DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum More on Manziel

From Schefter and Mortensen:



http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/143351...hole-league-nfl

A very interesting article; lots to absorb. However, should Manziel stud out and the Browns still want to dump him, I'm looking for a heck of a lot more than a 4th rounder...

why would we trade him for a fourth rounder? our fourths don't even make the team.

Our firsts only make it because someone has too.

And that doesn't even guarantee if they play or how long they stay. Which seems to be a quick out of late.

We can probably get a 3rd rounder from the Cowboys. If I were the Browns, I wouldn't draft a QB in the 1st round. None of them have an elite grade. I would look at drafting a QB in the second round.

If we don't think there's a QB we want in the 1st round AND we still want to get rid of Manziel, then stick with McCown, Davis, and Shaw next year. Don't waste a top 40 pick on a flawed QB you'll want to replace in 2 years when we have this many holes.

I'm not sure if I'm as confidant in Manziel's future as you are... but I do agree that I don't think Pet and Manziel can peacefully coexist. I don't think Pet will ever have any confidence in him.

Pett would have more confidence if Johnny can win some games and stay fully engaged.
I'm a JM fan, btw.

I might have more confidence in Pet if he could win some games and appear to be fully engaged.

Lol, good one!

Me, too btw

I don't think that Pett has any trouble having confidence in Manziel - if he gets his act together; I think the organization as a whole has trouble having any trust or belief in him that he will be a professional and execute things as designed.

Next year I do NOT want a QB competition. They have RARELY worked out well for us or other NFL teams in the long run with the exception of Seattle. Just do what Minnesota and Oakland have done.

And by "rarely".. you mean "never", right?

If Manziel is cut or shipped and Pettine survives, there won't be a QB competition.

McCown will start.

it worked last year, to an extent.

We picked the better of the two at the time, considering the options... Hoyer played respectably when all things around him were going well, then at the first sign of adversity, everything folded..

i agree, but i think Hoyer started playing bad just because he mechanics went to crap out of nowhere.

I don't understand why either. he still had time in the pocket, we still had some semblance of a running game.

at this point though, if manziel makes it through the offseason without being cut/traded, he needs to have to job. let's see what happens when a guy know he has the job all throughout training camp and preseason, through the regular season. we have never done that yet.

His mechanics went out the window because he was playing with a pulled quadriceps muscle which mean it was very painful for him to plant his feet but shanny still wanted him to throw 80 yard bombs anyways. It was one of the reasons I didn't like shanny.

What? I don't ever recall hearing that. Cundiff had a quadriceps injury at one point, but I never recall Hoyer having one. I did a quick search and didn't find anything - can you provide a link?

I don't recall Hoyer having a quad injury either, but he was only 10+ months removed from his ACL surgery at the start of the season. Usually, that's a 12+ month rehab. But the first half of the season was when he played his best games, so I don't think his collapse could be chalked up to injury. More like the combination of a bunch of things ... Mack's injury, causing an O-Line re-shuffle; Gordon returning and underperforming (to put it politely); both RBs hitting the rookie wall, no longer hitting holes and putting the ball on the ground (IIRC). Last, and most of all, knowing that your HC was getting pressured by the GM and ownership to play your backup. Hoyer showed a lot of grit and determination to come back from his knee injury quicker than normal, but in the end he wasn't mentally or emotionally strong enough to just push the whole Manziel circus to the side and simply do his job.

Dave for what it’s worth I think your closer to the truth then the others. It kind of amazes me how posters can’t add things up.

Am I in tune with the why’s Hoyer struggled part, absolutely I am, and I will offer proof that most of you will dismiss.

I want to frame this for you all 1st and in my belief that you have to be honest if with no one else then yourself. I liked Hoyer very much, he is a huge over achiever who poor’s his heart and soul into his work, in other words he is passionate about playing. Given his limited physical skills he has overcome even excelled because he is tough. But his greatest asset is leadership and smarts. When Hoyer hangs it up I believe he will be a great HC someday. His play last year inspired his teammates and make no mistake the other players rallied around Hoyer on both sides of the ball, he is just that galvanizing a leader.

But last season before camp broke I said the Browns coaching staff was mishandling the QB position and they were, they never committed to Hoyer at any point in fact after the Cincy throttling Pet said” We continue to evaluate the QB position on a week to week bases”. Not exactly the kind of endorsement you would expect after such a stellar performance, and that was the beginning of things sort of unraveling for Hoyer. There were many other factors as you have mentions Dave.

Sounds sort of innocent doesn’t it? But for Hoyer who could never get the FO and staff to get behind him, mostly due to JF presents it was frustrating and it took its toll on him. Now some folks will take that as Hoyer being mentally weak, but he is anything but he just was in a place where no matter what he did or how well he played the leash was short the organization wanted JF, and they didn’t hide it. The organization worked their magic and Hoyer regressed, but make no mistake they (the organization) did all they could to insure that happened.

