on the line. Yeah I am sure Bowe has father time creeping up on him, but come on, he has to better then Marlon Moore.

Maybe at this point he knows he will be fired, and he is not playing Johnny on purpose so the new regime has to waste a year to see what they have in him. Maybe Johnny can be that guy and that would help entice a REAL coach (not a used up retread or long shot rookie) to come in. A top 2 pick, and a possible legit (not elite, but legit) QB could go a long way, Pettine knows that, and to me he seems petty enough to sabotage a future coach into wasting a year and a couple draft picks

Well, of course you are right. That is, assuming Manziel is (acting like) an adult, which he is not! The reason the Browns asked for restraint on his part is, I believe, they perceive that he is on a dangerous path to self-destruction as a person, as well as his career. They are trying to protect their investment and Johnny as a person. I see no conspiracy on Pettine's part (but of course we know there are always office politics involved)...

Absolutely, mac! Both fabricating an outright lie and for having to force the Browns into a position where they asked for his restraint...

Forced to lie?

No, not really...but then...

if one steps back a little....JM was out partying that is a given....

When caught in the act he felt it necessary to lie, that would imply that in his mind he was caught doing something he knew he should not be doing... whether by policy, agreement or just plain common sense.

Not debating the rules of conduct he was seemingly required to live by, that debate will rage for ever and both sides have valid points; so much that line of demarcation is too blurred.

what is crystal clear however is that JM knew, HE KNEW what he did was an offense to some degree and that knowledge forced his hand, so yes in one sense he was forced to lie. But in the other, forced only because of his actions. So he was both cause and effect.

Right?! For the Johnny apologists, I just don't understand how he can be enough of a man to do what he wants on the weekends, but he should be pitied because he's not enough of a man to keep from being forced to lie... hell, he apparently isn't man enough to stand up for himself in the first place when Pet tells him what behavior is expected of him.

At this point, Manziel has only earned the same consideration for a roster spot than Austin Davis. Maybe half the problem is that he's being given the consideration of a guy who was drafted with the intent to be the franchise QB when he clearly was not. At best he was picked as a 1st Rd project to see IF he could be. If the intent and belief that he would be a franchise type player, we would have drafted him earlier instead of Gilbert.

Four people liked that post? LMAO.......that tells me a lot.

I rarely agree with you mac, but this time I do. I can't believe people are blaming management for putting JF in a situation where he "had to lie". This is frickin' hilarious on many levels.

Insulting people that don't agree with you.....I swear there was a poster that requested people NOT do this.

I wonder who that was.....

What's hilarious is that people are blaming Manziel for this team's problems. They are crucifying for participating in activities that are legal and are also being done by other players on the team and throughout the league.

I really think that the Browns have done a terrible job w/the roster. They let a few good players walk because they didn't want to pay them and replaced them w/older guys and they threw big money at Bowe. Their drafts are downright embarrassing.

The coaching has been putrid. Players have regressed. Players have not developed. The scheme on defense is bewildering. The lack of a running game is a huge issue. Clock management has been atrocious.

There is another thread that talks about the Brown's qb play this year. It's dead on that the problem hasn't been the QBs, it's been in many of the areas that I just mentioned.

The Browns are deflecting blame away from the real perpetrators and onto Johnny, and the fans gobble it up and say feed me some more.

Oh, I agree that this team is dysfunctional from the top on down. But saying management made Johnny lie is laughable. If Johnny lied, it's because he agreed to something he couldn't/wouldn't comply with. That's on him.

No... no one is blaming Manziel for this teams problems. What we are doing is blaming Manziel for Manziel's problems.

I don't know.......I see what you are saying, but I guess I just never heard of that type of agreement before, unless it was w/a player who has already been suspended and/or arrested.

Is Pet making Joe Haden do the same thing? How about Gilber? Nah, this seems personal, as in Pet is not treating Manziel the way he does other players.

I am also beginning to believe that this story has a foundation of trying to deflect criticism. Again, the QBs have not been the problem this year. They have played well. Heck, I was really down on McCown during the off-season. Well, I was wrong and I am man enough to admit it. Other guys, like tab, were right. McCown played very well this year. Heck, even Johnny has played fairly well.

The problems w/this team lie elsewhere. The defense stinks. The running game stinks. The roster is perhaps the worst in the league. Guys are regressing. Young guys are not improving. Mingo's best year was his rookie year. Gipson, Haden, Bitonio, and a slew of others have regressed.

A lot of people on here think I love Johnny Manziel. I do not. What bothers me is that those running the show seemingly have no clue. I disagree w/almost every move they make. I think Pet is throwing Johnny out there to mask all of the "real" problems that this organization has. And people are buying it.

