DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum More on Manziel

Nope, he didn't. But if he did, and he ended up being as good as he is now, everyone would be saying "WOW! Look what rehab did for Gronk!" which is exactly what will happen to Johnny if he studs out. If he doesn't, then his drinking and partying will be the reason he stunk.

Which is exactly why the rules do not allow posting information that was "seen on TV", there's no way to prove it. Back in the day any post doing such would have been deleted. It prevents people "making things up" by posting info they can't prove. If they didn't have to prove it one could say anything.

These days though, many post that sort of info. I do it myself on occasion even though I think it's a very good rule not to.

Neither have I ever heard anything about an injury like that being associated with Hoyer. In all the times he was playing bad and in all the discussions the board has had about him both toward the end of last season and all through the off season, this is the first I've heard of it.

So what's your over/under percentage prediction of stud/stunk?

Since it seems he put partying as his top priority last year, there is probably some merit to that.

last year or last week?

15%stud/85%dud

I can understand where your coming from. I don't make things up though. I get force fed Peyten news because South Bend, IN loves the guy even after he moved to denver. I caught it purely by luck. Still Hoyer confirmed it in person so I view it as worthy enough to share.

Believe me or not your choice. I'm not offended either way.

That is and has been the problem and fans struggle to put their finger on it and over react..

They complain about the lack of leadership on the current roster and fail to make the connections like Rube being gone, and yes Hoyer being gone. Hoyer led the team, not just the offense and Rube led the D line.

We toss those guys out and replace them with nothing and then the fans fail to realize the effects of the loss of leadership, and why and what brought that about.

Look folks without Text ever saying it he set out on a mission to get rid of nearly every player we had on the roster when he took over the GM spot and he is closing in on doing just that. Point is he is willing to allow good productive players go in favor of higher priced older players instead of being patient and allowing these players to grow and gel into the team they were on the cusp of being.

In the process of doing so he not only set the team back he stole the future from us. Players like Whitner and Starks aren't going to be here when the corner is turned and even if they were going to be here when that happened you can't mess with team chemistry to the extent he has it sets the team back the results are self evident if you THINK. But most fans react they don't think and that is where they fail to recognize Texts true reasons for failure, and the reason he MUST go.

The idea is to build and while he never said it he rebuilt a team that needed tweaks not wholesale change. He reworked the roster when he should have stuck it out with what we had and allowed these guys to continue to gel and mature together. He like the fans over reacted.

That doesn't mean you don't roll out under performers it means you in the case of young talent display some patients and steadiness.

Say what you will about Banner the dude had it right and I for one applauded his willingness to wait and see in his 1st and only season here. We have watched over the course of the past 2 off seasons as young talent has been allowed to leave or as they were cut.

When that stops will start winning and Texts reboot if you will of the roster the past 2 years has actually set the team back for another 2-3 years.

Some of it has to do with his rookieness and some has to do with his ego and his desire to have his hand print on everything Browns related when it comes to the roster. I believe that it really rubs him the wrong way when a player was brought in or drafted outside of his influence and its nearly totally done in the current roster.

When we hire Texts replacement listen carefully if he is committed to building we have our man if he utters or even hints at rebuild we need to move on he isn't the right guy. If he utters the words we have talent and simply need to build on that then we have our guy. But as always actions speak loader then words.

There is no way to go back 2 years and start again from there but God I sure wished we could the mistakes that have been made across the board have stripped us of what should have been a bright future. SAD

Do we really want to build on the foundation laid by Farmer? You yourself said it was flawed; that he had replaced talent with lesser talent.

don't think anyone is saying you did not hear it. just weather what you heard was right.

yea... watch farmer get rid of players that pettine emphasized as play like a brown.... and people were calling me a troll for saying set up to fail.....

Give me a break, Mac and BTTB (would be cool if your name was cheese here). Hoyer was a leader? Hoyer wouldn't even acknowledge the other guy in the QB room. That's not being a leader. And Rubin, though I love the guy and was thrilled when they drafted him, is one of the quietest guys in the NFL and "anchored" the 32nd ranked run D last year.

