DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Infighting in Berea (from Scene so FWIW)

I am so tired of the crying, whining, hater, Negative Nancy comments. Calling someone those names does not win an argument.

Look................I don't care if you wanna trust Haslam and buy into what he is selling. That is your right.

However, I really wish people would stop telling me what I need to do. I think Haslam is a piece of crap con man and I don't trust him and I don't believe in his meddlesome ways.

That does not mean that I think you should agree w/me. It's my opinion and saying I am crying about it won't change a thing.

You don't know close you are to the truth.

yep.... we always have the best GMs.... it's everyone else fault

Then maybe he should have targeted them for real? Just drafted them. He didn't seem to concern with either of them.

the coach and gm will be glorified yes men for Jimmy while a lawyer and baseball guy make football decisions. Make me feel all warm and fuzzy.

We aren't going to have one if you look at past models. That is what makes this hard for people to grasp. Get past that and the set-up makes a lot of sense.

Some teams like the Patriots the HC has the final say over the roster but they have a scouting department, not every team is set up with the traditional GM/HC. I am opened minded to this new system, I think having the HC report to the owner and not a GM removes alot of the clashing ego syndrome that has plagued this team. Not saying any of it is going to work but can it be worse? I suppose we could go 1-15 next year....

I am not buying in to analytics because I just don't know how it would work in football. I know all the reasons it might not, and the reasons why it's so perfect for baseball.
But I'll bet DePodesta is aware of this skepticism, and could blow my mind with things I hadn't thought of. Whether that would be snake oil or the next big thing, I guess we'll see.
This structure would preclude a guy like Saban. no way he would do it. Gase might, though. I personally don't know about him - find it interesting that he gets so much credit for what Manning did in Denver (Manning having been pretty good even before that).
Another guy this might work with is Patricia, a big math whiz and egghead who might just want to coach and not control everything.
Vers, I know you don't see why we would trade one unproven coordinator for another, and I think Pettine got handed some lousy personnel ingredients, but he still took the team backwards. He was not "the" guy.

Two years is not enough, especially when you have a GM who made so many terrible moves.

Do you really think we could have kept Pet? We just read where both Farmer and Pettine were clashing with the FO. How much sense would that make? We need to have everybody on the same page. So tell me how keeping Pet here would solve the issues, when they couldn't get along to begin with? I think Farmer was a bigger problem than Pet was, but both of them had different ideas on how to go about building the Team, and it seems neither one had the same ideas as the FO. So we have to search for a HC that will be on board with the FO guys.

I don't believe that is accurate. Rather, we need to find a HC with whom the FO can get on board...

Okay, maybe I'm wrong, but that seems a lil backward. If the FO has a vision then they need to find a HC who shares the same vision, right?

I agree with this...they would have to hit on every pick and free agent signing to turn it around in 1yr and even then...

What I'll be looking for..is this team more physical then the team they are playing...do the players play as a group..do they stick up for one another on the field...if their QB gets his head ripped off do they just stand there looking like..man that mustve hurt...or is someone going to take a flag letting them know its not going to fly roughing up our players.

I'll be looking at clock management...basically Ill be looking for everything Pettine wasnt as a coach.

The same for the front office...and are they all aligned. Guess I'll have my answers soon enough...and Im hoping its not a repeat...if it is well..I have better things to do and will continue to do so...I'm hoping to catch the Browns fever again...and I think this set up is going to work..I hope/think

Yes, but the "vision" is so general that it will state no strategic nor technical aspects. The only reference in a vision statement would be something to the effect of winning a Super Bowl. I would expect that the FO will not hire a HC based on whether or not he runs a 4-3 or 3-4 defence...

No matter how many times things go down, some of you still act so incredulous when I bring up points like that. LOL

Let me try your style:

Do you really think firing head coaches every couple of years is smart? Tell me just how you know that everyone will be on the same page? Can you say for certain that the Haslams won't continue to interfere? Please tell me how overhauling the roster over and over again has led to past successes. So, continuing to search for answers when not changing the way you do business is counterproductive.

I would like continuity, and I agree that Farmer gave Pettine crappy players. I even question whether Pettine really clashed with the front office. More likely, he didn't like being blamed for what he rightly considered Farmer's mistakes.
Some of his on-field and clock management screw-ups are the growing pains of a young coach.
But all of that said, we went from 7-9 with hope to 3-13. He was a defense guy and our defense got even worse. There's not much merit in sticking with a guy who ain't the guy.

OK, you aren't buying into Analytics because you don't see how they work for football.. Fair enough.

I was fortunate enough (thanks Peen) to see a video with DePodesta as the keynote speaker..

He used an example. I'm going to play with it a little, but essentially the same as he talks about.

You have two QB's on two different teams.

QB1: Throws for 320 yards, 6 1st downs and two TD's and his team won.

QB2: Throws for 190 yards, 12 1st downs and two TD's and his team won.

Who's the better QB?

You'll hear the argument that the QB1 is the best because of yards. But wait, It's 3rd and 15 and QB1 gets you 14 yards....

Now, it's 3rd and 5 and QB2 gets you 6 yards!

Now which is better?

I'm not saying I know, but just think about it for a second.

This is what's going to happen which is why I'm sure when the new HC and GM are hired many will be asking "who?". Nobody with clout would sign on with the power structured like this.

There are so many variables to any football stat that very little insight can be taken from them.

Stats are facts. They tell the facts using numbers. What stats don't tell is how those facts came to be. Because of that, stats can be interpreted many ways. Sometimes to prove a positive, sometimes to prove a negative using the same stats. That leaves stats with very little real value towards evaluation.

