DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Case for Keeping Them

I want O'Neil gone and Pettine gone. I would not lose sleep over anyone lost on the offensive coaching staff either. However, if they were retained by a new HC, I would not be concerned. I want to keep Farmer. I feel that the verdict is still out on the draft picks for Farmer. Gilbert, Manziel, Erving, and Shelton are not finished products but I do not believe they are busts. I believe that it is quite possible that Farmer is the genius by getting us additional picks and giving us a chance to build through the draft. It is also possible that this HC and coaching staff cannot develop players into stars in the NFL from the raw football talent they have. There is NO WAY the talent is going to change drastically from this season to next. There is NO reason to believe that given another season that the draft picks will just blossom under this HC. Fire him weeks ago. This paralyzing talk about keeping him for a third year because no one will come to Cleveland with this mess is defeatist. Winners do not think in defeatists terms. Pettine has to go and a HC who can evaluate talent and scheme to get the best out of that talent is what is needed. Then after a year or two, honestly judge Farmer. It is very disheartening to hear that Browns fans are in any way against keeping the GM who has given them 12 picks in the 2015 draft and 10 or more in the 2016 draft, yet they want to keep a 3-16 head coach who has shown NO ability to develop talent or a team. Not to mention the HC's tendency to have a hard time dealing with non-traditional players such as Manziel, Gilbert, West, and dare I say Gordon if reinstated.

This is pretty much exactly how I feel.
I would give Pet and flip another year
Farmer and Oneil need to go.

Case for keeping ANY of them ; NONE !

j/c

My wish list:

1. Farmer- gone
2. Add OL coach
3. Keep everyone else. Get Pet back into D with O'Neil. Let Flip do his thing.


As bad as this season has been, I STILL think it's mostly growing pains. Year One of the O- without an OL coach. Year Two of the D- with O'Neil trying to run it solo. No evidence of a rift within the coaching staff.

If we want ANY shot at continuity, this wish list constitutes the least disruptive course of action.

IMHO, it's TONS better than yet another 'clean sweep.'

I pretty much agree w/this. Not sure about O'Neil, though.

I really don't want either. We have a talented enough line that we shouldn't have the problems we do on offense. However the playcalling is so horrible that it takes us back. I get the call for continuity, but we haven't been this bad in years, despite being a much better team.

I disagree wholeheartedly. The only knock I have with Flip is his reluctance to stay with the run.

I disagree w/you about the talent level. I think it's as bad as its been in a long time.

Exactly. All sounds fine and dandy, with the exception of keeping the defense in Jimmy O'Neil's hands. The man doesn't belong forming schemes and calling plays. He's a position coach and really, I'm not even sure I want O'Neil in our linebacker room either.

JMO

I just can't make a case for Pettine . We have two years of work to examine . I understand throwing a bunch of problems at the feet of Farmer , but Pets game management( lack of ) game day personal and total lack of Offense comprehension ( the chess game between O and D )just makes me cringe .. I will admit his personality is not what I want in my Coach either .

Having Armonty Bryant covering a receiver with 4.4 speed one on one is stupid. Having Kruger cover a receiver 1 on 1 is stupid. Has not a damn thing to do with talent.

pet's clock management is the worst in the league.

This defense had no fire and no passion for the game from week one following camp cupcake.

Frankly Manziel is the only player on this team that has improved under Mike Pettine.

The Players want him to stay because they want camp cupcake renewed. Manziel wants Pet back well, he was probably drunk when he made those comments lol

Pierre was this superstar in the making according to Pet and he cant get on the field because of the talent level of Bademosi? Are you freaking kidding me.

Some have referred to Pet as Petty for good reason.

It is hard to judge lack of talent when you see a total lack of effort.

Farmer is no innocent and his texting and Bowe contract are grounds for removal. Frankly its just an argument of which stinks worse dog crap or cat crap and hopefully Haslma realizes both are crap.

I think Manziel wants Pett back because that's his best chance to stay and start. If Pett isn't back, he's likely gone and likely going to be a back up somewhere else. I hope this has been a tough life lesson for him.

I am really torn on bringing Pettine back for two reasons ... 1) O'Neil and 2) his sideline demeanor. I know that second one sounds kind of petty, but I just find it so bizarre that he doesn't interact with coaches or players on game day other than through the microphone. What does that all mean? I'm not sure, but it just seems so odd, and I can't for the life of me understand how that is conducive to creating a team environment and ultimately winning.

I would like to see it through with Manziel though. And that means sticking with Pettine likely.

