DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Lets have a dialogue....

Hello everyone. Although it's been years since I've participated, I do however visit dawgtalkers regularly to catch up on the discussions regarding my beloved Browns. Unfortunately most of the feelings, analysis, and viewpoints about the play on the field, aren't too dissimilar as compared to years past when I did participate. Hopefully one day soon our Browns will turn this around.

It's good to see that some of the old timers are still around and active. They may remember why I left the board the first tome around.

I wanted to post again on dawgtalkers to have a dialogue on Islam. I would like to give you the real perspective of Islam, to help explain verses of the Quran (which at times are taken out of context), and try to explain the teachings of Prophet Mohammed (PBUH)..... especially in light of everything that has been going on lately.

I, of course, denounce every act committed by people that leads to the death of innocent people. Those who do such deeds in the name of Islam are clearly misguided, or are simply not Muslims. In fact, the religion of Islam also denounces such acts. The Quran mentions: Whoever kills a person unjustly, it is as though he has killed all of mankind.

I'd like to have a dialogue with those interested in having one. Not to justify why things are done, because I cannot imagine why people do such heinous acts against innocent people. But to explain for people to understand what Islam is all about. I want to help people understand my religion. That is my objective. I by no means have all the answers, and If we have any dialogues for which I don't have an answer for, I will do my best to find one. Just bear with me a little if there is a prolonged delay in my response... I've got a demanding job

May peace be with you (or, Assalamalaikum, as it is said in Arabic).

I'm pretty sure I remember you..good luck.

I'll do my best to stay civil with you on your discussion..studied Islam in a mosque for a while..Imam was very good to me even when I was little more then not understanding/believe text or its interpretation..

I hope you are not the one I'm thinking of because you seemed trollish in ur postings..If i am wrong my bad..but you do seem familiar.

Don't think it was me, whom you considered was trolling. I just checked and apparently the last time I posted on this board was 2007. Wow, didn't realize it was that long ago.

Looking forward to having some healthy discussions with you.

ok I thought about what I wrote..wasnt very kind or welcoming..so here I'll add some dialogue to your discussion...You guys believe Jesus is a true prophet..and i know how many prophets there was/are...

Buuut..Jesus said himself that he was the last and only true prophet and anyone after him would be a false prophet..and I'm supposed to not believe that because some murderer, 600 yrs later claimed to have a vision in the desert aaaannnddd no not Jesus but he is actually the true/and only prophet??

I have a feeling you will post a wall of passages and this thread wont be discussion but just a bunch of quran passages..I think I better bow out of this discussion. I dont think its going to go well.

good luck.

Welcome back, IDP. As always, there will be people willing to discuss and people who are not. We have a growing number of people who just want to make everything a political jab or only want to provoke other posters for attention. It's caused the discussions around here to suffer, and a lot of threads just dissolve into the same back and forth with the same people. Which is boring for me, but some people enjoy it, obviously.

I think you'll still be frustrated in your efforts, but we all face that in one way or another.

Anyway, glad to see you back again.

Inferring he is a troll right off the bat? What an odd thing to do.

Yes we believe that Jesus is a prophet, one who will return again towards the end of time. And I'm assuming whom you've referred to as a murderer, is Prophet Mohammed. In response to your post I'm not going to post passages from the Quran, but I can certainly share links to sites that would give you an understanding of the type of man who was. I recommend you watch with an open mind. Let me know.

ok so I was thinking of someone else.

either way bowing out because I dont think this will be positive guess I'll have to wait and see.

Did you not read what I said??? trollish..said I could be wrong..I'm not getting into a pissing match with you.

IDP I had an open mind and know his history very well..like I said good luck and I'll bow out of this one.

Right, so best to do a simple search of his posts instead of saying anything....he hasn't been around in many years. I did a quick search so I could remember.

Thanks Jules Hope you've been well.

Good for you..I didnt and recognized I was wrong..like I said I'm not getting into a pissing match with you..so bugger off would you..

sorry IDP I wont clutter up your post any longer.

I am, I hope you are as well. I don't get on here much anymore, but happened on here this morning!

Hahahaha.

I guess my first response would be that it will be as difficult for this thread to stay away from politics as any.

I hope this doesn't offend or confront anyone, but it seems that not only Islam, but many religions are experiencing an increase in fundamentalism.

Not saying fundamentalism is wrong, but it seems it offers an excuse or reason for some to express hatred. I think most people can tell the difference between religious conviction and religious hatred.

I was born and raised a Catholic and began separating from religion pretty early in life. I have often stated my belief that religion has been essential to forming societies, but we're at a time when fundamentalists world wide are attempting to force society to their values.

I would like to understand if radicals in the middle east are still mainly dedicated to removing Jews from Israel or if it has morphed into a power grab that's just using Islam as a recruiting tool.

