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BigWillie: I was thinking the same things when I read about Shaffer working with the 1s. I understand RAC's ways with working rookies in and not just giving the job to anybody, but in the case of the o-line, where we have several new guys rotating in this year, this unit desperately needs to develop cohesion and get on the same page with this new offense by game one. I really don't see how RAC is allowing for that to happen the longer he keeps Shaffer at LT.
We drafted Joe to play LT, so put him there. Shaffer needs to understand that he is NOT our starting LT anymore. I'm sure he's smart enough to figure that out. If I were him, this whole idea of 'humoring' him by letting him fight for his job would be insulting to me. Moreso than just outright replacing me. If you plan to have me move to another position, give me a fighting chance by having me work in there. Don't set me up to fail with JT waiting in the wings and then let me lose out on another position battle because another guy is working with the 1s over there.
Is it just me or is RAC really hard-headed sometimes, when it's so clear what should be done? Give this line a chance and get the best players out there together NOW. Stop playing games Romeo! JMHO.
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Is it just me or is RAC really hard-headed sometimes,
No, it's not just you. I think Romeo's seeming reluctance in playing young players has become a source of irritation for Savage.
I don't think Romeo has the final say on who plays on offense anymore. I have a feeling Chud and Savage make that call. At the least they have a very heavy pull on the matter.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I have a feeling Chud and Savage make that call.
I was thinking this too. I hope we're right. But for now, it doesn't look that way. Besides, no matter what kinda pull Chud & Savage have, it is in everyone's best interest to not make RAC look like a lame-duck coach. So they must tread lightly, if at all.
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He's not playing games or being hard headed or "humoring" Shaffer ... and hes doing the RIGHT THING .... for a BUNCH OF REASONS .....
u just dont hand rookies starting jobs ... PERIOD ... they need to EARN THEM .... and u cant earn them in SHORTS without contact ....
and did i miss sumptin or did he sign a contract when i wasn't looking??? what if he HOLDS OUT???
and is there a possibiblity that at some point he will get reps with an OL that isnt the #`1 but could look like the one we all want???
and RAC is staying true to his word .. witch is HUGE ...
he should not and RIGHTFULLY SO will not be given the job till he earns it ...
dont worry guys ... if he gets signed within the first 7 - 10 days of camp he will be our starter against Pit and that is all THAT MATTERS ....as far as working together and continuity these OTA's mean VERY VERY LITTLE in the grand scheme of things .. PLENTY OF REAL TIME ONCE JULY GETS HERE FOR THAT ....
this is barely a drop in the bucket and your making it sound like its the end of the world ....
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I have heard that Shaffer has been told he is the starting LT. Now, they may just be blowing smoke up his butt, but apparently, that is the word.
This kinda bothers me. I think the best thing to do is just put Joe in there and start working Shaffer on the right side. If Joe bombs out, they can move Shaffer back. But, I just think it would take some time for KS to learn how to play on the right side.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
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I wonder how the discussion might have gone... Chud: "Ok, Thomas at left tac..." Romeo: "no, he's a rookie, the rookie won't start til week 13" Chud: "Why? He's already better than Shaffer." Romeo: "I don't like rookies, if they make a mistake, it's a bad thing, if they succeed, it's a good thing." Chud: "But..." Romeo: "No rookies."  (Sidenote: I know Jackson and Wimbley started last year, but offensively it seems to be different with Romeo, and yes, this is all in fun.)
Last edited by Ammo; 05/24/07 09:08 AM.
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LOL!
Romeo: Oh, you said 'cookies'. Well, in that case.....
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if opie decides who are LT is or any position player for that matter .... WERE $CREWED .... hes the gm not a coach ....that would be no better than randy telling him who to pick ... u guys are nuts .... u have no clue if u think opie is going to dictate to rac who starts anywhere ... cause Opie ain't that STUPID .... Vers .. your nuts to .... no way should Joe just be handed the job .. we all know INCLUDING SHAFF he will eventually earn it but he should EARN IT ,,,, they can say what they want .... but shaff can't possibly be stupid enough to think hes going to hold joe off ,,,, he can't be ... and whos to say he won't be getting reps at RT real soon .... u guys are gettingm way ahead of yourselves based on 1 or 2 practices in shorts in may ... 
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Have you guys thought about how there are OTHER factors involved....if a coach jus hands rookies starting jobs the vets are NOT going to like it...it's not like shaffer sucks so bad that he needs to be cut off the team...he is the coach he has to think about everyone not just one thing or one person...