I don't know anymore. It all seems so hopeless.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/12/mike_pettine_appreciates_suppo.html#incart_2box

Mike Pettine appreciates support from Johnny Manziel and other veterans 'but it's a bottom-line business'

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Coach Mike Pettine appreciates the support from Johnny Manziel and other key veterans who have called for the Browns to keep him, but he also re-iterated it's a bottom-line business.

He said he wasn't surprised that Manziel called for the Browns to keep the coaching staff and the players, because he believes there's a mutual respect even though he benched Manziel after the bye week.

"It just reinforces what I've said all along from a personal standpoint, he and I get along very well,'' said Petitne. "If you just eliminate that incident where I felt like I was doing my job and doing what was best for the team -- and doing what was best for him -- and hopefully he respects that but I also know that from an interaction standpoint, when he's here, I have a ton of respect for him because of A. what he's gone through personally and B. how he has earned the respect of the guys around him.''

Pettine stressed that the veterans' support of Manziel speaks volumes.

"They see him ultra-prepared,'' said Pettine. "They see him seamlessly calling plays in the huddle and getting guys lined up and knowing where to go with the ball and doing his job that there's no substitute for hard work to get to that point and he's put it in. He's done it. So from a coaching staff standpoint, the football trust is there. We all know about the hiccup but the football trust is there, so it's not surprising. I've said it up here: he and I have a very good relationship. (Quarterback coach) Kevin O'Connell, (offensive coordinator) John DeFilippo, it's all very positive with the quarterback room and I would be surprised if that wasn't a two-way street.''

Related: Johnny Manziel calls for Browns to retain coaching staff, players

Related: Johnny Manziel calls for Browns to retain coaching staff, players

Johnny Manziel longs for the kind of continuity that Russell Wilson has in Seattle, and hopes that owner Jimmy Haslam keep the coaches and players intact.

Pettine, who spoke with Browns owner Jimmy Haslam on the field before practice, acknowledged it's good to hear team leaders such as nine-time Pro Bowler Joe Thomas, tight end Gary Barnidge and safety Donte Whitner call for continuity in the program.

"As a coaching staff, you hope you're running a program that the players enjoy being in and they respect the men that they work for and when you hear comments like that, it reinforces that but at the same time, we all know -- I've said it a million times -- this is a bottom line business,'' he said. "It's pass or fail and unfortunately we've failed more than we've passed and we also feel that we've planted some seeds for growth here.

"But as I stress to the players all the time, control the controllables and for us as a coaching staff, we're going to prepare like heck to get our team ready for Kansas City and next week for Pittsburgh and we're going to coach our butts off and hopefully we can get our guys the same -- preparing hard, practicing hard and as I said before, whatever happens, happens, but to answer your question it's good to hear but still pressing forward for two more weeks.''

Pettine also received a show of support from Chiefs coach Andy Reid, who said on a conference call, "Mike Pettine is a good football coach. We run similar defensive schemes. I've coached against him when he was with the Jets and he was a high school in Philadelphia when I was with the Eagles. I know the stock he comes from. He's a good coach.''

So now all of a sudden the Vets are in his ( JM ) Conner ? Now it's just one big happy family that just needs a couple of tweaks ?

No...all of a sudden guys realize a couple things:

1) Camp Cupcake may be over if Pettine leaves
2) No more "veteran days" off
3) Jobs may be lost with nowhere else to go

Farmer MUST go. O'Neil MUST go. That is the minimum amount of house cleaning that needs to take place for this franchise to move forward IMO.

Totally off the wall, but today at work, during a discussion of general subjects including the Browns and the Miss Universe pageant, it was suggested that maybe Steve Harvey could be the new HC.

I'm not seeing that at all, Mourg. Particularly the young guys - they are playing for their futures. Perhaps if you meant a lack of passion, I might be inclined to agree with you...

Yep

Don't forget last week when we had Dansby covering a wide receiver with Bademosi helping over the top.

I tried to use a subtle correction the first time you posted this. You ignored it. You have continued to post junk like this and I have ignored it because I like you and didn't want to antagonize you, but man, your argument is pure CRAP!

I have seen Ngata cover guys. I have seen guys like Donald, Hampton, Big Baby, and almost every other d-lineman in the past 10 years drop back into coverage occasionally. Teams do that. It's not unique to Pet. Come on, Mourg. Your love affair w/JM is making your irrational. You feel the need to bad-mouth everything Pet does.

Teams drop d-linemen and pass rushers into coverage all the time. They do it show different looks. To confuse the qb. It works at times, and occasionally it does not work. But please, don't act like it is an anomaly.

Bw------------weren't you ripping me for be a "whiner" before the season when I questioned some of Pet's moves and our roster? Funny how time changes things.

