DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Is it time for False Start Thomas to go?

I thought that originally, but man, this team has a ton of holes. This team lacks difference makers. When we dump Kruger and D. Bryant this off-season, we will have even more problems up front on defense.

We need, for starters, help at QB,(unless, as you say, we magically resolve that position after so many failures) RB, TE beside/behind Barnidge, WR, at least 1 OL position if Mack leaves, DE, OLB, and CB. Add Safety to that list if Gipson leaves as a free agent.

I feel pretty good about our P and PK though, and our long snapper is pretty good.

I just don't see this team turning around in a couple of years. Most great teams have been built through the draft. We are years away from filling up this team with quality draft picks.

With the way we draft, we will NEVER be a contender... BUT, if we can draft well over the next 2 to 3 years and make some solid, smart acquisitions in free agency, there is little reason we cannot completely turn this thing around.

We're getting a new defensive coordinator next year, so we could be a contender next season.

We're getting a new everything next year. We could be good if the coach is only average.

And we'll have a chance at a real QB.

You don't get rid of him at all. You draft his replacement and develop him for that 3-4 years or whenever until Joe retires.

That blockbuster deal you mentioned, hardly do they ever become the blockbuster they seem to be at first. It would be awful to get rid of your best, most consistent player for a pig in a poke.

Since when has the FO drafted with that theory in mind? They had their chance to do just that last draft.

I probably should have started a different thread. I don't agree with it, I posted in this thread because I'm concerned. Maybe I worry about this too much, but it's been on my mind for quite some time.

Battles in the trenches are important, and games won inside of a game are huge, and Thomas wins his. I'm just hoping there's no drop off in production at his position once he decides to hang it up.

j/c

Orlando Pace was one of the greatest LT's I saw play. He played for 13 years and was highly sought after by NFL teams right up to the time he retired.

Even discussing the idea of the Browns trading JT is nothing but silly talk.

It would be hard to stomach letting Joe go for less than 2 first rounders and 2 2nd rounders from a team at least in the top 15.

And remember, on here, there were urgent cries for several years begging to get Pace in a Browns uniform.

And now there are posters willing to get rid of Joe. ?????

Sorry fellas but in a business sense it would be best to trade him for the best deal out available and hope you can bring in his replacement for the next 10 years. Joe is 31 and I do not think he plays past 35. Joe is a great player, HOF quality we will see but I am not going to debate that now. When he hangs it up in a couple of years and we get nothing for him how is that going to help our team?

There are some players that deserve to be treated like humans and not commodities, JT is one of those players. He signed long term we should keep him long term. jmho

It appears you have no clue just how difficult is to "replace" a LT of the caliber that JT is. So I'll overlook your comment.

IF it were possible... easier to replace some others though.

This franchise is in the bottom in the NFL as far as talent goes.
you have explore every possibility in order to secure talent and get better as a team.
the Browns record since JT's rookie year is 36 88. take away the 10 win season and
the Browns record 26 and 82.
I don't buy this theory that you can't find a LT. thats baloney.
The Pittsburgh Steelers current LT was undrafted.
A franchise QB is much more important to a teams long term success than a franchise LT.
who is the LT for the Patriots?
If you can get a 1st RD pick for JT you better look into it.
Yeah JT is a elite LT. but in the big picture he rarely impacts the game. He shuts his man down.
Okay great.
but to think "oh's he's so untouchable" is a bit silly to think.
he's a played at a high level all his career.
but he's not untouchable.
Brady Newton Rothlisberger Rodgers are players you don't trade.
The Browns would still be 36 and 88 if they never drafted him.

Are you overlooking my comment or afraid to respond. If he is so great why are we in the bottom of the league every year in rushing? Joe T. has been a great LT for us, but is he in the same category as Orlando Pace, and some of the all time great idk. What I do know is that I just care about wins and losses. And personally i am tired of the losses and think we need to take a different approach because what we are doing is resulting in the same old thing and I am sick and tired of being the whooping boy on the block.

Let me ask you this. Let's say we get a top 10 pick for JT. Do you trust that we would get a player the caliper of JT with that pick?

And yes, JT is in the elite category of LT's.

That's my problem with your line of thought.

I haven't seen anything to indicate that we can draft a better player than JT with a top 10 pick. Just look at the top 10 picks we've taken since JT that are as good or better than he is at their position?

Another huge point to mention.... NOTHING is more critical in the development and health of a young QB than having his blind side protected. The most serious injuries come from hits you don't see coming.

Whether it be Manziel or a draft pick to be named at a later date, no other player can help protect him from serious injury and allow him to progress more than a great LT.

I know that WR's, RB's and QB's get a lot of love. And yes that's where most of the points are scored, but games are won and lost in the trenches. Same as it ever was.