I know most of the recruits are young idealists who want to feel that sacrificing their lives will mean they've made a "positive" change in the world. I don't see their desires any different from any other young person's. The problem with all young people is when someone can prey on their idealism for an evil purpose.

All people across the world are capable of exploiting others, but at this moment in time Al Qaeda and ISIS have been given a large benefit.

It seems the more that people identify a whole religion as radical the better that religion can recruit to achieve power.

I think the biggest problem with Islam is that they haven't gone through a civil war without some outside influences like Christianity has.

Remember how violent Christianity was?

Islam needs to go through the same thing, were people finally go "you know what, this is stupid". the problem is there are too many outside sources interfering with that.

IMO, of course.

The problem with Islam is that they view any outside interference as people joining the holy war against them.

the problem with western countries is that we haven't gotten that through their heads yet. So both sides keep making the same mistakes over and over.

and if anybody was wondering, yes, the United states is in a holy war. whether you think we are or not is irrelevant, THEY think we are, and that's all that matters.

one thing i will say about Islam that is confusing to me growing up around it is the refusal to change with the times.

however, then i see christian leaders do the same thing, and it's not surprising anymore.

one of the biggest fundamental differences people can't seem to realize is this: we have religious leaders in our own government that would love nothing more than to make this country a christian version of sharia law.

you see it in our politics everyday. they quote scriptures from the bible to justify trying to pass certain legislation ALL THE TIME.

thats the same thing as Sharia Law. the only different is our constitution protects us from a lot of it, but i wonder for how long. it's been recently passed under the guise of "Religious freedom" even though people who don't like to play stupid know EXACTLY what religion they are talking about.

in the middle east, Sharia Law is the government. only certain countries in the middle east have their government above it, but certain aspects of Sharia Law still applies.

However, just like christianity, there's a sect of muslims who go radical, called Jihadi's. this is the major problem, not the religion itself. they take scriptures from the Quran, play with the words, and use it to their cause.

same thing hardcore christians do on a daily basis.


why do i keep making the comparisons? because history is how you learn from these problems. except we keep ignoring and defending christian history, while condemning another religion for the same crap you guys pulled.

oh yea, here's my mandatory jab: Jules probably doesn't think my post is objective.

IDP, perhaps a good place to begin would be to, in your opinion, let us know where the greatest misconceptions lie regarding Islam.

I do believe there are many. However presented, there will be debate regarding them.

pots & kettles.
both made of the same stuff.


"What a piece of work is Man..."

I think your best option would be to convince others of your religion that it should be one of peace, especially if your people want to live here. America was founded with one of it's core beliefs being freedom of religion. It means different things to different people, but to me it basically means, 'I do my thing, you do your thing, and we try to respect each other'.

Christianity did go through it's problems, and has mostly chosen a path of peace. I would prefer to see Islam go through the same type of reform, which it probably is right now, with the peaceful ones winning out, peacefully. That can only come from within.

Hi IDP, nice to see you back.

I don't really know much about Islam other then what I hear and read which is usually the bad stuff. Myself I was born and raised Catholic although I have sort of disassociated myself with the church. I believe you don't have to go to church to be holy and have lived by the rule live and let live, as long as your beliefs don't infringe on my beliefs the everything is fine.

Rockdogg, in my opinion fundamentalism is a phrase that should have no meaning. Either you follow the religion or you don't. Someone who follows the religion as it has been laid out shouldn't be described as 'religious', 'fundamentalist', or an 'extremist'. In Islam it has been laid out very clearly what is acceptable and what is not. The terrorist activities being carried out go against the teachings of Islam. The ones who are carrying it out are not Muslims who are practicing their religion properly. Instead, they are clearly awful Muslims, or aren't Muslims at all.

As for the Middle East issue, this is something I would like to refrain from discussing (at least on this thread)... simply because the purpose of this thread wasn't to get into politics, rather it was to have a dialogue about Islam and to attempt to clear misconceptions that anyone might have.

Swish, Islam is a way of life. It teaches Muslims exactly how to live their life. It cannot change with time, because the teachings are still relevant today.

The biggest problem is people tend to associate Islam with the the acts of certain groups of people or certain countries. Rather, I encourage people to truly try to learn about the religion and what it teaches. For instance, their is a common feeling that women are oppressed in Islam. There is nothing further from the truth. The Quran and the teachings of the Prophet depict in detail the rights of women in Islam.

Cjrae, thanks for the question. The greatest misconception, in my opinion, is what I just alluded to in my previous post... associating the acts of certain groups of people or certain countries to the teachings of Islam. The biggest misconception of them all is justifying the killing of innocent people and saying that Islam teaches such heinous acts.

