DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Case for Keeping Them

Gird thy loins! Devil's advocate here. I should have been a lawyer.

It's a foregone conclusion among many in fandom and the press that we will perform yet another full reboot at the season's conclusion. Partly because we're knee-slapingly, hilariously awful but also because, well, this is Cleveland. The axe falls early and often in Cleveland. We don't do "wait and see" in Cleveland. Of course, if ever there were a season that justified the axe, this one is certainly it.

But It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. Who wants this gig? Ok, who GOOD would want this gig? Sure, there's lots of desperate guys or guys that wouldn't otherwise get the shot that would jump at the opportunity to lead any team but let's be honest, this just isn't a prized gig if you're a legit leader with a winning philosophy. A BIG reason it isn't is because of that notoriously quick hook. Plus, who out there excites you? Who seems like a slam dunk? There's that Spielman article but again, he wants this gig? Why? A boatload of cash and a president's title? Maybe, but for how long?

Another big reason is that our ownership is perceived as know-nothing and meddling (my favorite combination ) I think it could safely be said that Haslem has a lot to prove to potential GM's and coaches that working for him could actually work. One of the ways he could do that is do double down for another year with the current regime. I know, it could also be perceived as more managerial incompetence to allow failing leaders to continue to fail. But I think Haslem's bigger issue is the quick hook and meddling know-nothing thing.

(As an aside, I myself turned down a job in 2012 that would have paid me considerably more than I made then because I had no faith in the company's leadership and therefore my own stability /longevity /sanity. The company is still around but I don't hear good things from people I know there so I feel somewhat justified.)

I know one thing about failure. Some learn from it and respond and some crumble. Last year was their rookie year but this year was the 1st real year where their chickens came home and it was a failure. One thing we haven't done is to see how the guys we picked to lead respond to failure.

So, long view. Two years is not really that long. It feels infinitely longer because losing makes everything drag. This group feels particularly inept. But they didn't always. I know this is going to be a very unpopular position but I contend that the whole group, yep, even O'neil, should be kept. Why? Because it's the opposite of recent Brown's logic. Haslen sits down with the group at the end of the year, they do the post mortem, bring in some quality consultants like Wolf and others and lay out a real plan and how to support that plan for next year. They lick their wounds, they adjust, they learn, get back up and take another crack at it. If it fails, you gave them 3 years. Frankly, the minimum for un-damning the "damned if you do" side of the equation. Plus, Haslem goes a long way toward addressing his issues as an owner. Especially if he's seen to take measure to help his people succeed when everyone else expects the opposite of him.

We don't get a real vote. It's Haslem's call. There's 5 games left and if they're all horrendous tire fires this might be a moot thread. If the team at least shows fight and keeps it close then I think it there might be a case.

Thoughts? (Or slaps )

I might be inclined to agree with you, IF Pet showed any signs of adjusting or doing anything to help out the D.

If I remember last yr. He said that scheme didn't matter, that they would adjust the D to fit the players or put them in the best situation. This yr. players are playing all over the place and even have stated they don't know what there doing. Even though a dim wit like me can see nothings working, He refuses to put the players in to what they did best last yr. Why? And the way he handled the QB situation all yr. and his pissing contest with JM and the FO is really disturbing. I agree with Rish, I think he's giving the finger to the FO.

Curious, I haven't heard this. Where did you read that?

I actually agree with you. I think that when you put a rookie GM and a rookie coach in charge with no other "football" guys in the room then you have expect a learning curve. I'd like to see more progress from the coaching staff and front office but you can't give them the quick hook, it just doesn't make sense.

I think that for Pettine to keep his job, he is going to have to accept changes on his staff. I think that he will have to bring on an experience defensive coach as coordinator. I actually think that the offensive staff did pretty well, all things considered. I do think that Pettine needs help from a more experienced coordinator on the defensive side, as he wants to be more of a head coach and less of a "coordinator +". I just can't see that happening with O'Neill on board.

I understand your points, but there's certainly another side to this coin. Let me ask you this.... No matter what gamble Haslam may take with new hires, could it get any worse?