The run D will suck as long as we have continuity of terrible coaching and scheme.

Obviously this means that had we kept Hoyer and Rubin, and made no other changes, we'd be in the playoffs, right?

well would be out of the #1 draft pick hunt...........

Some of the coaching has been so bad that there is no possible way to evaluate the talent and that is the part that scares me. do we rip on Armonty Bryant for not being able to cover a receiver with 4.4 speed in the open field?

When Duke is tearing it up the first half and doesnt get a single snap in the 2nd. That has nothing to do with a Hoyer.

I havent seen this much incompetence from a coach since romeo was here. Hell clock management alone has cost us probably 4 or 5 games. Not challenging plays at critical moments has hurt. These arent complicated things. SD, Denver, Oakland, Balti, Cinn, AZ was just some horendous coaching.

I defend coaches unless I see something really wrong with what they are doing and in this case, its horrible. I also know a new coach probably isnt gonna want Manziel as his QB. I believe Johnny will be good but we arent gonna win with Pet and his schemes.

When the OL coach went nuts and was fired, it was pets job to find a replacement to keep this top offensive line going and he couldnt do it and thats on him.

Hell, JT has played with bilateral quad issues all of last year... He nor his agent made a big deal of it, which is more unsettling to see his agent get mad at Rizzo this year.

Not to be insulting, but this is silliness man! Hoyer had the respect of 51 (at least a majority) other players on the roster, but because he didn't acknowledge JM, he's not a team player? Why is Hoyer being held as the example of a poor teammate because of that, yet you guys don't think JM was a poor teammate for basically peeing on the rest of the team his rookie season?

How about JM was a poor teammate because he showed no respect for Hoyer and the job they were hired to do?

Talking about leadership. I'm thinking it was a huge mistake to start Hoyer instead of Manziel game 1 last year. OTJ training may have kept JM in line from day one, and knowing Hoyer was just a bandaide anyways.

The Brown's leadership has now cost them nearly two seasons of forward development.

Fox's Brady Quinn on Johnny Manziel: 'He's got all the talent in the world to be a franchise QB'

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/12/foxs_brady_quinn_on_johnny_man.html

By Mary Kay Cabot, Cleveland.com on December 12, 2015 at 8:18 PM, updated December 13, 2015 at 7:46 AM

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Brady Quinn, who will call the Browns-49ers game Sunday for Fox, hopes the Browns don't give up on Johnny Manziel like they did him and other young quarterbacks.

"He's got all the talent in the world to be a franchise quarterback,'' Quinn told cleveland.com. "It's just a matter of the stars aligning and somebody giving him the opportunity to be the guy. Can the Browns draft guys to help him out? Will they have the patience enough to let him develop? No one has any patience anymore. The second he has a bad game, people are calling for the next guy to come in.''

First and foremost, however, Quinn hopes that Manziel -- who gets his starting job back Sunday after two weeks on the bench -- takes care of himself off the field so he can excel on it.

"I know what I'd want out of a Cleveland Browns quarterback,'' he said. "Being a fan growing up, and being a guy who was here and got traded away, I took a lot of pride in playing quarterback here and I wasn't going to be out galavanting around town, especially during the season. This team has been starved just to go to the playoffs, so that's the most difficult thing for me to swallow is seeing that stuff.

"Just figure out a more professional way of doing it, and do it in the offseason and out of the public eye,'' he said. "It's such a bad image and obviously perception is reality.''

Quinn, who was highly critical of Manziel for his frat-boy personna last season, is now more concerned for him than anything else.

"When you go to a clinic for some sort of substance abuse issue or whatever it was, it sets off red flags and you're concerned for the guy's wellbeing,'' he said. " Last season, I was disappointed to see what he was doing. This year, if he's got a real issue, it's heartbreaking. It's sad and you hope that he can get help and he can fix whatever his issues are if indeed that was the case.''

He said it appeared to him that coach Mike Pettine did the right thing in benching Manziel for the past two games for partying over the bye weekend and lying to the coaching staff about it.