The proof is they did the exact opposite this year back in OTA’s they named McCown the starting QB, they went out of their way to show and demonstrate support, something they never did for Hoyer EVER. But what they showed was that they KNEW or that they learned from their mishandling of Hoyer.

Think about this guy’s your boss isn’t supporting you even though you are preforming at a high level, in fact your boss lets it be known to you and everyone who will listen that he lives for the day he can replace you. And eventually it just wears you down, just like it did Hoyer.

But here is the thing they learn I believe. They learned that your starter has to have the support of the organization that everything has to lean in that direction. Even though behind closed doors the organizational goal is to replace that player they publicly and team wise MUST show total commitment to the starter and they did that this year.

In other words the organization failed and as a result the player failed too. Nice to see Hoyer playing well in Houston I wished he were still here he if nothing else is a great leader and leadership on this Rutter less ship is in short supply.

as opposed to this year when nothing worked and we just folded LOL

BTTB's point, that Hoyer never had the support of the Browns front office... here is a good read to help show the "attitude" of management toward Hoyer.


Browns GM Ray Farmer wants rookie QB Johnny Manziel to play when time is right


November 4, 2014 by Scott Petrak
link

BEREA — General manager Ray Farmer wants the time to be right for rookie quarterback Johnny Manziel to enter the lineup.

Farmer understands people are eager to see “what’s under the hood” with the popular Manziel and believes he can be a successful starter, but isn’t in a rush to get an evaluation.

“I would tell you it depends upon what that opportunity looked like and what we thought we were getting out of it,” Farmer said Tuesday. “I want Johnny to play when Johnny’s ready to play. We’re comfortable with where we’re at and how we want to play him with what the total organization looks like around him.

“The result is for him to be successful for a long period of time and not just for a moment or a flash but for an extended period of time. So we’re going to put together the right group and make sure everything is in place and he’s going to be ready and we’re going to be ready when he does get the opportunity.”

Farmer met with the media for the first time since before the opener to give a midpoint update. He said he prefers letting the coaches and players talk during the season.

Much of the 17-minute news conference was spent discussing the quarterbacks and receiver Josh Gordon, who’s due to come off suspension in two weeks. Farmer didn’t provide much clarity on either topic.

Starting quarterback Brian Hoyer’s contract expires after the season, while Manziel has thrown one pass. Farmer isn’t bothered by the unknown.

“No challenge at all,” he said. “I think it’s pretty simple. I think at the end of the day we sit down and make decisions that are good for our football team. We don’t talk about the personal aspects in some respects. That seems cruel and not right, but our charge is to win football games. That’s what we try to make our decisions based on.”

He was asked if he expects both quarterbacks to be on the team next year.

“Brian’s contract expires at the end of the season, Johnny’s doesn’t,” Farmer said. “We’ll see what happens with Brian between now and then.”

He wouldn’t divulge whether he has a policy against negotiating contract extensions during the season. He said he wouldn’t discuss any player contracts in the media.

Hoyer is 8-3 as Browns starter, including 5-3 this year. He’s completed 58 percent for 2,014 yards, 10 touchdowns, four interceptions and a 90.3 rating.

Farmer said no when asked if Hoyer’s exceeded expectations.

“I’m a firm believer that guys given opportunities perform to the level that they’re asked,” he said. “Either they make it or they don’t. Sometimes it’s good when you don’t have all the namesake and fanfare and you go out and accomplish your job.”

Besides winning, Farmer said he’s been most impressed with Hoyer carrying himself as “a pro.”

“I’ve always talked about guys that study it, learn it, love it, breathe it, and he’s done that,” Farmer said. “So to his credit, he’s demonstrated not only to those on the outside world, but those interior, his commitment and his drive to be as good as he can be.”

The success of Hoyer and the Browns through eight games has allowed Manziel to learn from the sideline. That was coach Mike Pettine’s preference since before the draft.

“Development is individual. Guys get out of it what they put into it,” Farmer said. “For me, I’m excited where our guys are. All along, we knew we drafted Johnny and we knew we wanted him to develop and take his time.

“From where he’s progressing and what we’re asking him to do, I feel good about where he’s at, I feel good about where Brian’s at and I feel good about where the Cleveland Browns are in regards to those two players.”

Gordon’s return for the final six games, which could be a push toward the playoffs, is greatly anticipated by fans. Gordon led the league with 1,646 receiving yards in 14 games in 2013.

Farmer was less enthusiastic.

“(He’ll have) as much of an impact as he’s prepared to have and as much of an impact that we give him an opportunity to have,” Farmer said. “Do you disrupt what you do offensively to just make sure that you throw the ball to Josh Gordon? I don’t know if that’s really the right way to operate.

“Is he a phenomenal talent? Sure, I’d tell you that he is a talented young man and he can do a lot of good things. But do you kind of disrupt what you are to just make sure that one person gets the ball? I think that teams win. Talent doesn’t. It’s really about building a team, and people have to find a way to fit into the team and I think that’s what we’re looking for here is a championship-level team.”