I thought I'd throw this article about Bill Polian in here as several posters have named him as a potential replacement for Farmer.

Article on Bill Polian (by old friend Vic Carucci):

http://bills.buffalonews.com/2015/12/23/247898/

Money quotes:





And a couple of things that reminded me of our team (it is interesting because Pettine learned under Rex):

Like a lot of us here, I'm all for Farmer getting the boot.

The problem isn't doing it. It's obviously a very smart idea. However, our frequency is why people are mad. Also, when they drop back in coverage they -- 99.9% of the time -- will cover a TE, RB or stay in an inside zone... Not a slot WR or outside zone.

Maybe Pettine doesn't have to go. His defense can be made less complicated and he can get out of his own head and have a better rate of success. Although with him failing to see these common problems, and his stubbornness to fix them, indicate much more macro problems than our defense.

Firing Farmer and expecting to retain Pettine is pretty much delusional, I have a hard time seeing any GM worth his salt agreeing to keep someone else's HC. He is going to want his own man.

cfrs15, Polian is absolutely correct. Rex's defense is complex. Once you have right pieces in place and players ingrained, defense is worthy. If you have to build, why not something that stands the test. Why settle for mediocre?

Because we don't have years to wait on a mystical defense that could provide us a top 5 defense x years down the line. It's kinda like playing for the 2030 NFL draft. You could probably do it, but it's pretty dumb.

I get what you're saying, but something about it bothers me.


It sounds a LOT like the philosophy that has led to the perpetual "rinse/repeat" scene that's been played out in Berea since 1999. The short-term "instant fix" mentality has dominated the course of CLE football since The Return, and led to FIFTEEN years of bottom-feeder status. Meanwhile, BAL, PIT and CIN have basically stuck with the same plan/team identity for the same period of time... and have numerous playoff appearances (and even 4 Super Bowl victories) to show for it.

The beauty behind Dick LeBeau's defenses isn't just the scheme. It's also the fact that there are always a TON of vets on the squad to teach the rooks how it works. They learn their roles, and blend in almost seamlessly by the time they've finished their rookie seasons. In Season Two, they play up beyond their rook levels, because they already fit... and know their jobs.

At some point, this team simply MUST commit to something and stick with it. 5 years is a minimum...

...because we're competing in a division that fields playoff dynasties dating back 20 years. It's high time we started doing things the way they do them-
-instead of 'playing like a Brown.'

.02

You do realize that most defenses have situations where a DB blitzes, forcing a LB or DL into coverage, banking on the DB forcing a throw before the receiver can get open, right? I can remember Rubin actually being in coverage on occasion in years past. Defenses, especially 3-4 defenses, try to confuse the opposing offense, by not allowing them to know where pressure is going to come from. That creates mismatches on occasion. It is the nature of the game, especially in a 3-4 defense.



Might be. I don't know. He definitely could benefit from a top end, experienced assistant head coach who could help with such things. Bringing one in is the problem though. This team has such a horrible reputation for blowing staffs out at the drop of a hat that finding top talent is going to be a problem.



They are outclassed, but no fire or passion? Really? We must be watching different games. The players seem fired up, and play hard, but just don't have enough difference makers in the clutch.



Gary Barnidge would disagree with you.



This "camp cupcake" is such nonsense. In training camp, we suffered a serious rash of injuries. Did Pettine back off somewhat? Sure. Is it because he "wanted to just go easy on everyone? Of course not. Did he want to keep the remaining healthy players healthy for the start of the season? I think that is far more likely.



Oh no! A coach might have made a mistake regarding a player. The horror! Seriously, coaches sometimes expect major progress from a player only to be forced in a different direction some times. Heck, if we had Haden, K'Waun Williams, and/or Justin Gilbert healthy, then maybe Bademosi doesn't play at DB. Bademosi is a special teams ace. The game day roster is a series of difficult decisions, and sometimes a backup player is left off because of other considerations.

Sounds rather petty to me. I actually do not recall seeing this from anyone. Maybe I have just ignored it.



And if there was an actual lack of effort, this might be true. The team is playing hard, as evidenced by the fact that they are in a lot of games at halftime. However, talent bears out in the 2nd half, and this team is, unfortunately, outclassed from a talent standpoint by most teams.

No doubt. I see the appeal in keeping him. Especially when you compare us to the teams in our division. Each of them have stuck to coaches for a long time and have paid off in some senses.

Me and my ilk do not preach the heavy rinse method. We only preach cleaning. I would have been jumping off the wall, kissing and hugging everyone I knew, if we had kept Chud (Unpopular opinion time: The team didn't quit on him. The team quit on Weeden.). I don't believe that one or two bad seasons are completely indicative to success. I certainly think they should be used to gauge coaching success, but I don't think it's the be all, end all that people make it to be.