And like Diam said he is doing the right thing...if he claims that people need to EARN the starting job then i guess he better do the same with rookies not jus vets...
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I have to agree, sitting rookies until they earn their keep is the ONLY way to run a football team.
What does that say to veterans? "Sorry if we draft someone at your position, you're out."
I doubt many vets would want to come here if that was the case.
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I agree. If he doesn't start at LT, I will wonder if he is all that good.
LOL...........I made a prediction the other day, before this story came out, that you would be making comments such as these. And I can't wait to hear what you have to say the first time he gives up a sack. 
Thanks for not letting me down. 
LMAO...No doubt...Way 2 go Peen...
Man this gives me one of those "Thingy's"...Talkin' about putting a guy at Left Tackle and forget about him just isn't the norm in Cleveland...
I LUV IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hopefully Shaffer can get comfy at RT and Tucker at RG...McKinney as depth with Sowells...Keep eyes on Sowells at RG folks...If he does what needs to be done Tucker may just hit the streets...
Go Browns!!!
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To be honest, I don't expect him to struggle all that much...sure...some.....but blocking is blocking. I don't think the transition is that hard. You get in the way of the other player and don't allow him to make the play.
I can see some missed assignments and stuff like that, but once he is clear on who he is blocking, and what play we are running, I expect to see a wall that wins way more than he loses..and we probably will.
I agree. I will expect more mental mistakes than physical mistakes... sure he is going to get schooled from time to time but sometimes I think people forget, the DE lining up opposite him gets paid a lot of money too....
yebat' Putin
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Look, you guys are right (Wow, how many times has that ever been said on here?). I completely understand why RAC sits rookies and makes them earn their spot. I am a football coach and I know that that is the only way to run a team and not have a mutiny on your hands. However, in this case, where the team (or RAC) is in a "win now" situation, it just seems like it would be in the best interest of the team for the o-line to get together and gel as quickly as possible. Shaffer knows he's not the long-term answer at LT. Why pretend otherwise? Like I said before, I think it would be a slap in the face to go through the motions of the position knowing that everyone else knows that I'm not the guy in the long run. Let me work where you eventually want me to be so I can get better there and have a chance to play SOMEWHERE. Don't make me fight for a job you don't intend for me to keep. JMHO.
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did u think of it this way? It's a new O line coach...a new O coach...the players on the line are already trying to adjust to whats being thrown at them...sure it's just o line and it's not the QB spot...but they still have to get use to the new system/calls and the lingo....throwing a rookie into that mess is not a great idea...it will only hurt the growth of the line overall....once the line has some sort of stability it will be a lot easier to throw a rookie in there...so that in this case steinbach at LG can help out the rookie when he needs without blowing his assignments
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We drafted Joe to play LT, so put him there. Shaffer needs to understand that he is NOT our starting LT anymore. I'm sure he's smart enough to figure that out. If I were him, this whole idea of 'humoring' him by letting him fight for his job would be insulting to me.
We drafted Quinn to play QB, but putting him there right now is a bad move.
Outside of QB, IMHO left tackle is the toughest position to make the transition to when going from college to the NFL. Granted, Thomas is the left tackle of the future, but it's not at all beyond reason that Shaffer has a leg up on him right now. It's easy to jump to the conclusion that it's now Thomas' job no matter what happens, but I don't see that to be the case. As poor a HC as I believe RAC to be, he isn't dumb enough to simply hand starting jobs to players that aren't ready. Remember, as good a prospect as Thomas is, he's never taken a snap in the NFL, and has never seen the things that Necktie has seen (or roped  ). That makes Necktie the logical choice to start out at left tackle.
Now I would also mention that if we are in fact haggling with some teams over trade scenarios for Necktie, then starting him at LT right now does nothing but help our position. I wouldn't put it beyond Savage and/or RAC to go that route, and in fact I think they'd be stOOpid if they did something other than that.
Rushing Thomas along right now doesn't really do anything for anyone, just as rushing Quinn along now doesn't accomplish anything. Thomas is a fantastic prospect, better than Brick was last year (I always said Brick was overrated. Damned shame it took the media this long to realize it) but he's still just a prospect.
It'll be his job soon enough.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I agree with most of this reasoning, however, there is one factor not mentioned to date.
Thomas isn't signed yet!!!!!! RAC and the guy before him, what was his name???? don't like rookies to start with, but they really don't like holdouts.
The kid is an unsigned rookie. When he's signed and on board then start making the adjustments. Same with that other first rounder.
