DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum As the Cavs' World Turns

Might as well start another thread for the soap opera of the Cavs' season.

--I appreciated what Collins said about all the drama surrounding Cleveland. He's right. It's more about drama than basketball.

--I applaud Van Gundy, Breen, and Jackson for their honesty last night. Perhaps that will open up some eyes on this board? Or, perhaps those people turned a deaf ear to their comments because they simply don't want to hear it.

--We went from having our best ball movement game of the year against the Clips to a bowel movement of a game against the Bulls.

--Man, I just loved hearing Lue talk about holding LBJ accountable and hearing LeBron say it's about playing hard and not wins and losses and THEN........in the very first game after the change.......watching The Chosen One walk back on defense several times. LOL........it's almost unbelievable.

--Loved those sets that Lue drew up.

--The funniest thing of the night was seeing how Lue needed this huge stuffed cushion to elevate him above everyone else on the bench. Man, what would Shakespeare say?

--It was also funny when LeBron took it from him. He must have said: "I'm the King here."

--The problem w/the Cavs wasn't Blatt. The problem w/the Cavs is that they have selfish players and LeBron has allowed all the talk about him being the greatest to cloud his perception of how things should work.

the team was tired.

why do i say that? we are one of the slowest teams in the NBA as far as pace. Lue said on the pot game conference that he pushing pace, which is why the starters wanted to sub out early, because they aren't in the shape to run that just yet. that stuff is gonna take a a month or so to get right.

i don't know if blatt was the true problem, but he definitely didn't help. i mentioned in the other thread how blatt almost cost us a playoff win, TWICE, and if it wasn't for lebron, there's a good chance we would've got beat my chicago in the 2nd round.

lebron took us to the finals. not blatt. lebron won us 2 games in the finals, not blatt.

blatt got out coached, his rotations were terrible. he continues to get out coached against the top teams in this league.



we are 4-4 against teams with a .600 or better record.

we are 0-2, 0-1 against the teams we will most likely see in the finals.

you wanna talk about the ball movement against the clippers? we are worlds better talent wise than the clippers. we always beat the clippers. and we aren't gonna see the clippers in the finals.

i don't care about the other teams, i care about GS and SA, and blatt gets out coached by them.

so even though blatt could've been good, the fact is that the GM, the players, and according to polls, almost 80% of the fan base won't miss blatt.

that being said, if we don't, at the very least, push to game 7 of the finals, than EVERYTHING falls directly on lebron, and he won't have anybody to blame anymore, unless of course we get hit with the injury bug again.

wait and see, it was only one game against a division rival.

Lue is gonna use these games to finally get some sort of rotation down. the rotation sucked last night because we just transitioned instantly to a new coach.


however, one thing that bothers me deeply, and this has been going on since last year, is our free throw shooting. jesus...we leave so many points off the board.

Perhaps that is the problem w/the Cavs.

most likely not.

You have such a great sense of humor.

hit me up after my pot conference in 20 minutes.

This team is failing at the simple things. Two for example, wide open shots and free throws.

I watched the game last game to see the new coach's debut, but I saw the same product on the court. Comments remain the same, no way we compete with the teams that actually matter. We can only clean up the scum.

All JMO

I agree with your opening post. I'll add...

--When LeBron entered the league, he was the ultimate team player. Somewhere along the way that changed.

--The team does Kevin Love no favors at all. He's just kind of floating around out there and mainly scores on plays where he was the third or fourth option. In turn, Love does himself no favors either. When they do run a play for him he passes it even when he's open.

--I thought the Lue cushion thing was funny also.

--Griffin's interview with Salters was pretty unimpressive. In summary, he made the change because guys weren't smiling after wins. Now there's some analytics for you.

--The gap between GS / SA and the Cavs is large.

--#clevelandchampionshipdroughtcontinues

Some comments too ...