When I look at the players on this team, I see a winner. A probable 10-6 team with average QB play and health. We have a top 5 offensive line in the NFL, probably more towards the top 2. Now, I'm an Ohio boy through and through. I believe games are won in the trenches, not on the wings. I watch the best teams win in the trenches. I believe in strategy, not "back-yard bullcrap" (Shout out to The Longest Yard) to win games. This is where I come from.

When I look at Pett and how he runs the offense (Buck stops here mentality) and defense (A reason why he needs to take more blame for his offense), I don't see a team playing towards our strength. I know we were handcuffed with McCown's arm being no stronger than his brother's was 8 years ago. However, our offense should have performed much better. We ran a lot of routes that didn't suit our maligned midgets and our QB's arm. Short, quick, choppy routes would have helped us a lot more than the intermediate routes we ran with McCown in. Once a QB with an arm stronger than a 5th grader, came in it really opened up the geometry of our offense. There's a reason why Benji plays best with JFF. Our running game was meh, but I'm willing to let that go considering our o-line coach's firing before the season. Although I think we would have done much better had we not tried any running plays with our FB's and TE's. They can't block for crap. I've seen more contact in soccer than when they try to block. Overall, I see an offense that sucks, but mainly due to its own devices.

As for our defense, we lost a lot of talent this year. Ray Farmer in all of his drafting genius, thought we should replace our defensive keys with draft picks in the future. Enough has been posted on that however. But I did want to highlight how we started with a short deck. It's only fair to Pett. That said, our defense is entirely way too complicated. I know this is part of the scheme's best points and I love it. I love the Ryan's defense and that style. All the way back to, Buddy, the original. That said, the theoretical aspects are beautiful, but you need to execute it. It's obvious that we have just failed at this end. Again, our defense getting gutted and playing hurt made it very hard to implement it to perfection. But this part of the problem. Pettine's stubbornness. When our defense was shown that it couldn't handle the concepts then he should have dumbed it down. You wouldn't try teaching someone calc without teaching them algebra 2 yet. The same philosophy applies. We went too complicated without getting a fundamental grasp on it. This caused our defense to flail around the field while trying to get into place. This problem only got exacerbated when we did not use our players to the best of their ability. We threw Kruger into coverage too many times, not allowing him to rush the pass for example. This was suppose to help the overall defensive strategy, but even I'll admit that, sometimes, football is just a game about beating the man in front of you. These type of problems only got compounded as we got worse.

Stubbornness and refusal of being adaptive is my biggest problem with Pettine... Football wise. I know that football isn't a war. But I'd like to preface this part with the philosophy of Sun Tzu. Sun Tzu preached that self-awareness was just as key as being aware of your enemy, if you were to defeat him. Knowing one without the other did not guarantee victory. This philosophy is most evident in football, where teams will spend multiple hours per week analyzing their opponent and themselves. Knowing your limitations is key to football. So I am left extremely disappointed when I watch the Browns play and lose the same exact way week after week. Nothing makes me angrier. Our refusal to adapt is a systemic problem within this organization, mainly Pettine. It's a gigantic macro issue that separates him from the better coaches. For example, Bill Belichick has constantly been updating Erhardt-Perkins system for over a decade and a half. You can actually watch our games under RAC (Who ran the EP system) and can see the same concepts in current Patriots' games, but it looks completely different and operates differently. It's honestly pretty cool to watch if you ever have the time. Especially since Bill has brought in Chip and others to adapt it to today's game. Adapting is key. When Harbaugh joined the 49ers, he quickly made the offense more simple, which took the 49ers to the NFC Championship game in his first year. Knowing yourself is key. There are a lot of examples like this, but it's late and those are on the top of my head.

This is why we need to get rid of Pettine, he doesn't adapt. He has shown that he can't coach in the NFL unless it's his style and his players. And the latter we still are not sure about. The question becomes, do we keep Pettine for 5+ years, letting him amass top picks in the NFL draft, similar to Marvin Lewis's tenure in Cinci, or do we try to find a coach who will adapt and can win now? I'd like to note that Marvin Lewis has never won a playoff game and the Bengals usually have losing records against teams better than 8-8. Honestly, if we keep Pettine, at best, we're getting our Marvin Lewis. I don't want Marvin Lewis. I want a winner.