"If Johnny Manziel has an issues with drug abuse or alcohol, whatever it is, that would be what's alarming to me,'' said Quinn. "That's what would make the punishment make sense, because he's trying to protect the young man. He's trying to take something away from him that makes him realize he can't keep turning to that sort of thing. As a coach, you want to have trust in your quarterback because they're an extension of you on the field and it's a very delicate thing.''

He said he believes the Browns should focus as much on helping Manziel off-the-field as on, which echoes what Pettine has been saying.

"If there's an issue with addiction, it's not like it goes away,'' said Quinn. "You don't go to rehab and it gets cured. You battle that your whole life. If that's what's going on -- based on (admitting himself to inpatient rehab) this spring -- you hope they can continue to work with him and they don't just give up on him.''

If Manziel can get it together off the field, Quinn believes he's worth more time and effort.

"At some point, if you draft a kid, then let him go through his growing pains,'' said Quinn. "He's not going to be perfect right away. Johnny's not going to be perfect (on Sunday). But the more reps he gets he's going to get better and I promise you that because he's got all the talent and the skills in the world.''

Quinn said quality rookies such as Marcus Mariota are more the exception than the rule.

"It's a difficult transition regardless of what system you're coming in from, but Johnny has also had to learn an entirely new system and I think people underestimate that,'' he said.

He said he was encouraged by the leap Manziel made in one week this season from the Cincinnati game to the Pittsburgh game.

"He had a terrible start in Pittsburgh (the fumble on the first play) and it's hard to start much worse, but as the game wore on, he got more comfortable and more confident,'' said Quinn. "You started to see him move his feet really well through is progressions, and he was really in control and kind of put the game on his shoulders. It was encouraging to see the type of strides he had made just in that one week.''

On Sunday, Quinn is curious to see how Manziel fares against Quinn's former Browns head coach Eric Mangini, now the 49ers defensive coordinator.

"It might be tough to get back into the rhythm, plus he's going against a guy who's a pretty good defensive mind in Eric Mangini,'' said Quinn. "He'll disguise coverages and to try to confuse Johnny before the snap and after the snap. He'll use some different stunts and games up front to try to pressure him and get him to leave the pocket the way he wants him to leave the pocket, and he'll have a guy chasing him down from the backside or a guy wrapping back around that will be free coming after him.

"I can guarantee you, he's going to have something dialed up for Johnny that they haven't seen before.''

Quinn, who would 'jump at the chance' to re-sign with the Browns, doesn't believe nine starts for Manziel -- which he'll end up with if he starts the final four games -- is enough to decide if he's the quarterback of the future.

"I had 12 and they wanted to move on from me in Cleveland,'' he said. "Is it enough? It all comes down to what happens after the season. If (general manager) Ray Farmer and (coach) Mike Pettine are still here, I'd imagine he'd have a great opportunity to be their guy if he plays well the next four weeks. That will be a big factor.

"Beyond that, do I think it's enough time? Heck no. To really see what he's capable of, it would take three full seasons of playing in the NFL. Not 10 starts. People have no patience in the NFL anymore.''

Quinn, No. 12 on the list of 24 Browns quarterbacks to start a game for the Browns since 1999, is tired of watching the Browns cast aside good young quarterbacks -- especially those drafted in the first round. Selected No. 22 overall out of Notre Dame in 2007, Quinn started only 12 games (3-9) for the Browns before they shipped him to Denver after the 2009 season for running back Peyton Hillis.

"I'd love to think I could've been successful, especially if they would've let Rob Chudzinski stay as the offensive coordinator,'' said Quinn. "I would've loved to see where my career would've gone if I had time to develop there. I'm probably the only quarterback who would've stayed in Cleveland my entire career regardless of how many games we won or whatever else, because it was the place I wanted to be, it was the place I grew up rooting for and the place I never really wanted to leave.

"That's the unfortunate thing. I would've signed a deal for life and tried to get better until they had to drag me off the field physically.''

Since his ouster, Quinn has watched the Browns turn over coaches, front offices, owners --- and especially quarterbacks. Twelve have started a game since he debuted in 2008, and the Browns have quickly abandoned good young prospects such as Colt McCoy, Brandon Weeden and Brian Hoyer.