You see, I'm a person who really wishes to see some continuity. However, not simply for the sake of continuity. And far too many people believe that those of us who are advocating a change is based on W's and L's. With me that has almost nothing to do with it.

What do I believe that needs to be seen in order to "invest" in continuity?

On the part of the GM;

I need to see that the moves he makes in letting players go and adding veterans in the FA market fit the schemes and improve the play on the field.

I need to see especially his first two rounds of draft picks produce. I need to see that his picks enhance the system the HC wishes to run. As we see with JFF, Pettine wanted a pocket QB and the opposite was drafted.

On the part of the HC;

I need to see improvements on the field. That doesn't mean W's and L's. Clock management improvements. Discipline improvements. (less penalties) Basic tackling techniques. Those basic football 101 things that are basic coaching fundamentals.

You can't win a lot of games without talent. You can't expect a HC to be a miracle worker. But what you can expect is to see steady improvements on the field of the very essentials of the game.

I'm not seeing any of this from the GM to the HC. Players for the most part really aren't being developed, in many cases it appears they're regressing.

You need some basis with which to build continuity on and I'm seeing none of that.

We have rookies from the top down. GM, HC, DC, OC. There is no experience in this organization with which to guide the ship.

As it stands at this time, we will end season two of this regime even worse off than season one. That's a total lack of progress. There's nothing there on which to base continuity upon.

I hear all of those who say we need someone experienced or some great solution to the problem. And they may be right. But my bottom line is much simpler than that.

When something is completely broken, you must try to fix it. By simply continuing down a path of destruction, you accomplish nothing and aren't even attempting to fix anything.

If people don't see the regression, if they don't see the lack of improvement from the roster moves and draft picks, if they can't see the total lack of football fundamentals on the field, then I understand them not wishing to make such major changes.

However, I see both this GM and HC as being totally inept. I can't see that any improvements were made from season one to season two. Continuing to walk down a futile path only continues this pattern.

So my opinion is that we have absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain.

I hope you didn't feel slapped by my opinion.

T. Williams interview. I thought said a lot. Guys just don't think this is working. Veterans are confused.

Haven't we been asking this question since the return? The answer is, "Yes".

I would just counter that making changes does not necessarily mean changing bodies. I'm sure there will be changes in process which will hopefully lead to improvement. Only time will tell and two years is just not enough for an entire organization to change course from losing to winning.

There is no salary cap on front office or coaching staff. Haslam is rich as hell. I think he should BUY a quality staff. Throw as much money as it take at them..... Want Polian and son? Money. Want Gruden? Money. I think with enough money Haslam could get Cowher to consider it.

As for keeping these idiots? Sure. Why not. If you like what you're seeing and want more of the same, by all means lets sign them to extensions. For every losing season they get a 3 year extension, for every winning year they get nothing. That should show them the kind of football Cleveland fans want. The kind we are enjoying right now. Doesn't get better than this man. 2 and 9? SWEET. Lost 14 of the last 16? Greatest coaching job of all time. Pettine is the perfect coach for this team and this fanbase. He has this team playing like Browns, and he's beaten down the fanbase to the point they want MORE of this product(I can't bring myself to call it football). Here's hoping we do keep Farmer and Pettine. I really believe between the two of them we can go next season without one single sack and without one single rushing touchdown. Hell, they might even produce the very first back to back 0-16 seasons. We'd be in the record book! I like that idea. Pettine and Farmer, inventing new and exciting ways to lose. If that isn't playing like a Brown.....

Spirit you hit it right on the nose. Browns fans everywhere this year are having a blast watching this team. They could be the single largest reason I have to take blood pressure meds.

I'm all for keeping Pettine, but O'Neil has to go. There lies the problem. I have to believe that the FO is pissed about the defense. I'm sure they see the same thing we do. There are some good players on that side of the ball. IMO, Pettine is probably getting heat about O'Neil, and doesn't like the idea of his buddy being fired. As set in his ways, that he is, I wouldn't put it past him to tell the FO, if O'neil goes so does he.