Not only was it camp cupcake, there didn't appear to be any rhyme or reason to training camp. No focused goals. No purpose. There were "installs" as Pett likes to call it. He said the Browns were going to be the toughest team on the field, running the ball and stopping the run. Yet, it doesn't appear they did anything but go through the motions in training camp. There were multiple, multiple reports of this. Morning talk shows would spend hours discussing the purposeless, lackadaisical training camp that did not match and forecast the coach's words to the upcoming season. In a lot of ways, training camp was a precursor to what we've seen on the field this year.

This was a huge critical error in Pettine's second year and set the tone for the entire year. Does he appear like the type that will learn from this mistake? I'm not sure. After enjoying a modestly successful rookie year, he felt comfortable stepping in front of the camera after last year's season and talking about taking stock of all the things he did wrong and fixing them. This year he has never mentioned his own culpability, instead digging his heels in every chance he gets and displaying a defiance rarely seen by a coach who has delivered one of the worst products in NFL history.

And btw, there were several defensive awards handed out to players after the Seattle game. Are you kidding me? Handing out awards after getting your clocks cleaned? How does that in any way, shape, or form support a winning culture?

Other than Flip and O'Connell, it's high school hour in Berea.

I'm even more depressed now.

Hey losers are winners to in this day and age no?

I agree with what you posted...Dont like Pettine never liked the hire.

Maybe he was confused when he said they would punch people in the mouth..and meant they would be getting punched out by people/teams.

Ill tell 1 thing that has bothered me this year...it SEEMS like when one of our players gets roughed up by an opposing player no one comes and backs him up?? Quarterback gets his head ripped off..well lets just stand there and wonder if he is ok ...

Where in the hell is the toughness at?? Sticking together and having the other teams know they arent going to get way with roughing up their teammates??

God now I'm depressed..the coach and team are soft..and it starts with the tough guy Pettine. ugh...I'm going to go watch Its a Wonderful Life..and leave the football stuff alone for a while

Merry Christmas everyone.

FBHO71

I don't want to build the team around the HC - but I have come around to keeping Pettine. I think he hasn't been given a fair shot to coach to his ceiling - and while there are plenty of glaring areas of needed improvement - there is nothing to suggest that he can't improve. Farmer and O'Neil I don't want to see retained.

I guess it boils down to:

1] Keep em all - maybe O'Neil might go. But Farmer/Pettine get one more year.
2] Clean house and appoint a known - top GM (Ron Wolf-esqe) and let him run things. Maybe offer someone like Gruden or Saban an insane amount of cash.
3] Keep Pet - fire Farmer ... and then be 'stuck' with a compromise at GM. Doubtful you'd get a top flight guy to come in and steer the ship with the instruction that he isn't getting to change his HC etc. I don't even know who would be on the short list for GM in this scenario.

I don't see any scenario where Pettine goes and Farmer stays.

Pettine has been given a fair shot and there is nothing to suggest that Farmer or O'Neil can't improve either. It's easy to make blanket statements like that.

One option is Haslam could fire Farmer and replace him with Kuharich or whatever his name is. The groundwork has already been laid for it. Actually, if I were Haslam, and I made the decision to keep Pettine and fire Farmer, this is the direction I would go.

To do right doesn't take 15 years but it does take more than 2 when building from scratch.

For the Browns, it would have happen a lot sooner if Gilbert produced in equal fashion as Haden, and Haden played all year healthy.

First off there is a difference between having a DE or DT drop into zone zone coverage and having them cover a freaking receiver 1 on 1. Its stupid.

Whinning about Shannahan and Teddy was enough to make me want to join the wrist cutters club. It made the board miserable. We all have our rants but it was as bad as me and DJ ripping on mangini lol.

Being a fan of Johnny has nothing to do with any of the things I listed as issues with Pet. I know Johnny is about 80% likely to be gone if Pet leaves as any quality coach will likely want to draft or bring in his own QB. Just the way it is.

I honestly feel Pet dropped the ball this year and I underestimated how much influence Shanny had on Pet when it came to issues like clock management and practice intensity. I was wrong and you were right on Shanny. Flip is a gonna be a good OC and I dont have a lot of issues with his job this year but his inexperience combined with Pets incompetence has been a determent to the team.

YTown, there has been very very few games where the defense played with any passion and effort. how many shoulder nudges have we seen this year. It wasnt like they were going for a big hit and missed, it was just a soft nudge.

this team is soft and it became soft under Pet's watch. camp cupcake wasnt nonsense, it was because we wasted those important camp practices by having walk throughs and Pet's favorite "mental reps".

Watching the preseason games, it was obvious the same level of intensity wasnt there. Then ran over into the Jets game when the only 2 people that appeared to give a damn were the QBs. EVeryone else was sleep walking.

We are heading into our 15th game and very little has changed.