-- Maybe there was something to the "This was Griff's decision, not the players"? The players certainly played like they were a little shell shocked from the events of the past few days and not a team that finally got what they were pleading for.

-- I thought the "offense" didn't look too bad to start. They moved the ball. They got open looks. The just couldn't throw a ping pong ball through a hula hoop. Free throws were just nuts too. As bad as we got blown out, if we had made all our "freebees", we would of won by 7. So, I wonder how much of that goes back to them being a little shell-shocked? They didn't go Le-ISO until very late in the 2nd quarter, and by then they were missing everything.

-- Watching the pressers and game, Lue really seems over-matched for a head-coaching gig so far. I hope he settles, but for now, he just seems like the big-brother everyone put in charge. He was already making excuses for them playing poorly: "We were too out of shape to run up-tempo". Really? In January?

-- I wonder if this is "Lebron's Grand Plan", since everyone loves these mafia conspiracy theories. Let Lue go in and fail, and then demand the Front Office bring in Mark Jackson when everything falls apart in the playoffs. At that point, wouldn't the FO just "forget" to offer Lebron a new contract and let him walk?

Hmmmmmmm..........not sure if I agree w/those takes, but I like how you presented them and it's good information because it makes us all think.

[quote]-- Watching the pressers and game, Lue really seems over-matched for a head-coaching gig so far. I hope he settles, but for now, he just seems like the big-brother everyone put in charge. He was already making excuses for them playing poorly: "We were too out of shape to run up-tempo". Really? In January?
/quote]

Amen. If I'm paying you damn near $20mil a year to bounce a spherical rubber bag of air up and down a stretch of hard wood floor with the intent of causing it to pass through a metal ring-your ass ought to be able to run a marathon or two a week.

That's definitely the impression I took away from last night. Until yesterday, I've not heard Lue speak in depth much in public, but it sure seemed like he had the attention and respect of the players on the sideline as an assistant. I guess I was expecting more of a Huejack persona in the pressers.

What I noticed last night was we kept missing shots and the fee-throw shooting was atrocious. In my opinion we could have one better without
LBJ.

I'm not a basketball fan so be kind.

Last night was honestly how I thought it'd, I didn't account for the 3rd grader level of FT shooting, but everything else being a cluster i figured. There will be a transition periods as players test what they can get away with on the floor. How Lue handles it will be important. I've said before, I think the firing was stupid, and everyone knows I was not a Blatt fan, but I also understood the position he was put in. To be honest, I had more issues with Griffin, I think he's a phony to be honest, Lebron built this team, and his predecessor gave him the resources to make some additional trades to get players Lebron wanted and Blatt wanted. I will still say the Mosgov trade was dumb, especially since there is talks of trading him before the deadline. After you just gave up 2 firsts for him. This team doesn't have the right pieces where they need them and thats his job, If you aren't going to play mo williams, then you shouldn't have signed him, same thing with RJ, You should have brought in defensive specialists then. I'm sure he hoped it work and a championship coach would make it work. But I think Griff gets too much credit and Blatt is pretty much the fall guy.

I've said, I'm not a Blatt NBA HC fan, but the guy knows basketball, more than probably 95% of the coaches currently doing it, its just the business and ego massaging side of the NBA that he struggled with. They had to know that would be the part he would struggle with the most, thats why they surrounded him with highly paid ex-HC assistants. So the more I think about it, it looks alot like a coup. But onward and upwards. I never saw anything from Lue and what he's responsible for look good enough to warrant being the HC, especially since he was the assistant HC anyways, so apples to apples, this is as much his fault as blatt. We just have to many gaps, bad process and lack fundamentals to compete at a SAS level. I think instead of giving these millionaires days off from practice, they should be on the floor everyday. I don't buy for a minute they are out of shape in the end of january.

I don't blame Blatt. He wasn't signed to deal with what he had to deal with. And LBJ has proven to be a VERY difficult person to manage ... basically because he's been enabled to feel that he's above anyone else (rightly or wrongly).