I don't think Haslam wants to change anything, I don't think he wants to build on his quick trigger apppearance. But with a coach and a GM at odds, and I do believe that is the big problem right now, I don't think he has a choice.

O'Neil needs to go, and just about everybody agrees with that, but I can't see Pettine working with a new D coordinator. He tasted success with this scheme, although the run defense was poor then too, and with better players. I doubt highly he would succumb to a different defensive scheme, where his philosophy is not in play.

Maybe Farmer has a coach in mind, and his plan is to oust Pettine to take care of a friend. Who knows? The two are definitely not on the same page.
Clearly the players he has acquired, are not flourishing in Pettines scheme. But then again, maybe Pettine's ability to teach the scheme is what is lacking.

Either way, O'Neil needs to go, and if Pettine doesn't go along with the move, he needs to go too.

This organization claimed it worked by consensus, clearly there is no consensus. Maybe Scheiner is being involved more as a mediator. A referee, if you will.

They need to hire a GM, and let him hire the coaches. That seems to work the best. And I agree, a president of the "football" operations needs to be hired to oversee the process. Keep Scheiner on the PR side.

It's a mess, and the way they are handling Manzeil makes them look even more foolish. Manzeil is not being absolved here, but the way they are dealing with him in the public, is parochial.

Why? What has Pettine done to earn such loyalty? Name one accomplishment? Name one thing he's done, just one, that makes you think he's a quality coach? That has improved this team?

We are worse across the board. Our defense is unwatchable. It's beyond pathetic. HIS scheme.

Good post.

If Saban wants the job, I would give him whatever he wants and to hell w/everything else. The problem is that he most likely won't want the job and/or Haslam wouldn't give him full control because of Sheiner's influence w/the team.

Other than Saban..........I really have no idea what this team will do or what they should do.

If we don't get Saban, I pretty much see us continuing our wayward ways whether we stick w/Farmer and Pet or hire some new up and coming guys.

I have almost zero hope that this franchise will turn it around in the next five years or so.

Pettine 'full-speed ahead committed' to fixing Browns


On the latest Around the NFL Podcast, we unpacked a parcel of coaches facing uncertain futures as their teams spiral into oblivion.

Coaches saddled with "Hot Buttz" is how Dan Hanzus coined the segment, which featured, among others, Mike Pettine of the Browns.

Asked Thursday about his job security, Pettine -- whose Browns sit at a troubling 2-9 -- acknowledged that he might discuss his future with team owner Jimmy Haslam before the end of the season.

"Thank you for reminding me of that by the way," Pettine joked about his status. "Anybody that knows me and anybody that knows Jimmy Haslam, our conversations are always blunt. Time is so valuable during the season that we get into a conversation and we deal with topics head on. There's no dancing around them."

Said Pettine: "I feel very upset about the record. I've talked about this before, that that's on us. We own it. This is a bottom-line business and where we are isn't good enough. The question is: Do we have a plan to fix it? Is it fixable? I feel like we do, but we'll have to wait and see."

Cleveland's problems are widespread. Hired to fix a long-leaky defense, Pettine oversees a unit that ranks 31st against the run and 25th against the pass. It's not just the numbers: So many of the club's high draft picks -- cornerback Justin Gilbert and pass rusher Barkevious Mingo, for starters -- have barely made an impact.

The team spent all offseason promising a punishing, clock-chewing ground game, but the Browns haven't had a back run for more than 50 yards since Week 4. That said, first-year coordinator John DeFilippo has put together a surprisingly strong passing attack that represents the team's greatest strength.

Pettine knows the record is a mess, but assured scribes that he remains "full-speed ahead committed to getting this fixed here in Cleveland."

"I know the results aren't anywhere near where they need to be but that doesn't mean that we're not making strides, that we're not getting it set up. It can be done," Pettine said. "To me, it's a belief that we can. I know we have five games left and we're going to go out and wear the Cleveland logo proud and try to win football games."

We can't help but question what kind of support Pettine has inside the building. Whispers have circulated for months about a front office that doesn't see eye-to-eye with the team's young coaching staff, leading to all sorts of questions about who stays and who goes come January.