Erik, some of my best memories were when I lived in America during college. It was before 9/11, therefore, it was before any backlash that took place. There was a genuine interest among people at that time to know more about Islam... why I prayed, how do I fast during Ramadan, etc. I wish that time would return, but I know it's probably very difficult with the non-stop violence these days and the media doing everything they can to provoke and instigate anger.

The fact is that far far less than 1% of the global Muslim population are undertaking such heinous acts, and again, I use the phrase "Muslim" to describe them very loosely, simply because if they are partaking in acts which go against the teachings of the religion, then in my opinion they are not Muslims. But only God can judge that.

As for educating people on teachings of peace, I did a simple google search and found a nice article:

http://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/6-quran-quotes-teach-love-tolerance-freedom-religion/

Islam according to the Quran teaches love and compassion for every human being, no matter their religion, says author Adnan Oktar whose television show is watched by millions in Turkey and the Arab world. He believes the problem for the majority of Muslims is that some groups are following traditions and superstitions invented centuries after the Quran was first sent and the Prophet lived, and these have gotten more radical over time.

After the attacks of September 11, 2001, Oktar published a book, Islam Denounces Terrorism. He argues that violent and intolerant beliefs about Islam go against the teachings of the Quran. Here, he presents six quotes that support his claim.

1) Peace is the cornerstone

The word “Islam” is derived from the word meaning “peace” in Arabic. Islam is a religion revealed to mankind with the intention of presenting a peaceful life where the infinite compassion and mercy of God manifests on earth. God calls all people to live by the moral values He sets so that compassion, mercy, peace and love can be experienced all over the world.

“O You who believe! Enter absolutely into peace (Islam). Do not follow in the footsteps of satan. He is an outright enemy to you.” (Holy Quran: 2, 208)

In the verse above, Islam intrinsically calls for peace and fosters a life in absolute sincerity and honesty before God. Therefore it is vitally important for an individual to believe in God with his own will and aspiration, and observe God’s commands and advice through personal conscientious contentment.

2) No one should be forced to believe in Islam

“There is no compulsion where the religion is concerned.” (Holy Quran: 2/ 256)

As stated in the verse, no one can be compelled to live by Islamic morals. Conveying the existence of God and the morals of the Qur’an to other people is a duty for believers, but they call people to the path of God with kindness and love and they never force them. It is only God Who guides people to the right way. This is related in the following verse:

“You cannot guide those you would like to but God guides those He wills. He has best knowledge of the guided.” (Holy Quran/28: 56)

3) Freedom of thought and religion are paramount

The Quran provides an environment where people can fully enjoy freedom of thought and freedom of religion and allows people to live by the faith and values they believe in. According to Islam, everyone has the right to live freely by his beliefs, whatever they may be. Anyone who wants to support a church, a synagogue or a mosque must be free to do so. In this sense, freedom of religion, or freedom of belief, is one of the basic tenets of Islam. There is always freedom of religion wherever the moral values of the Qur’an prevail.

That is why Muslims also treat Jews and Christians, described in the Qur’an as “the People of the Book,” with great justice, love and compassion. God says in the Qur’an:

“God does not forbid you from being good to those who have not fought you in the religion or driven you from your homes, or from being just towards them. God loves those who are just.” (Surat al-Mumtahana, 8)

4) Compete with each other in doing good

Muslims who share these basic values believe in the need to act together with Christians and Jews. They therefore strive to eliminate prejudices stemming from provocations by unbelievers and fanatics. Jews, Christians and Muslims should strive together to spread moral virtues across the world.

God explicitly states that the existence of people from different faiths and opinions is something that we have to acknowledge and welcome heartily, for this is how He created and predestined humankind in this world:

“We have appointed a law and a practice for every one of you. Had God willed, He would have made you a single community, but He wanted to test you regarding what has come to you. So compete with each other in doing good. Every one of you will return to God and He will inform you regarding the things about which you differed.” (Surat al-Ma’ida, 48)

In acknowledgment of this fact, Muslims have an inner love and compassion for people of all faiths, races and nations, for they consider them as the manifestations of God in this world and treat them with an heartfelt respect and love. This is the very basis of communities administered by Islamic morality.

The values of the Qur’an hold a Muslim responsible for treating all people, whether Muslim or non-Muslim, kindly and justly, protecting the needy and the innocent and “preventing the dissemination of mischief”. Mischief comprises all forms of anarchy and terror that remove security, comfort and peace.

“God does not love corruption”. (Surat al-Baqara, 205)

Hi dawg66, good to see you too my friend.

My only advice and request is to try to make an effort to learn about the religion if you have any preconceived notions which you inherited from non-reliable sources (i.e.: the Media... especially Fox News).