I believe anyone who in any way is blaming Manziel for anything other than football related issues should reevaluate their thought process. The entire problem of Manziel being suspended, if you believe it is a problem, has been created by Pettine. If Pettine wanted to discipline the player, fine him. What Pettine did was petty and vindictive. He wanted to make an example of Manziel. Ask yourself for what purpose? I asked myself this question and only one answer makes sense. Pettine has lost the locker room. They do not trust him. They have not bought into his schemes. It is evident in the play on the field and the record of the Browns. Pettine has created a mess with Manziel and I for one hope that Manziel outlasts Pettine. As for the issue Devil mentioned about having more issues with personnel, I think that is still undetermined. Pettine has a doghouse. Pettine has an agenda. How do we know Manziel cannot play in the NFL? How do we know Gilbert cannot play in the NFL? The word is coming from the people who are charged with preparing them for the NFL, the coaches. I feel they are being under utilized and misused.

Mingo, another some have claimed to be a bust, misused under Pettine for 2 years. We draft a pass rusher in Orchard, I watch him fall back into coverage nearly every down. Again misuse of a player's talents. Gilbert is back returning kicks when he is playing as your CB1 for Haden. Misuse of a player. Bowe is not able to play anymore? What a waste? Really Marlon Moore over Bowe? Really?! I think Bowe did not play because of the HC. Pettine claims he wants accountability. Who is holding Pettine accountable? Pettine is a failed HC who has in my opinion, not given the team's draft picks a chance to do what they were drafted to do. PETTINE MUST GO.

Voleur

agreed. You wanna be the leader? Act like it.

That's one reason I think we gave up on Chud way too early. I realized he lost a lot of games, but he had Weeden and Campbell at QB. One guy who was awful all around and another guy who I felt really didn't want to play to begin with. I thought all of his deficiencies could be reduced with time and learning.

The one thing he did, though, was show his team that he believed in them. He had stones and he wanted to win, going for it on fourth down a bunch. I really liked that, and I think the players did too.

Oh well, I'll stop lamenting the past now.

In a funny way, Manzeil holds some responsibility for this loss. Perhaps had he not decided to be an idiot, he'd have started and maybe, just maybe, if he played like he did in Pittsburgh, we come away with a blow out win. Who knows.

But no, this wasn't really his fault.

This was a total team and coaching staff failure.

As of last count, it was up to 7. I do not recall any post that had that many "Likes"...

I am not saying that he is not responsible for his actions, i am asking why is the front office/coaching staff creating an environment where he feels he had to take those actions? He made the choice, so he needs to pay the bill,obviously,but that does not make it right. To me, it just further illustrates the dysfunction within the organization. That is the angle I was attacking it from, as this thread is supposed to be about the question of Ray Farmer and Mike Pettine.

Pettine is obviously in over his head and makes decisions that leave one scratching their head, where is the accountability for that? Yes Johnny was forced to pay the piper for his actions, so who is going to pay for all the bone headed decisions this staff has made? Really, Austine Davis over Johnny with the game on the line in the 4th quarter? Marlon Moore over Dwayne Bowe? Clock management that looks like a first time coach in pop warner. predictable play calls and crappy personnel packages that telegraph the play even before they are lined up. Stupid penalties, player regression. Or are all of these Johnny's fault too?

Again, that tells me a lot about the collective intelligence of the board.

Can you any of you guys come up with a defense for Manziel other than trying to excuse his poor behavior and actions by trying to point out others?

You guys keep saying that Pet and Co. have created this environment where he feels like he had to lie... really? Describe that environment please. Pet's expectations as to what the #1 QB should meet have not been this big secret. So its not like Manziel was ambushed by having to be held accountable for something he didn't know he had to.

That tells me a lot too!

Should anyone take that as an insult or not?

I don't know. Should I have been insulted when you called me a douchebag?

I came into a fire pettine thread and we're in here talking about Manziel. There are 53 men on the roster, who has gotten better under pettine?

I'd argue that Manziel is the ONLY player to see marked improvement. So. yeah.

He contributes to this "collective intelligence" more than anyone.

Yes:

--he did not break the law.

--he was not arrested.

--he did not violate the agreement between the league and the NFLPA.

--other players on the team drink and go unpunished.

Now, can you address the real problems w/the Browns instead of only focusing on Manziel's issues?

How's the running game going?

How about that pass defense?

What about the tackling?

Are we playing w/discipline?

How are our draft picks doing?

How did we do in free agency?

Wasn't text gate a cool thing?

And, what about that record?

Now there's a point for discussion. The only one to improve under Pettine's watch is the player he despises.

Wait, are there people who are saying these things aren't issues?

All those months ago? Yes, you should have, and I specifically stated the intent and reasons in that statement at that time.

Difference is, I don't intentionally bait people by hiding behind purposefully vague general insults, then complain when something is thrown back at me as I expect you probably will within the next 20 posts on this thread...