After so many years of turnover and organizational flux, blowing up the machine again feels mildly insane. Find a big-name coach willing to take on this mess. You can't. Pettine's second season has been trying, but rebooting the machine simply invites more chaos for a franchise lost in space.

We'll find out soon enough if Haslam agrees.

I have never heard of Chat Sports, nor of the reporter Mack Ferguson, but I saw this today. Anyone know if it's credible?

http://www.chatsports.com/cleveland-brow...l-history-24607

As for 10yr's post, I have to admit I'm torn. What you are talking about is what I've been advocating...but as others have pointed out it seems like things are getting worse, not better. I see your point that the real test may be how they react to this year's adversity as opposed to last year's relative success. But I absolutely agree that whether we clean house or bring in an intermediary between Haslam and GM/HC, the organization needs experienced help.

My feelings are as follows:

1. Farmer, first round selections have been a disappointment. Gilbert, now is revealed to have an attitude issue. Manziel was a selection that brought unnecessary drama, and we have enough drama now for several teams. Shelton has been unremarkable, Erving appears to need to work on his strength.

Another area where I have a complaint is the ability of Farmer to identify need and to fill the need with a draft selection. The WR issue stuck out like a sore thumb, and he failed to address these areas with plausible draft selections. 2nd, third, fourth round prospects were overlooked.

As far as free agents, no issue with Williams, Whitner or Dansby... Bowe is enough to send everyone over the edge... Terrible.

Free agent finds have been good. Kwan looks like a keeper, Meder as well. Crowell is a positive, although I do not know iff he fits in the long term plans.

2. Pettine An honest assessment is that this is mixed. We don't know the particulars of the Shanahan departure, but it raises questions regarding infighting amongst staff. The lack of credible coaches, including the Moller incident raises challenges. The handling of Manzeil has been a problem as well.

The drop off in run production has been an issue. Barnridge is a pleasant surprise.

Two years out, the Browns are still searching for a QB and there is no excuse that can satisfy the fan base, as Carr and Bridgewater look to be NFL caliper starters.

So, as of right now, I think the case for change is stronger than the case for keeping them.

looks like a clickbait lie to me (Browns to offer enormous contract to Meyer.)

I dunno ... but ......

Mack Ferguson - Featured Writer


Bio:
Mack Ferguson is a Featured Writer for Chat Sports. Growing up in Michigan, Mack is a big fan of the Michigan Wolverines, Detroit Red Wings and Detroit Pistons. A former University of Florida Gator, he also loves the Gators and the Miami Heat.


Seems like wishful thinking by a Wolverines fan. I see no way the team would let anything like this slip in the middle of the season.

Yeah, as much as I like Meyer, his teams always seem centered on a type of offense that works at the college level but not at the pro level. That doesn't mean he can't be successful, I just don't think it's automatic.

The case for keeping them needs to contain..

1.. Millions of dollars.

2.. Personal phone numbers to the most beautiful women.

3..100 bottles of the finest wines in the world.


The Emergency case...

A 9mm pistol with one in the chamber..


.............................OR..........................


Bring in Howie Mandel...no not Manziel..I believe outside of football he could handle the Browns case better than anyone..

I can hear him now.. "so what is it ?.... Deal or no deal ?


Honestly, I can state a case now... 5 games left in the season.

Honestly, I may change my case...

Very good thread though

I have recently lost all faith in the coaching staff. I never liked Farmer but was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. The handling of Manziel the past few weeks has my mind wondering if these guys have any clue at all...

And I have to admit that I am on the clean sweep bandwagon BUT at this point (2 years in) I will be okay if Haslam sticks to his word and keeps them; mostly because giving these clowns 3 years (or 4-5 years) will at least make the next HC search easier. I mean seriously, who would want to come here right now? Don't really want some retread HC that failed before, don't want another unknown coordinator, don't want the latest hot college coach (Meyer and Saban aside) and don't want to really start over again churning the roster.

I would like Farmer to go asap because he is either an idiot or the scouting staff is the worst ever, I tend to think it's Farmer.