I don't blame you for wishing to keep politics out of this. However, it would seem very obvious that the hundreds of thousands of innocent lives caused in multiple wars by America has been a huge recruiting tool for groups such as ISIS and Al Qaeda. It's hard to imagine that the anger by innocent Iraqi families whose relatives, as innocent citizens of Iraq who were killed by American war planes, is not some of the strongest tools available to these groups.

I agree with you that their actions are horrible and wrong, yet it's easy to see why such strong motivation exists.

This.

Same thing happening in Syria now. A month after Brit pm Cameron blasted the Russians for bombing and probably creating more terrorists, he passed a bill to do the same a couple of days ago. Hasn't worked yet but we are still doing it. Of course there is evidence that the IS attackers of Paris passed through Greece as "refugees" so expect more and more Paris type events.
The mis representation of Islam just adds to the recruitment of radicalised extremists. Whole thing is a hot mess.

Welcome back IDP ("International Dawg Pound" right?)

Thanks for the insight.

Can you please explain what it is in the teachings of Islam and possibly the Quran that some radicalized Islamic extremists believe that infidels need to be eradicated. What it is in the teachings that may cause this "misinterpretation" as such?

As a Christian this has me very curious.

I read your post. It seems you know all the 'peace, love, and good happiness stuff' part of the Koran. How is it being 'perverted', as some are arguing. We all know the horrible stuff that can be found in Leviticus, so where are those Islamic passages?

this will probably sound worse than intended...

Are there not parts of the Koran that teach either conversion to Islam or death to those not of the Islamic faith?

And if so how does that line up with he parts of the Koran that talk of peace and understanding? Which takes precedent and how / why is that determined?

This is not to imply that other religions have not taken the same thoughts to heart...Certainly in the old testament one can make the argument that, that God was one of death to non believers, but that is superseded by the teaching of Jesus and his ultimate sacrifice, ( at least to a Christian).

So what is the bottom line of Islam? Do the later writing of the Prophet hold more weight than the earlier ones, if they are diametrically opposed?

I mean there are what 1.5 Billion that follow Islam and only a small % are so radicalized...so it seems. what teachings push that radicalization?

And Swish... you comment about a civil war is intriguing... isn't the Sunni ... Shi'ite conflict such a war?

I am not sure I understand the hatred between the two.

I agree 'fundamentalist" is just another label, but it has come to describe the difference between someone who follows the religion as it has been laid out and those who follow their religion's doctrine in a very basic, tribal, literal and fundamental way.

Whether we call them fundamentalists or not they're using what ever religion they follow to control others rather than accepting the values of the country they've chosen to live in.

Ok Ive thought about this..I have some questions.

1. The word islam in Arabic, means submission or surrender... however... it was derived from the root word salam spelling?. From this root word...can also derive the words peace and safety.

Did you leave out submission or surrender on purpose?? or did peace look better then submission? just asking?

also I thought the cornerstone of islam is-Lá iláha illalláh spelling?

2. No one should be forced to believe in Islam...then can you explain this please?
Sahih Muslim (1:33)
Sahih Muslim (19:4294)
Bukhari (60:80)

And other verses such as these...sounds like force to me sorry if I misspelled or quoted incorrectly though I'm 99% sure I didn't.

3.Sahih Muslim 31:5917 doesnt sound like freedom of religion.

Do you believe in Jizya?

I have more questions but these came to the top of my head..if I spelled the verses wrong I'm sorry...but would like answers to these if you would.

I'll readily admit I'm a Kafir but would like some answers to my questions for you.

Maybe these are my misconceptions.

also if you ever see a pic of me in the tattoo thread if they decide to post pics...I have a Jinn so try not to get freaked out

If I miss your response..I'll get to it.

One other thing I'm sure youre well versed in your religion and I'm not trying to discredit you in anyway..These are honest questions that bubbled to the top of this old mans brain.

I find those who rant against Fundamentalism are those who can not accept the Truth of what God has told us. They wish to white wash that truth and turn it to what they are willing to accept. When confronted with that truth they are quick to label the messenger as a Fundamentalist.

Truth doesn't choose sides, only we do.

IDP, I'm going to be out of commission for most of the day..if you respond to my questions..I'll get back to you tomorrow if I can.

Pit, unfortunately that could be the case. But I'll stay away from that because it involves politics and I want to stay away from it, at least on this thread.

Hey Riddler. How's it going? Yes, 'International Dawg Pound' from the old boards.

Holy crap, IDP... how's it going man?

Good to see ya.

I believe it is verses taken out of context by those who wish to do harm and then using that to brainwash weak and ignorant people, or use it to recruit those who have unfortunately been inflicted by oppression and / or inflicted by suffering caused by no fault of their own (i.e.: vulnerable people who feel they have nothing to lose).

thanks Purp. Good to see you too my fiend. Great work as usual in keeping the board up and running.