What analytics attempts to do is to use stats to tell how those facts came to be by including all the variables they can in interpreting them. Some players have lesser stats but contribute to the team effort in providing positive gains. But some players have good stats but do little to contribute to the team.

"Garbage stats" is an example. Bad QBs on bad teams compile a great deal of garbage stats. Although those are positive stats, they in no way reflect the truth of that QBs worth to his team.

Analytics genuinely tries to sort this stuff out. It's not an end-all be-all but is still a good tool to help those making decisions.

From all of the many things written about the Browns situation, including the article written by their former in house writer, it seems like people were trying to coach from above ..... Scheiner,(sp) Haslam, maybe Sashi Brown, (though I don't remember if his name came up or not) and who knows who else, were trying to tell the coach what to do, who to play, and so on.

The Browns have 17 rookies and 1st year players, and 9 2nd year players on this team. That's almost half the active roster size. They lost veteran players to injury, including starters Haden, Bitonio, Greco, Hartline, Hawkins, Malcolm Johnson, and McCown .... starters all.

This is a very, very, young team, and it is almost certain that we will get younger next year, as veterans are cut loose or traded. It's hard to win with a very, very young team, especially when most of your veterans are sitting out, hurt..... and you are playing your 3rd string QB.

I think that this constant interference from those in higher/different offices, and by the owner, had to be incredibly counterproductive. Add in the lack of overall talent on the roster, and the circus that Manziel became, and man, it's hard to know how anyone could have done much better as coach, especially as a 2nd year head coach.

That's what Vers was saying about too many cooks in the kitchen. It looks, from the outside, like they just increased the cooks. But it's also possible that they're streamlining the alignment in a way that will keep everyone in their lane and out of other people's business.

We'll see.

But how much interference was actual interference? From what I saw this season, outside of injuries dictating who was available, Pettine played the guys he wanted to play.

Remember how we all talked about the defense needing to simplify because what they were trying to implement wasn't working? Chances are Sashi and Shiny were saying the same things, but with data to back it up.

Now if you are suggesting that Sashi and Shiny were the ones responsible for the healthy scratches somehow, leaving Pet to play with who they wanted.. that might be different. I liked Pet, but to me it looked like he had full control of who he played and what schemes we tried to run.

I understand his concern, but so far what do we have in terms of bringing people IN to the organization?

HC: To be decided on by Sashi, Depodesta, Jimmy and Dee. Doesn't seem unreasonable given a) that boards of people often decide on who to hire and b) given his status of answering only to Jimmy.

GM: HC, Sashi, and prob DePo hiring this one.

Other Coaches: I'd imagine that the HC is probably going to have most of the say on this, but with the stipulation that the OC and DC are also in "alignment".

Past that? When it comes to players: HC, GM, and Sashi signing off/handling the money. I think DePo will be too busy with developing the system, and both he and Sashi will be too busy with the other aspects of running the organization that aren't roster related, that they aren't going to be hand picking the players as much as people here think they are.

I mean, think about it this way: For arguments sake, let's say that they are going to be heavily involved with the roster. Why haven't we heard about what kind of offensive and defensive schemes they prefer? Usually when you hire a GM and/or HC, one of the first things mentioned about them is what kind of scheme they like to run. If they are going to have that much control, what sense does it make for the HC to only have to answer to Haslam?

Good post. My guess is that Podesta has already tested his methon for football. My guess is Sashi gave his input in team meeting about the draft board and his picks were better than Farmers, which is what opened Haslams eyes.

Something had to prompt Haslam to promote this guy. My guess is Brown said we should get this guy or that, was laughed at by Farmer, then Brown's selections proved to be the best selection. Haslam didn't just wake up one morning and decided to make these moves. Like the guy or not, Haslam is pretty adept at making logical decisions. He doesn't just fly off the cuff or throw darts.

Something convinced him this is the way to go. Something also convinced DePodesta to make this move, and money isn't the answer. He was pretty successful in baseball. He didn't make this move if he wasn't sure his methods translated to the NFL. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts the guy has run his metrics in several different sports to see if they worked.

Who wouldn't? Seriously, does anybody really think this guy hasn't run his system over other sports?

Ytown is rarely if ever wrong, but I think there was more talent and were more veterans, with more experience on this team, than your last post would suggest.

Go look at the roster on the Browns site. Sort the roster by experience. You will be shocked at all of the guys who are either rookies, or 2nd year players. I was. I knew we had a young team, but this was a really young team with a few veteran players.

That may be true Ytown,(i'm not going to check, I trust you) but the key to that is regardless of Years in the league, we lacked IMPACT players. We had too few of them.

If the story is true ; it will all stem week ownership !

Or, it's an owner that doesn't meddle.. Meaning, he let them alone.

Not defending the guy, but he gets beat on by some for sticking his nose in and by some for, well, not sticking his nose in.

Do you want a hands on owner or a hands off owner.

I saw how stubborn Pettine was and how stupid he was to realize his way didn't work and his pal, O'neil and Farmer was just horrible. Brown and Podesta can't do any worse since 1999, so what the heck! Go for it! The real question is how long are they going to be given to do something???

And a coach who supported them (Gilber).

Well, publicly anyway. Maybe things like Gilbert were the hot buttons that started the infighting. Dunno

A year, maybe 2 before Jimmy blows it all up again.

I don't expect that it will be blown up again. It certainly will be tweaked to some extent...

Hang on to the dream.

"Let's hang on...". (The Four Seasons, and no, I won't bother to post the video).

No Jones was not fired.

No analytics will not be used like that, never have.