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that was already mentioned few posts ago but sure that too
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Yeah,let's teach shaffer TWICE! Once at two different positions. That oughtta help out. Learning a new system at ONE position is hard enough. So let's force Shaffer to learn a "new system" at TWO different positions! That'll help continuity huh? 
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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actually i believe he won't be on the team...he will be traded next year...and this year if he doesn't play LT he will be benched for this year.... PS- it was a mom joke....were u ever in the 8th grade?  let it go man...let it go...
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actually i believe he won't be on the team...he will be traded next year...and this year if he doesn't play LT he will be benched for this year....
And what would benching him do to his trade value? No,if we're not "trading him this off-season" we should play him. Or do you propose we just sit him when he can contribute to our team and increase his trade value next year?
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PS- it was a mom joke....were u ever in the 8th grade? let it go man...let it go...
You're the one who keeps bringing it up. I plan to wait untill "the time is right". Why,are you in the 8th grade? That would be the only legitimate excuse.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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"I hope the Shaffer at LT crap is over by the end of OTs."
I know I was sort of thinking the same way...I want him learning the snap counts and the familiarity of which Steinbach spoke of.
Then I sort of came down to earth and figured....Hey, maybe he should actually sign a contract and become a Brown before we annoint him the starter...lol
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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i see you are still POed about my comment so i won't reply to you....have a good day sir...
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BrownBuck: You're right (wow, I'm saying that a lot) but learning a new offense and new system is even more reason to get JT in there. I could see if it was a system that we have been using for 5 years and Shaffer was the veteran who knew the system to a T. But it's all new for everyone. So in that case, get the guy who will be there in the long run reps with the first team and have the first team learn the new system together cuz' they will be the ones who will use it over the long haul.
Toad: Good point about the trade value for 'necktie'. However, I don't know if upping one player's trade value is worth the risk of not developing cohesion along the one area of our team that has desperately needed it the most over the last 7 years. And I know that LT is almost as important and as difficult as the QB position is to learn and grow. But they are not the same at all. It's really not apples to apples there.
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nrtu
Just because a guy takes reps with "The First Team" in OTA's does not mean JT or KS is being given the starting job. Man...people sure can get going over nothing.
That said, it is my opinion that we should be giving JT at least as many reps as KS is getting at LT.
The bottom line is this:
JT is likely going to be better than KS at LT. (Wow! What a stretch, eh?)
If KS wins the RT job, then we are better off than last year. If KS sits on the bench, his 2007 cap hit is relatively small and we have depth. If we trade him, the cap hit is significant and we lose depth.
If Tuck wins the RG job, then we are better off than last year...with Sowells and McKinney as depth. (That "depth" very well could be better than last year's "starters"...think about that.)
So...what's bad about that so far?
Lastly, I do not understand when Browns fans bash one another or when Browns fans post that player X "sucks", "is a stiff", 'is a jerk", etc.
I'm not trying to pull a Rodney King here, but good Lord...before the internet we could not get so much info so easily, quickly, and basically for free.
Browns fans were frat brothers/sisters who never insulted or put down one another for their opinion and every Browns player was thought of as a brother...at least as long as they were Browns.
I don't agree with every post I read, but blasting a fellow Browns fan for their opinion or a current Browns player is not something I expect of my fellow Browns fan.
Sorry about the rant.
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whatever the case the fact remains the guy has yet to sign the dotted line!!! he isn't officially a brown yet....so REALX people
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Vers .. your nuts to .... no way should Joe just be handed the job .. we all know INCLUDING SHAFF he will eventually earn it but he should EARN IT ,,
Yeah, I'm nuts, but that is besides the point. *L*
Look.........you totally missed my point. Joe is going to beat out Shaffer anyway. That isn't my concern. My concern is that we are paying Shaffer big dollars and he needs to play somewhere if he isn't traded.
Furthermore, the guy is not technically sound and he is going to need all the reps we can give him at either RT or RG. And you are missing the boat if you think practicing in shorts isn't important. This is the time of year you work on your technical skills. You work on sliding, zone protection, area blocking and getting the snap count down. These things are huge, much more important that most of you guys think. And Shaffer is NOT a good technician as it is.
If Shaffer is going to move to the right side, he needs these reps over there. It is very important to get in sync w/your fellow line mates. The success of zone/area blocking should be mastered before you begin contact.
