DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Case for Keeping Them

Agree with keeping Pett and Flip, but qualify it. What's on the field is not working like it seems to on paper. Teams with better performances get more out of simpler stuff and are more hostile than this defense has been especially.

We can only learn by mistakes, and this HC and OC and DC have embraced some stuff that they may believe passionately is the right philosophy for attacking and defending.
But we have over coached, over thought, or whatever.

Demand changes and honest hard scrutiny of the stuff that cost us games and hasn't produced. Because I don't trust the judgment driving decisions in game prep, adjustments (not seeing much), and judging players. No draft will cure these things.
JMHOs.

I would give you my thoughts, but you are on "iggy"

This is the problem with just cutting some big name a big check. Theiy end up just being mercenaries. They clean up for a few years with little to no real loyalty and then move on. Incidentally, that's a big part of the problem in the banking and financial services sector as well.

I see this next phase as being Haslem's gauntlet more than anyone else's. He doesn't strike me as the kind of old dog that can learn new tricks, especially really hard, self reflecting, ego swallowing tricks. I'm hoping against hope he has a come to Jesus where he realizes he needs to be the first one to create the culture, to be a balanced and rational leader who knows how to see and listen, seeks qualified counsel and acts in the measure. Because for as long as he's just the disorganized, undisciplined, impulsive short-cut taker we will always be hapless.

It's been said a thousand times but we're not going from where we are right now to a winning ball club next year. It's true. I don't have a lot of faith that Farmer and Pett and co turn it around but I think more than anything else I want Haslem to show courage and leadership. Not just bluster and words. I totally get the idea that you don't throw good money & time after bad but he's got to prove that he's giving this group all the tools, resources and time possible to be successful. Not just so they can be successful, but also because people in the league need to see that from him. I just hope we at least don't continue to go all wacky sax for the last 5 games. There is a scenario (and we're not far from it imo) where Haslem has no freakin' choice.

I had to "toggle off" to see your comment as well. That's cool dude. We can keep things just the way they are.

gipson said it, and paul kruger said it. they dont know what the line is doin and the secondary doest know what the linebackers are doin.

That's the thing about Polian.. Is he the same as holmgren at this point. Hey, didn't he have a son that worked with him in Indy?

I think Polian is a bit too old for such an undertaking, but he doesn't strike me as having the same low character as Holmgren and I don't think he would purposely rape the team.

Nice post - and maybe it's run through a lot of posters minds. I know I have been hoping to see something this year. I have not jumped on the "clean house" band wagon ... and like you I want to see continuity. But - just like you - it can't be for the sake of continuity.

So - here's my 2 cents and where we are now. This is sort of the speed typing cliff notes version:

Pettine -

He came in and made an immediate impact. Won more games last year than most expected. At the time I liked how he handled the QB role and did not hand the starting job to JM. I thought the team played with more discipline than in years - and he seemed accountable and took ownership of bad performance by coaching staff and called out the players when their performance was lacking. He had game management issues and other rookie HC issues - but nothing you wouldn't expect.

Sadly - this year I see less discipline, the same game management issues, a soft training camp that seems to have set the tone for the entire team and year, the team and coaching has regressed, If shanny was some sort of genius (allegedly) Flip as a rookie OC has done okay or better than okay - O'Nail is a disaster and Pet is fine with it. Instead of seeming transparent and accountable, the platitudes and spin is there. Unlike some on here who seem to think Pettine needs to tell the truth all the time - I don't want him to do that. There is a TON of laundry that needs to be kept in house. But there is a middle ground where that I'd like to see and just isn't there.

Farmer -

I wanted Mack or Wtkins - but the trade down was a great move and I thought it was a great start. I liked the theory of getting a shut down corner with the first pick. While I wanted nothing to do with JM pre-draft, I was thinking at the #5 selection ... at 22 I was justifying the selection that maybe it was good value. I would have taken Carr - but we had JM and he was a Brown so I was going to root for him. The rest of the draft and the undrafted rookies we signed seemed to be a better haul than we normally got ... I liked Kirksey a lot - and Desir. I was willing to wait and see. All the noise about the JM pick being Haslam's - the txt gate ... none of us know the truth, so I put it aside. Farmer seemed genuinely contrite in interviews after the events came to light. The WR thing and the Gordon thing, sure I would have dome something different, Austin was solid and Hawkins flashed ankle breaking ability. Not drafting a WR wasn't a big issue to me if their was a different plan in place.