I think the biggest question, for me anyway, is If Pettine is not willing to shake up the D and put players in the best position now, then what makes anyone think he will next yr? The only way any of this makes sense is IF he had orders to lose as many as possible, because the FO has somebody in mind and it's going to take a top #3 pick. I know I asked on another thread who's the top 5 in this draft? I don't know. He really does not like JM. JM seemed to work hard in the off season and kept his nose clean, until Pet yanked him out again after Josh came back, and was willing to even get Josh killed instead of putting in JM.

Here's a thought I have about a few of your comments..

1. The GOOD Coach that would come here is someone confident. A younger Bill Parcells would do the trick.

A Paul Brown or Vince Lombardi or even a Nick Saban type would take the job because of confidence. Of course each would NOT take it unless they have complete control.

2. As for Haslam being a meddling owner, you are right, that's perception and media hype. We don't have a clue what he's like behind closed doors.

Another perception is that Alex Scheiner is sticking his nose into Football operations to much. Again, I think it's a perception fostered by the media with no basis in fact. He is the President of the company.. He should be "In the know" about all facets of the company.. ALL FACETS..

As for Farmer and Pettine. Wow, that's a tough call, I like Pettine. He's a decent guy that was told to make a Steak out of hamburger... It's true what some say, he's made some very poor decisions on game day. But I wonder if he had REAL talent, would he make those same decisions?

(one thing I'm not questioning is his handling of Manziel, that spoiled brat who just doesn't get it)

As for Farmer, I'm sorry, but with the exception of a few players he's picked in later rounds or as UDFA, he's failed..TOTALLY FAILED. (Bitonio aside, who as it turns out, was a good pick)

I see no reason to retain him.

Ahh, but there is the rub. Who is going to want the GM job if he's gotta accept someone other than his choice as HC and Coaching staff?

I can't name one qualified person for the GM job that would take it under those circumstances.

So, I think it comes down to both go or both stay.

I vote they go.

Something needs to change, losing 14 out of your last 16 games is not acceptable in the NFL. It doesn't matter if it is the Browns or any other NFL team. Like Pettine said it's a bottom line business and the only thing that matters is wins and losses. As a fan I have no idea if it's coaching, the GM, a combination of both, if they are on the same page with personnel, if it's the owner and poor leadership.

The draft picks haven't been nearly good enough, why is that? Are they poor draft picks or does their skill set not match the schemes Pettine and his staff are running? Gilbert was the top rated cover corner coming out, Manziel was a Heisman trophy winner and improved his junior year being more of a passer than a runner, Shelton was the top NT for a 3-4 defense, Erving was the top rated center and played multiple positions in college including LT, RT before settling in at center. Shoot even Mingo was highly touted but as a DE not an OLB in coverage.

Is it Pettine or Farmer or both to blame for the product on the field? Someone has to be held accountable at the end of the year. If you hear them talk everyone is on the same page with personnel, schemes, etc. so what is the holdup, what is the problem? If you take a QB in the first round then you are investing that he is your future starting QB. What do you do next? You surround him with playmakers and build the offense around him. That's what Minnesota, Oakland, and Jacksonville are doing and they are having some success yet our 1st round pick sits on the bench only playing in 4 games or whatever the number is in two seasons. Bortles, Bridgewater, and Carr have all started from day one and have struggled but you see the improvements in their play and their teams records show it.

Haslam needs football people at the top of the organization to run the Browns like a NFL team, not as the Flying J pilot business. The NFL is a business and you need those people in place too but you need football people making the football decisions and I don't think the Browns have had that for a long time.

So who goes and who stays, nobody knows at this point but something has to change for this team to move forward and become even a .500 team.

As of right now I am leaning towards getting rid of everyone from Farmer on down. For many of the reasons that others have stated, lack of ability to draft playmakers in early rounds, lack of team discipline on and on.

I firmly believe that the problems and the solution start at the top. We need someone with final say over all things football. I think if we have a respected football guy in place at the top then attracting a coach/GM becomes easier. I say throw the checkbook at Bill Polian and let him go from there.