Farmer said he holds no lingering hard feelings from Gordon’s suspension for another violation of the league’s substance-abuse policy.

“None at all,” he said.

He was asked if he has any reservations that Gordon won’t fit in.

“I’m not pointing at Josh,” Farmer said. “The statement is made in general that everybody on our football team has to play a role. They’ve got to fit into what we want to do, they’ve got to play those roles to that degree.

“So there’s no slight on Josh. There’s no intimation that I said that he was suspect or he wasn’t doing anything that he was asked to do.”

With the showdown with Cincinnati coming Thursday night, Farmer thinks the Browns have partially closed the gap within the AFC North in terms of overall roster strength.

“I would say right in the middle,” he said. “I think we’ve done some good things. So I’m not going to diminish kind of how our coaches have utilized our guys and how they’ve performed to date, but I’ll also tell you there’s a lot more to go.”

Farmer was crystal-clear on one subject: his appreciation for his rookie coach.

“I think Mike Pettine is awesome,” he said. “He’s phenomenal to work with. He’s a leader. He’s definitely taken the bull by the horns. He’s not afraid to balance today with tomorrow. So he understands where we’re trying to take this thing long term, but he also understands what we have to accomplish today. I’m all-in on Mike Pettine.”

This story came out two days before the Browns played the Bengals in Cinci on a Thursday night, on 4 days rest, the Browns winning 24-3.

From that point forward, Hoyer's play began to decline as the front office could not wait to give the starting job to Manziel (imo). With the Browns still in the race for a playoff spot, Manziel started at home against the Bengals..Manziel was horrible and the Browns suffered their worst defeat of the year, 30-0.

I often wonder, what if the Browns management had supported Hoyer...all he did was bust his butt, trying to win.

It's pretty rare that a 1st round pick qb isn't seen as the player the team is going to support. That's just the way it goes 99% of the time. I don't think there was anything unusual about the way we managed the situation.

The reality is a FA or late round pick has to earn everything. Top picks are going to be given chance after chance. It's always been that way.

good thing hoyer is not here. we would have won at least 3 more games and be out of the grand prize in the draft.......

I think the way they have gone about working over the roster instead of building on it they have guaranteed the results we see. And I think most fans would do the very same thing these idiots have done. That's what I think and that is sad.....

Read the False start JT thread for proof.

Sorry I don't. It was something I learned about when they were doing a tv show about Peyten Manning's inability to throw the ball at the end of last season being because he had both legs with pulled quads. During that show they brought up it being the same thing that happened to Hoyer and he verified that he played injured almost all the second half of the season because he didn't want to lose his shot at being starter.

I watched it last year so I'm sorry but I have no way to go back and find the video for it. It came out after the season was over though and was confirmed by Hoyer himself. Pet seems to like playing injured players ...

They were good in practice.

yea. finding it harder and harder to follow or read anything browns related......

We "upgraded" several position groups by bringing in players who are equally as talented (or less so) and often older, and paying them significantly more (see dline and bowe).

Me too. My favorite thread has become the one about the uniforms.

If we keep everyone (GM, HC, QB), we'll probably make the playoffs next year..

With nothing "new" to talk about, this off-season will be boring and depressing, there will be nothing to "look forward to" based on how this season is ending..

Which is right about the time the Browns have just a good enough season to bring all the fans back in, only to rip their hearts out again..

I don't know if anything was ever written on it. It was a news story I watched on TV about Peyton Manning's double Quad injury that he played through last season. It was after the season was over but before the draft. In that show they brought up Hoyer having played through the same injury and showed how you could tell when he got hurt because the force behind his throws disappeared the same as it did for Peyton Manning. They had Hoyer on for like a short 1 or 2 minute clip and he confirmed what happened and mentioned several other Browns players where playing hurt that season including Joe Thomas(who also confirmed that later on).

I don't remember the name of the show because I honestly don't watch tv that much. I do know that they made a lot of sense and it looked reliable info to me since it was either on NFL network or espn and had the actual players backing the story up.

Don't have anyway to provide a link since it was something I saw on TV.

Does anyone feel like no matter what happens on the field with Manziel, it will be nothing more than a circus atmosphere around Berea? If so, how can that EVER be good for the locker room? Just wondering...

If he is good no one will care, nor will it be considered a circus anymore. The circus atmosphere is partly being created by the Browns, but mostly by Johnny's "celebrity" and the legions of people who actually care what a 23 year old is doing every second of the day. It will all be fine if he is a franchise QB.

When the HC is a puppet for the media, there will always be a story. Gronk does a hell of a lot more in public than Manziel but Belly controls the media. Pet is a slave to them. Think back to the playbook nonsense. Pet doenst know when to shut the hell up.

Gronk also didn't waste his first year in the NFL then go to rehab. So there's that.