This year - a big Ngata type NT to help the run game - made sense. Back up center? Huh? Pick got some kudos from various sports media. Like the rest of the picks - wait and see.

Bottom line - as of today - Pettine seems to have regressed. Certainly no progress. After the loss to the Ravens he lost all my respect. [1] zero passion [2] BS about headset issues because they let the clock tick away, playing conservatively ... everything. . . . . . SEE YA. Farmer - it's early to rubber stamp or grade his two draft classes. But the signs are abysmal. I see less there to encourage me then I do Pettine. SEE YA.

At this point keeping either of them would entirely be keeping them purely for the sake of continuity. There is nothing to encourage me that a different future with better outcomes is available by keeping them. It's broke - so fix it.

I get that part of the equation is - who is going to sign who is better.... but at this point I'd take a flier on some unproven rather than keep these 2. And if it took a ridiculous boatload of cash to get a true football guy into the FO in some capacity, like Ron Wolf or another 'character' guy with a cast iron track record, I wouldn't think twice even if they were paid 50% more than the next highest paid person doing the same job. I'd look at Gruden as I think he has enough personality and passion that he'd make a difference even if I think he's got a 3-4 year lifecycle as a HC of one team.

The last thing that has to happen - Haslam puts a football guy in charge as President and leaves every aspect of the hiring process and football operations in place.

I can only hope!

Nice post. I enjoyed reading that.

This is most of a post I put on another thread in reply to some comments about Joe Thomas. It fits better on this thread because the message of the post was about how this organization should move forward:


I love Joe T. No one championed us drafting him more than I did. Pit was close, but heck, I think I even brought Joe up to Pit, long, long before the draft. I have championed him since he arrived.

I am talking about attitude. I don't care who the coaches are, but our team has been soft for a long time. The only time we showed any toughness at all was when Mangini was here, but that toughness was developing and he wasn't in control long enough. Everyone knew he was dead-man-walking after 1.5 years.

The team was beyond soft for Pat. They quit on Chud. Camp Cupcake this year. I believe that our best players are pretty soft. There are players who like to win and there are players that hate to lose. I don't think our leaders hate to lose.

The Browns have lost more games than they have won for a long, long time. I think while they have accepted losing. They don't like it, but they don't have that mindset where they will do anything to not lose.

I think the culture has to change. I think the mindset of the team has to change. I think guys like Joe T and Haden would fit great on teams like New England, Denver, Pittsburgh, Seattle, etc where they were not the team leaders, but just valuable contributors who were part of a culture that expects to win and refuses to lose.

I think that the only way this franchise can become a winner is to completely change the culture and/or mindset. I think Mangini was trying to do that, but he really only had a year before The Big Show was brought in. I think Banner saw it and was putting a plan in place, but unfortunately, most of you thought he was one of the three stooges. I think that we need someone dynamic to come in here and change the way the entire operation goes about their business.

That is why I believe Saban is the guy. He will have to be given full control. Heads will roll. And some of our best players will probably have to be moved. The fans will hate him. The media will hate him. It will be similar to when Belichick was here. But, if Haslam really wants to win, he will hire Saban and give him as much time as he needs and to hell w/the vocal fans and the media who will try to run him out of town. All of those people will come back once the team starts winning.

I have almost zero hope of us turning this around if we keep both Farmer and Pet or if we replace them w/two more "up-and-comers." Heck, I think replacing them w/two more unknowns would be even dumber than keeping them. But either way, the outlook is bleak. We need Saban to come in and change the entire way things are done in Cleveland!

It should be an interesting off season to say the least.

There is no case for keeping these guys. The product on the field is a statistical outlier. There's no coming back from that.

I would have to agree with this and don't you think it really has to really come from the top down first? I've been reading a lot on Kraft and how he turned around the franchise...He loved the Patriots growing up, he loves the area, and he loves sports and he was loved by the fans before they started winning. Somehow he charged the fans and the franchise before it translated into wins on the field..

Some other franchises that have 'turned it around' a bit in my lifetime - New Orleans & Tampa Bay & now Oakland for now- at least from a point where they are no longer considered laughable...

You would have thought that with Lerner / Policy / Clark we'd get some foundation started and maintained...

Back to today..seems like if we could lock down all they key FO positions..begin to create an identity on O & D, have alignment with coaches & staff on accountability, schemes, and then draft and pickup players that fit maybe we can do just that.

It is obviously hard enough to win consistently in this league with all the above...Look at SF and how the FO - Coach fight probably just set back the organization a few years..

Then you get into coaches..tenure - common thread in these guys are they own 12/15 of the past Superbowl's...