"Once they decide they have a guy who's a franchise guy, they need to stick with him,'' he said. "I feel like what they did to Brian Hoyer was just awful. The only quarterback since 1999 to have a winning record and you just let the guy go? And now he's down with the Houston Texans who are still in the playoff hunt in the AFC South. It doesn't make any sense to me.''

A lifelong Browns fan, Quinn has followed the careers of other deposed Browns quarterbacks such as McCoy, who's currently the backup in Washington. Last season, McCoy beat the Cowboys 20-17, throwing for 299 yards and completing 83.3 percent of his passes for a 94.3 rating.

"It's funny,'' said Quinn. "He's done a pretty good job with the opportunities he's had in Washington, so I'll be curious to see what happens when free agency comes up this offseason.''

Quinn, who's career fizzled after back surgery when he was with the Rams in 2013, noted that most players never rebound from a rocky start with a bad team. Quinn went 1-7 with the Chiefs in 2012 and never got another chance to start.
"Once you have an experience where things don't go well, it's really hard to overcome that stigma of 'he's a bust,''' said Quinn.

He cited the case of 49ers starting quarterback Blaine Gabbert, who's 2-2 this season since replacing Colin Kaepernick. The No. 10 overall pick in 2010 by the Jaguars, Gabbert went 5-22 in his four seasons as a starter in Jacksonville.

"The young man got absolutely pounded playing for a really bad team in Jacksonville,'' Quinn said. "Now he's getting an opportunity with a team that's actually giving him the chance and actually believes in him. He's 2-2 as a starter this year and looks like a different quarterback after sitting on the bench and watching and learning. It shows you what can happen if you give guys the opportunity to develop and mature, and an organization that isn't ready to pull the rug out from underneath him at a moment's notice.''

Still, he noted that Gabbert is penalized for his time spent in Jacksonville.

"It's not like he's got a ton to work with this season and and he's doing a really good job,'' said Quinn. "But people are still like 'they have to draft a quarterback because Blaine Gabbert is not the long-term solution.' It's like 'who knows?' People immediately want to write him off because of what he was in Jacksonville.''

Quinn, who analyzed 14 college games this season for Fox and CBS, cautioned against trading Manziel and drafting a quarterback with the top pick.

"It's hard,'' he said. "You can look at guy like (Memphis') Paxton Lynch, who has all the measurables, the size, the strong arm, athleticism, is built to withstand the beating he'll take in the NFL, but at the same time, he's playing in the American Conference, so is the competition going to be up to par and is the system he's running going to translate?

"I think Connor Cook is the most prepared to be in that position based on the offense he ran and the size and protocol pocket passer that you look for, but he didn't have quite as an impressive year as you would've hoped in his final year. So it becomes, who are you going to draft?''

Likewise, Quinn is opposed to firing Pettine after only two seasons.

"I don't know Mike Pettine but he seems like a really good guy,'' said Quinn. "If he sat Johnny because he feels like has a problem, he's almost acting like a father figure and that sends a strong message to me, like this guy really cares about his players and all of that.

"He seems like a good guy who's trying to do the best he can with what he's got. You've got to have everyone in that building on that same page. You have to let the guys who have the football knowledge to control it.''

Quinn, who's open to playing again, has been saddened by all the losing and the revolving door since he left.

"There's not many guys left from where I played here,'' he said. "Only Joe Thomas and Alex Mack. It's incredible when you look at other teams and other rosters. Since 1999, the Browns have had the most turnover of any team by far. Jacksonville and Oakland are up there too, but it's ridiculous how much turnover Cleveland's had.''

Especially at the quarterback position.

Sounds like Quinn would love to be a Brown again

j/c:

Johnny played well yesterday. He has improved w/the mental part of the game. He provides a real spark on the field. He threw from the pocket and he extended plays. He does hold the ball too long and that has to change because there is no way that he gets that much time to throw every week. The throw that was picked was a terrible decision.