Just another quick comment. I'm tired of the losing too. However, letting your best players go isn't the answer. Those are the core of what little talent you do have. Letting them walk weakens your team, not strengthens it.

I agree we must build up the talent. But getting rid of an elite LT does nothing at accomplish that.

Getting rid of average talent that is going into 2nd year in system to bring in average talent is stupid. Just sets the players back a year.....

I agree with you. BTTB has talked about this a lot and I agree with him. Continuity on the field has huge advantages. That's far too often overlooked. I believe we have like 16 players left on the roster since Farmer took over.

And we wonder why they look disorganized?

Define "best players?" If your records is no better than six wins, do you have players worth keeping? We are not talking about having one losing season here.
Players Browns let walk weren't pro bowlers.

We drafted Joe in 2007. There has not been an equal LT drafted by anyone since.

Guys like him are that hard to find. If we got rid of him we could spend the next 8 years trying to find an adequate replacement for him.

Although he doesn't score points from his position, the LT is the second most important position behind QB. That's why a good one typically gets paid so much. That's a spot you don't want to mess with. Money wise he's a deal at this stage.

It's true we need offensive play makers. But trading our best player for the chance at a play maker position only hurts that play maker's position, in the short run and maybe much longer.

JT is. That's the point here.

But yes, if you even have capable players, letting those players grow within the system is better than letting them go and replacing them with equal or lesser players as we've seen. Most great teams use serviceable players at many positions.

I'm not sure if Orlando Pace, since we're comparing them already, won a game for the Rams. But he certainly never gave them a reason to lose a game. Joe Thomas might have never won us a game, but without him we'll probably lose a lot more.

I get what your saying, but we aren't talking about the norm here. We are talking about a franchise who plays constantly below par. People keep saying it's the coach. Fans state two years is enough for a coach to turn things around. Yet, a player in the league for three or more years needs more time to develop. Sounds like a double standard.

Pit it's like talking football with soccer fans isn't it

Teams do it all the time. Why not us? Make some good selections in the draft, bring in a new staff...I think we have some talent in place.

There's not many more to lose.

You're smart enough to know that while BTTB thinks he uncovered the holy grail, his focus is off. To truly solve a problem, you have to trace it to its root cause and eliminate that. Roster turnover is a function of HC/FO turnover. Every new regime does the same thing. This isn't some new revelation that BTTB just came up with and all the other fans "over react" and don't have the "patients" to see it. This is his own clever way of repackaging his disdain for Farmer for letting go of Hoyer and trying to sound smart.

Two things, focus on the root cause of the problem and also understand that it's a total regime that has made these changes, not just Farmer. Pettine wanted Gilbert, Whitner, and Dansby. His GM obliged. Pettine wanted more leadership on the team amongst the players.

On a side note, people's heads are going to explode when Pettine gets fired and Farmer is retained. I'm not saying I agree with that in any way, shape, or form. Just a feeling I have from what I've read. I suspect if Manziel plays well, Pettine is gone, and Farmer gets to hire his own coach. If Manziel plays poorly, they're both gone and we start over. Haslam is super sensitive to the criticism of having an itchy trigger finger. He will try to salvage some part of this. And based on Pettine's comments over the last week, he's not in Haslam's inner circle. Farmer appears to be, at least more than Pettine is.

Cal, you are way way smarter than this.

You Rish are a profoundly ignorant man.

Maybe so, but I have lots of "patients", and I'm not even a doctor!

Actually I don't believe that anyone expected Pettine to "turn things around". What I believe they expected was to see improvements in some basic things. Clock management, discipline, tackling. Those things may not mean more wins, but it would show basic progress. There's been zero progress. Same goes for players. You should see some progress. Like Skrine. Oh that's right, he's gone.

Secondly, the players they brought in aren't improvements. They don't seem to fit the scheme any more than the players they let go. Those are the points I think people are troubled with.

I don't believe that Haslam is any more impressed with the talent than he is the coaching. If he picks one over the other, Haslam is lost.

And I do believe BTTB does have a point. Now if the players they brought in suddenly fit the schemes better than the players they let go this year, I may not see it the same way he does. But that's not how it is. They changed bodies, paid older players more and the product got worse if anything. Seems to me giving the players we had another year in the system would have been a smarter investment to me.

Yep. We're constantly changing systems, then wonder why our players play like trash.

At the same time, if the system itself is horrible, it needs to be changed.

Nick Foles would agree with you. He went from a bad system and was decent, to a horrible system and is now terrible.

Wait, since when is Kelly's system terrible? Wasn't it the system that earned them a top five offensive ranking in 2013 and 2014 when their QBs were Foles, Sanchez, and Vick?