Strangely enough - of these AFC North owns 1/2 of the longest tenure coaches since we came back into the league.

Pats 2000
Bengals 2003
Giants 2004
New Orleans 2006
Steelers 2007
Ravens 2008

For most other teams not on this list, they have an easier time moving up the food chain due to the fluctuations within their division and get the benefit of 'down years' by other members...us not so much

The mindset will change - and note that is not hope - but a true belief in winning when we top to bottom alignment and then leaders / players.

Leaders on the field make other players on the field better...Not sure who on our current team fits that criteria - albeit he do have some tough players..Create an environment where winning is what we do and not something we strive for..as cliche as that sounds...

Good points about the coaching staff - but isn't that too little?

I'll give you every point you made has a lot of validity. . . [1] By extension, Farmer was thrown in late, he should get a pass on his first draft - right? And Haslam pick JM so he gets a pass there too - right? [2] While identifying, keeping and working with quality coaching is important - the product on the field is WAY more important and a bigger insight into what Pettine brings to the table as a HC in my opinion. The play, attitude, culture, discipline - all come directly from Pettine. We've had worse or as bad teams that played hard every single game. We've had worse teams coached better during games. THAT is the issue.

If he stays I'll find a way to root for him - and I will give him a chance but he'd be on a ridiculously short leash. There would need to be improvement in so many areas of his management and responsibility. Frankly I don't see it happening in a month of Sundays.

Vers, I think it is more the talent needs to change. You can get mean and demand, but in the end it boils down to talent. I firmly believe this team has a lot less then people want to believe. I've noticed more this year from last year based on a tougher schedule.

I feel Farmer has stabilized the talent. Now he, or if Haslam feels another GM and staff is needed, continues adding talent. There is legit talent at every position. Not like years past where Browns found a player simply to field a position. Truly looking at the roster you have several people for every position. Adding better talent at certain spots will greatly improve the overall team.

I believe this to be true as well. People are looking at our team's talent based off of player's potential or what they have done in the past. These guys, especially the defense, stink. The only place we have an elite talent is in pass protection.

I'll give Farmer a pass at CB as who could foresee Haden falling of the map - and Williams I like a lot, Desir showed a lot of promise last year.

OLB is a position of need, with no depth. ILB is shallow and no depth. DL continues to struggle. (scheme adds to the issue but simply we don't have play makers - shoot anyone watching the Lions on Thursday night must only have been able to marvel at what they did to get proessure seemingly on every snap).

OL can't run block, we have too many similar skill set WR's. I like our RB's and I liked McCown and had high hopes even before the season started. He may even be a viable option in 2016 (not prefered but viable) if recovers from injury 100%.

His drafts have been woeful from what has been shown to this point - you only have to look at the Raiders to see players we could have had and the turnaround they have shown to scratch your head.

AND --- I forgot to mention the biggest nail in Farmer's coffin so I will mention here - B-O-W-E ... what a complete and total waste of money, signing, roster spot, reps, effort. possibly biggest FA bust of all time - has to be top 5.

Remember when we drafted a backup offensive linemen, who is not good, for depth, even though we had other gaping holes all throughout the roster?

That was fun.

But, I see both sides of the ball getting a player or two making a world of improvement. Who or what positions is debatable. Browns need young guys who pick up the torch from McCown and Dansby. I'm hoping we see someone these last five games. We keep blaming coaches but haven't seen any second and third year players stepping up.

I think you will find Erving will become very good next few years. OL has some pretty good starters. Erving was developed to be a backup. Yes, he wasn't great, but he didn't stink up the field like others in years past...Cousins as an example. Look at the overall picture of the OL. It is in pretty good shape compared to other positions. Browns can lose a Mack or Thomas and not be completely inept.

I say the DL, a tier down from the OL, is similar. It is not nearly as lacking as years past. You can lose a guy or two and still maintain the same level of play. I am not saying you can't improve, but it is not nearly in dire straights as it was a few years ago.

Secondary...to bad Gilbert isn't working out as of yet. Otherwise, that unit looks pretty solid. Removing Haden really hindered the entire defense. It forced the defense to play a different style then planned.

LBs...simply needs a leader with talent. It needs something better than Dansby. Not that Dansby isn't good need better.

WR/RB...one of each with real talent. Can Gordon come back next year and be that guy? Think about that unit if Gordon can play at the level he was two years ago. With Gordon, maybe the RBs are good enough.