It is going to take luck and patience to get the right person. Look, if Haslam fires Pettine and/or Farmer, he will have fired 3 regimes in 4 years. (Heckert/Shurmur, Banner/Lombardi/Chud, and Farmer/Pettine) That is not the kind of situation a lot of higher quality people are going to rush into. Why would they? Does anyone really think that Bill Parcells, in his prime, would rush into a situation where the team has no franchise QB, limited talent, and a year or 2 to produce or be fired? I doubt it. Most head coaches get one shot at the big chair, and if they go into a dumpster fire, they are unlikely to get a 2nd, even if they did a great job with what they had for a year or 2. Haslam has to be getting a reputation throughout the league as an impatient, interfering owner, and that will only be reinforced if he makes massive changes yet again. Getting a top flight candidate to come here here will be difficult, because what top end candidate wants to use up his one shot on such an iffy proposition? I wouldn't. I mean, I have take on some real reconstruction projects in business, but i also had assurances that I would get the time necessary to turn the things around. You don't take a battleship going 30 knots and do a sharp 180. It might take miles, not feet for that ship to make that kind of turn. An admiral may order the ship to make a 180 at 30 knots within 30 feet ..... but what commander is going to take on that kind of task?

Pettine has one thing right, and that is that the atmosphere in Cleveland is toxic, and is going to take time to change. The team may need a 75%-90% personnel change. There will be bumps. This might be worse than turning around the Bungles of lore, or the Colts under the elder Irsay. The Colts had 9 losing seasons in a row, but had 3 winning seasons in 15. The "Bungles" had 14 non winning seasons out of 15. They made the playoffs, then hit a 3 season skid. The Bengals leadership stayed with Lewis though, even after he followed an 11-5 season with a 7-9, and then a 4-11-1 season. He rewarded their patience. Most Bengals fans wanted him fired. Commentators said that he was only kept because Brown was too cheap to fire a coach who wasn't working for him. His decision was shown to be correct, as the Bengals have improved and improved to the point where they are now legitimate Super Bowl contenders, with great talent at most positions.

I do not know if Pettine is the guy to turn this team around or not, but I do know that Haslam has to be very careful that he does not become "that" owner, who hires B or C level coordinator, one after another, without the success he craves.

If I were Haslam, I would keep the status quo for one more year at GM and head coach. I would make it clear that this is the year where they have to show some results ..... getting the right players in, and coaching up those who have struggled. I would probably require a few changes among the assistant coaches. I would want an overview of the process used to find players for the team. However, Haslam is only asking for a C or D level candidate is he makes another change already. If he gives Farmer and Pettine year 3, and they d not deliver, well, that is a reasonable time frame to start showing some results. 2 years though ...... man, that's tough.

I agree w/some of your points. For example, Haslam might keep both Farmer and Pet for the exact reasons--regarding perception--that you mentioned.

I disagree w/the ship analogy because the ship should not be moving backwards.

I was speaking more of the momentum of most of the past 15 years .... that is hard to overcome.

I agree w/you there.

My point was that not only have we not turned it around, but we seem to be regressing. We have lost 14 out of the last 16. That is terrible.....even for the Browns.

The roster is poor. We got rid of some younger players and brought in older players. Our drafts are embarrassing. Our defense is ranked what? 31st? I think we are last at both stopping the run and running the ball. We give up a ton of huge plays. There's drama surrounding the team.

It's not pretty, YTown.

I really don't know what the answer is. It appears to be a dismal situation.

Lots of football guys out there,, we've had them and it's not been successful. It has to be the "RIGHT" football guy and I don't know who that would be?

Polian? Maybe.

Zero reasonable reasons to keep anyone in the Organization at this time .. We are stuck with Haslam though .. As I have stated before ; I can't wait for the end of the Season because Haslam will have to face the press then !

The case you state is well-stated and relevant.

Do we really want to waste one more year with our young players (and their cheap contracts) with a staff that has shown they can't develop young talent (this includes the players that we will be drafting in 2016)?

Do we really want our players bad habits to be ignored for another season (tackling comes to mind)?

I agree. Holmgren was a football guy who was only looking for a paycheck for himself and all of his agents other clients. Zero integrity on his part.