It's important, bro. The only thing that throws a wrench into my line of thinking is if the Browns don't believe he is good enough to contribute anywhere. We'll see.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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ya ... that and the SMALL DETAIL that joe isnt SIGNED YET all u menZas wanna gloss over ... i never said it wasnt important bro ... its MAY ..... he can't work on TECHNIQUE at LT???? SLIDING IS SLIDING ... SNAP COUNTS ARE SNAP COUNTS ... are somethings different?? YES ... is it dire he be there now?? NO WAY ... PIT .. what do u suggest we do if Joe holds out for two or three weeks???? hmmmmm .. if shaff has no experience at LT then we dont have one??? and if joe is signed and beats him out are we not going to HAVE A BACK UP for him gents???? ya ... i'm guessing maybe SHAFF NEEDS TO LEARN TWO POSITIONS NO MATTER WHAT ..... U guys are MAKING A MOUNTAIN OUT OF A MOLE HILL ... we will have LOTS OF MOVING AND INTERCHANGEABLE PARTS between now and August with lots of DIFFERENT COMBOS getting used to each other ... U guys are so excited for the future that common sense is alluding U .... we have MUCH TO WORK ON BETWEEN NOW AND SEPT 1. ... and getting Shaff and Joe reps at LT is just one of them ... dotn worry guys .. Shaff will get time at RT .. and i am 100% SURE he is learning RT as well as LT ... and Vers ... i'm with U bro ... i am not sure Shaff can play anywhere ... last year when we signed him I hoped along with U, tab and Toad and a few others he could play RT or Gaurd .. well he's not a gaurd at all .. he has ZERO POWER .. DE's push him around ... tackles would treat him like a rag doll .. and i have my doubts about him being even an avg. RT ... he may have to do for now ... MAYBE .... depends on how Sowell/mcKinnie do at Gaurd and how Tuck is .. we'll see .. RELAX FELLAS we have lots to do .. and RAC is 100% CORRECT in what he is doing ... if u guys think they have just told shaff "no worries mate, your our LT and there is no thoughts of moving you to RT so dont worry about it ... your NUTS MY FRIENDS .. 
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My concern is that we are paying Shaffer big dollars and he needs to play somewhere if he isn't traded.
I don't understand why that is a concern??
If he fits into out cap picture, it doesn't matter what he makes.
Not to say that at some point it won't be a concern, but at this juncture I don't see the problem.
Maybe you don't like what he makes, but that doesn't make it a problem.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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i never said it wasnt important bro ... its MAY ..... he can't work on TECHNIQUE atLT???? SLIDING IS SLIDING ... SNAP COUNTS ARE SNAP COUNTS ... are somethings different?? YES ... is it dire he be there now?? NO WAY ...
You pretty much answerred your own question. Man,you are gettin' good!
Just exchange RT where I highlighted LT in bold,and there's your answer. Shaffer can learn all the snap counts and slides practicing at the RT position same as he can LT.
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PIT .. what do u suggest we do if Joe holds out for two or three weeks???? hmmmmm .. if shaff has no experience at LT then we dont have one??? and if joe is signed and beats him out are we not going to HAVE A BACK UP for him gents????
Well in case you missed it,which if you did,you didn't miss much,Shaffer HAS been playing LT. So you just slide him back over there for a few games. If your theory of "a slide is a slide and a snap count is a snap count" holds true,then it's a two way street my friend.
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ya ... i'm guessing maybe SHAFF NEEDS TO LEARN TWO POSITIONS NO MATTER WHAT .....
Yeah,but you wanna make it three!
LT,RT,RG.
It's really NOT that big of a deal to me.I think the quicker the better,but I'm not as judgemental about it as you might think. I am looking forward to it,that I'll admit. But IMO,it's going to happen sooner than later anyway. But yes,I'd like to see it sooner. He and Steinbach getting their scheme down together is critical in the "short haul". I think the more familiarity there is lining up together,the more it will pay dividends this season. I want to see JT get over the learning curve before BQ has to. Just looking out for your boy.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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No one is making a mountain out of this, Diam. We are simply saying that it would behoove the Browns to get KS acclimated to the right side as soon as possible. There is no sense of urgency or panic in my voice. I simply think it would be the most productive move the Browns could make. Now...........I gotta correct you on something. It ain't as simple as just sliding. The Browns will most certainly employ at least some zone and area blocking schemes this year. What a tackle does on the left side is completely different than what the RT does. There is a strong side, typically the right.......and the footwork,gap responsibilities, and cohesion w/your guard plus the TE, are way different. Like I said before, Shaffer is known for not being very technical. He needs the reps, that is.....if he is ever going to play there. And if Joe holds out or sucks ass, I think KS could make the move back to LT much more easily than he can learn how to play RT or RG. Like I said before and you confirmed......perhaps he isn't in their plans. I do think it would be smart to at least take a look, though. But, that just me making a mountain out of a molehill.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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