I don't see this team as a huge dumpster fire as many state. I knew it would take time. With a little luck, I thought it would do better. This team needed a lot of improvement and continuity when Farmer and Pettine took it over. It is a lot to ask any GM/HC to make this team respectable in three years let alone two.

Good point, this gets me thinking if it really is the coaches blame.

Pettines belief in who ever practices best during the week gets the start. I wonder if this could be holding any second or third year player back.

If I understand this correctly, that means none of them are stepping up in practice to get on the field Sunday.

Would it not be the coaches responsibility to get them to step up ? I can see this turning into the Coaching vs Talent thread again.

The O-line was to be one the best in the League due to the talent level..Now it's being said, because the Browns fired Andy Moeller is the reason they aren't as good.

Same players different coach, then there's the McCown holds onto the ball to long argument.

I don't know, but it seems more Coaches get fired for bad play and losing...Then it is players getting fired for bad play and losing.

Did you watch the Monday Night game? Erving was getting blown up repeatedly.



That is why is was dumb that we took an offensive linemen! And we were told he was versatile, but now it turns out he can only play center (shocker).

DeisleDawg, what I mean is we have a team of Indians and no Chiefs. We hear good things from Joe Thomas and Joe Haden. Whitner, Dansby, and McCown are the guys who were brought in to help, but their talent level isn't good enough driving the others.

We need leaders. It is that simple.

cfrs15, I disagree. It was Erving's second game and played against Mosley and Smith last week. Two weeks ago he fought Atkins. All a tall order for most. Could he done better? Yes.

To me, this is a chicken and egg debate. Do you solidify a position or help another? I am totally in favor making the DL and OL the best possible. It makes all things easier.

For argument, let's say Farmer drafted someone other than Erving...a receiver. Other than Cooper, who among the receivers is doing lights out carrying a team? When Bitiono got hurt, can you tell me who is taking his place? If someone had a season ending injury, who do you feel comfortable playing?

We don't know the answer to any of these questions because we drafted Erving. Agholor has not been good (he has been injured). What if we draft him instead and he's our #1 receiver? He might be great.

Also, Erving is supposed to be good. I don't care who he is playing. We drafted him in the first round as depth and comes in and gets bullied by Brandon Williams.

Our front office was freaked out that Mack could leave at the end of the year (which was their fault), so they drafted Erving. They played him out of position the entire off-season. We were told he was versatile. Now that he's terrible, he's playing out of position.

Yes, he is supposed to be good. Actually, where he was drafted, he is probably expected to be more than just "good". What concerns me is that I thought his second game was worse than his first.

Here is the issue that is odd to me. From those I've learned from about the o-line on this board, much is about muscle memory, technique (hand and feet), and repetition. If there is any position Erving had the least work at, it was LG. I agree with those that were concerned about him playing several positions in TC and not really trying to master any ONE position.

If I recall correctly, I though Erving did well in strength at the combine, however, he sure didn't seem to show it the past couple of weeks.

How can Memphis call me a moron and not be suspended?

Am I allowed to call him a moron in return?

I know I was suspended before because he called me a liar and I pointed out the truth and said he was the liar. The reason 00 gave me was that I called someone a liar. Even though Memphis called me a liar first.

So, why do we have different rules for different people?

You really got suspended for calling someone a liar?

Yep, it was Memphis. He called me a liar first. I responded w/facts that contradicted what he said. I ended it w/it w/the word liar. I got suspended, Memphis didn't.

Shoot, there are even worse examples. But, those "people" like to point out all my suspensions. In fact, that is what Memphis was referring to when he suggested I was a moron. Of course, Memphis is still posting.

well that is a bummer reason to get suspended, imho. I love reading all the input you and the board put out...often I read things here that make me rethink how I interpret what I see of the organization and of events and even games. There is a lot of banter on here - and most looks like it is in good fun.

Keep it up and don't get suspended anymore!

cfrs15, Rams drafted Greg Robinson second in 2014 and struggles as much as Erving this year. If Browns want the OL and DL to be a position of strength, why is it you think they should draft another position? If there is a probability Mack leaves and again establishing a position of strength, why not make it a priority maintaining the position declared important?

It sucks Gilbert, so far, laid an egg. He is really needed. If he even plays close to Haden, a lot of defensive problems are solved. It made sense drafting him. CBs like receivers are a high risk pick.

It is easy saying Browns screwed up taking Gilbert over a receiver last year. If you look at what position is weakest and drafted a receiver, I wonder if fans chastise Farmer not attempting to get a shut down corner. I am not sure adding a receiver gives Browns more value to win games. Browns are putting up pretty good passing numbers and points with what they have now. Defense surrenders a lot of points. I bet Farmer and Pettine thought they get better out of Gilbert and pushed to anchor both lines in this draft.