I've started to sour on LeBron to be honest. Since he returned I think his attitude has changed.

So Lue suggested that Blatt should coach the All-Star game, because he's the one that really earned it. People are flipping out, thinking that's "insulting". I think it would be funny, as you might get to see: Lebron James - DNP - Coach's Decision.

Lebron=Coach killer with diminishing skills

Wow!! If this is even in the least bit true, I have lost a lot of respect for LBJ. You can take him out of the GOAT discussions right this second. Michael Jordan would never, EVER intentionally lose games or take games off. Hell, the guy drop like 61 points with the freaking flu....

Great video Candy, and it echos what I was saying after the Warriors game. Our problem wasn't coaching, rotations, Mosgov, Delly, bench players not acting like all-stars ... it's our "Big 3" not acting like super-stars.

Listening to Lue speak about the team, and its conditioning, i wonder if that's why they "pound nails" too often, and are inconsistent shooting the basketball.

So much of basketball is in the legs, and if a team is poorly conditioned, they are going to have problems. I look at a guy Like Thompson, and he always has his legs. He is a ball of energy. However, it seems like some other guys do not. I look at the game against Golden State, and it seemed like they just ran circles around us.

I think that improving conditioning and setting rotations will go a long way towards making this team more capable of beating teams like San Antonio and Golden State.

Excellent video. Thanks for posting.

It echoes what I have been saying all year. LeBron plays like that in almost every game, not just those handful of games.

I have a few more points:

--There is a poster who says that Blatt didn't get us to the Finals last year and that LeBron did. I agree that Blatt didn't get us to the Finals and the players did, however, how do you not blame LeBron and the other players when things aren't going right and put all of that blame on Blatt? That makes zero sense.

--Another poster talks about conditioning as if it will be a cure-all. Sounds like another manufactured excuse to me. Whose fault is it if a player is not in condition?

--I look for the Cavs' defense to stay about the same, but for their offense to become even more erratic because we will lose any semblance of the motion offense and it's going to come down to if they are hot or not.

--I was watching the pre-game of the Warriors game the other night. Kerr was coming back and the home-team announcers were talking about how great it is for the coaching staff when your superstar [Curry, who was doing his usual pregame ball-handling drills] buys into what the coaching staff is asking for and then helps by echoing those things w/his teammates.

--Btw.......earlier that same night, LeBron was practicing new handshakes w/his teammates. Later, Curry...as always..was doing his ball handling drills hours before the game.

--It annoys me to no end how LeBron is always talking about playing harder, yet he is always the guy not running back on defense and working hard on the defensive end to get stops.

--Love and Kyrie probably would have increased their effort had LeBron set a good example. However, both are soft players that do not want to work on the defensive end.

--The problem w/the Cavs wasn't coaching. The problem w/the Cavs is that they did not accept coaching and they have allowed drama to become a bigger story than their actual play on the court.

--I despise the attitude of LeBron. I also feel Love has been guilty of the same types of things as LeBron. Kyrie has never wanted to play defense. He likes to dribble and dazzle the crowd, but never really understood what it takes to win. I think he could have been led in the right direction if LeBron had tutored him properly, however, following LeBron's lead has reduced Kyrie to just another talented guy that doesn't get what it takes to win.

--I just can't root for this team right now. They could win it all and I still wouldn't celebrate. It's like being rich, but knowing that you made your money by doing illicit things. Nah, I will stick w/the old-fashioned way. Earn your money--and respect--the old-fashioned way by doing things right. Effort, integrity, and honor. The Cavs lack all three.

Idk guys, I think I'm anti-Cleveland sports until... I'm not sure until what. Coaching fired right in the middle of a championship run. Your stars players are under playing. Your new coach ripped the conditioning on the team publicly and listening to his pressers just seems outta his realm. Highest paid assistant, we didn't have a choice it seemed about Lou.