Mistakes will happen w/young qbs. I've seen Bortles, Teddy, and Carr all make a lot of mistakes in their two years as starters. They are young qbs and those things are expected. We should not expect JM to be any different. The sad thing is that those guys have way more game experience than Johnny has.

I think we should stick w/him and NOT draft a qb in round one. I am not very impressed w/any of those guys.

So much lost game time and experience this year for Manziel. Josh is a great team mate but not starting Johnny this year was a terrible decision by this coaching staff.

A little bit of history repeating itself?


http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/footba...rticle-1.323710


Favre had become addicted to the painkiller Vicodin. Deanna attributes Brett's drug abuse to the shock of sudden celebrity. "All of a sudden, he was thrust into the spotlight," she says. "He was shy. Whether it was Vicodin or alcohol, that was his way of coping."

After doctors found severe liver damage in 1996, Brett agreed to enter rehab, and was able to kick his addiction. He and Deanna were married several months later and welcomed daughter Breleigh in 1999, but his problems with substance abuse had not ended. By 1999, Brett had returned to heavy partying, and was abusing alcohol. Deanna contacted a divorce attorney, which helped scare her husband into quitting drinking entirely, according to Deanna.

The 1990s tested their relationship, but Deanna ultimately appreciated that Brett chose to seek help. "He was battling a disease," she says. "I was trying to support him, and when he started making the right choices by getting the help he needed, that made a difference."

I didnt see this coming!
Useless win,dropped us to the third pick.
Look for Johnny to win out and drop us,even further.
Happy for Johnny,but doesnt,help the team out.

Couldnt care less about Johnny partying,you guys best get used to it.
Hopefully doesnt go the Don Rodgers route.

So what would you rather have happen? Lose the rest of the games? And to what end?

There isn't a number 1 overall QB in the next draft that I can see. Nobody sticks out.

SO the Value of the number one pick is probably good for a trade where we pick up a second #1 this year or next and to me, that's about it.

This is the year we got to go after WR's, Oline/DB's/Safety and without a doubt, we will need some LB's. We don't need the Number 1 pick to get those.

I still don't know if Manziel is the long term answer, but what I do know is that the team is responding to him and playing better with him in the game. I also noticed him on the sidelines with his teammates. Ya know, He might be just fine.

Barring a leap backwards, we should double down on Johnny and use the pick for other holes. Bosa would be great, as would the best available WR or LB.
I realize the 49ers aren't good, but they have been better than we have been. You can't just "yeah, but" the first time we show a great running game and win decisively. I like McCown a lot, but by my count Johnny is 2-1 as a starter. And he is getting better.

Manziel has all the talent he needs to be a great QB but his vision of the field is was really impresses me. Not just during the scripted play but when it breaks down his mind doesn't go into panic mode, the game has slowed down alot for him in the short time he has played. He's got something really special but sometimes it gets the better of him like the pick he threw, needs to learn when to give it up can't make something happen on every play. A few more play makers on offense, draft a good WR and Gordon turns it around and returns to his former glory. One can only hope what could be, my head is probly just a little to swollen from the win yesterday.

I think he is 2-2. Beat the Titans week 2. Lost to the Bengals and Steelers. Beat the 49ers.

I agree. It is one of the reasons I would seriously consider firing them.

who in this class are Franchise QB's?

I think a big test will be can Manziel lead the team to a victory on the road and/or against a team we are expected to be defeated by. A win against the Seahawks or Chiefs on the road and/or a win against the Steelers in the final season game at home could go a long way in team chemistry.

Wow!! I actually feel for the guy. It's not often where someone says that they want to play in Cleveland for the Browns and actually mean it. It's a shame things didn't work out for him here and that we, as a fan base, have no patience. None of what he said came across as sour grapes, either. It was more like a sad disappointment that a team he still kind of pulls for can't seem to turn the corner.

This town will go crazy with Manziel Mania if he pulls off a win against the Steelers. I don't think it will happen, but we can always hope...and pray.

The Browns have the 2nd pick right now. Don't worry, the Browns aren't winning out. They will be lucky to win ONE more game this year.