Thanks Dawg, but I will probably get suspended for asking why Memphis did not get suspended for calling me a moron and for repeating the liar story.

J/C

I go back and forth on whether to keep the current regime or clean house. One thing is for sure. It seems like every other year I find myself quoting Dalton in Roadhouse: "It will get worse before it gets better."

This might be the one time it can't get any worse!

The position group was already a strength, they panicked because Mack can opt out.

I said a specific poster doesn't get suspended because he is not a moron. And you've been suspended countless times beyond using the word "liar". Stop misleading people. I know you don't ever deserve being suspended. Poor you.


I thought I was on ignore??

I have developed the opinion that the problem isn’t the bombing of the FO that kills a team but the bombing of the locker room that follows that seals the fate of those that come in with the idea that they are going to fix it by bombing it.

I also contend that continuity comes in many forms and as we have moved from one nightmare to the next we always THINK that the fix is around the corner and believe that bombing it will fix it, and it never does.

I think Text is the heart of the problem I really do but how much of that is a byproduct of Haslam? I mean you hear things but unless you’re a fly on the wall you have no way to know for certain. In that respect we are all firing from the hip.

But I digress I started out talking about bombing and didn’t finish that thought. We changed out players and failed to retain players without the main goal to making such moves in mind. What is that you asked to build, and that’s where we swing and miss every time. I even see fans talking re-build NOW. In other words bomb the locker room again, and that’s the problem and nobody seemingly recognizes that.

Look no farther then this past off season for examples. We nearly changed out the entire D Line and you have to ask WHY? And we have to conclude that, that was what caused a part of the regression. We didn’t build in other words and I am NOT saying don’t get rid of or change out bad players, but to change out players that are B grade players with players that are B grade players in reality sets you back because you don’t have that on field continuity, and in essence all you have done is insure regression #1 and #2 made change for changes sake, and that’s the mistake. You didn’t make the team better by these moves you just made them different and that’s the heart of the problem.

The words have to be build and not rebuild. Change out B grade players for A grade players NOT so you can make the roster over. We had some pretty good young talent and over the course of the past 2 off seasons we have replaced that young talent with older higher priced B grade talent when we should have been keeping the B grade guys and rolled them out as we had and could replace them with A grade talent I contend change for changes sake in the lock room is the most damaging by product of firings. The commitment for change has to be to build, not to make it over in the GM”s or HC’s image that’s what kills building and most of you IMO have totaling missed it.

Text has made the team over into his and I assume Haslam’s and Pet’s image instead of building on the young talent we did have here at one time it was blown up the process is set to continue this off season as well, and that is what needs to change.
Look at and think about the list of young players that have gone thru here in the past 2 seasons. Then think in terms of regression and continuity. I contend and believe with all my heart and soul that most of you are dead wrong about how or why it’s broken.

I don’t think most if any of you have thought this thru I really don’t. The reason I don’t think any of you have thought it thru is the same reason I thought we were headed in the direction we were this off season. While most of you are angry about what you believe to be regression on the part of the team and the staff if I go back a few short months ago you all were crying about how negative I was along with a few others. BTW my prediction for the season was 2-14 I was laughed at and ridiculed, and let’s be honest here most of you have gone from one extreme to the other, love em and now hate em.

In reality these guys went for the short cut fix instead of allowing the young talent we had to improve and actually build some continuity into the team we have been steadily blowing it up ever since Text and Pet arrived. And you struggle to recognize the true problem.

If I’m Haslam I fire Text and Pet is on a short leash. I STOP letting the young talent we have here leave and I begin to build. The problem is change for changes sake and whomever you replace Text with has to be committed to building not dismantling.

If you all want to truly know what is wrong then there is your answer Text has done a tremendous amount of damage during his short time here. He has taken this roster which WAS young and growing together and changed it out for older higher priced players and you can look for yourself it isn’t one bit better on any level and that’s why he must go. But his replacement MUST be committed to incremental improvement NOT wholesale change in the locker room that’s the mistake that was made that’s why we never get ahead.

JTHFacts

OK, I won't debate the pro's and con's of that, but who would perform the evaluating and hiring of a new GM? Haslam? You may perhaps be on the right track, but I believe before that, we need a John Elway-type (CEO or what ever title) to make these decisions. Oh, and you seem to be right-on to the W/L record...