Team can't play consistently, can't play as a team and for the love of beer, why the F can't we make simple free throws? I feel like I could go on, but I think it's better to stop watching Cleveland sports. Need some 'away' time.

It's up to the coaches to have the players conditioned to the pace and scheme they want them to play.

Maybe blatt likes slow ball, the players were in shape when it comes to that. But the quicker pace that the new coach wants to run, now he players have to get conditioned for that.


There's a reason nba and NFL teams have strength and conditioning coaches.

LOL.......you are a hoot. Anyone who has ever played basketball knows it is a MUST that you be in pristine physical condition.

yeah conditioning is one thing you have to have to be effective at BOTH ends. I learned this the hard way. I usually play in my full contact football league at about 235-240lbs, but immediately after that is winter ball and I tried one year to play at that weight..good god i was asking for a sub after 4 minutes. People underestimate conditioning and while it may be a problem for the Cavs, i don't think its the biggest. I think having a selfish egomaniac that we've built the team around is.

if you've ever watched a blatt euro team, he does not like slow ball, in fact he's the complete opposite. He runs a ball movement motion offense that requires guys sprinting side to side off motion..It was Lebron who slowed the game because he's too old to run that and be effective

Honestly, this is almost as depressing as "The Decision". At least when he quit on the team then, he ran off to Miami. Now it feels like he quit on the team and he's still playing for us.

I was thinking about that this morning. You know what's kinda crazy............I actually defended LeBron when he was considering leaving and even when he left. He was a FA and as we both know all too well, professional sports are a business. I didn't like the way he announced his decision, but I didn't think he was the devil like other people did.

That move soured me on the NBA quite a bit. What disturbed me is when I later read that LBJ, Wade, and Bosh actually collaborated playing on one team. Then, I got so excited when LeBron announced he was coming back. I researched Blatt and thought man.......LeBron would be great in Blatt's offense and when we got Love.........I thought he was the perfect fit.

It just never worked out the way that it could have. It's like another body blow for a Cleveland fan like me. The Cavs might win it all, but I don't think I would really enjoy it. Times change, people change, so one never knows........but, right now, I am at a point similar to that point in life referred to as "innocence lost." Things are never quite the same after that.

You have to be conditioned to play at the pace your opponent might want to play.

And you are a professional athlete, you have one job. No excuse to not be in the best shape possible to do that job.

We live in " an excuse society " No stands up and takes like a man anymore ! It's ALWAYS someone else fault .. Blame Game America

no, it's part of scheme.

i don't expect anybody to agree, but understand what i'm saying.

it's funny because we say how our ol isn't STRONG enough for straight up man to man blocking, and they did better with finesse scheming like the ZBS.

so why can't the same be true for NBA players?

the players are in shape that any athlete is in. but come on, pace and such is entirely different.

i can make the reference because as athletes, it's the same. the broncos run a methodical offense. the eagles ran(suppose to be) a fast pace offense.

you can't take a peyton manning led team and expect them to be instantly good at running a chip kelly type scheme, because the players aren't conditioned in practice to do that.

the cav's team since lebron came into this league has been a slow paced, ball control, defensive mindset team. running a fast pace GS type gameplan takes time and practice to develop and get conditioned for it's going to be a couple months before the players are use to that style.

to Vers:

i might not be all world athletes like you guys act like on this board, but i have played basketball and football in high school as a starter. so i understand the basics of physical fitness.

Leadtheway, i'm most surprised at your statement because as a fellow soldier, and you being a ranger, you guys operate at a way different pace than other soldiers. most soldiers are physically fit, but the pace of rangers and special forces is entirely different, and takes a good while to get use to.

i'm not saying we are nba athletes, but the physical conditioning, especially in the elements, is similar.

The difficult thing in coaching seems to be developing trust and commitment in the players. While Blatt's offense is absolutely beautiful, it ended up being meaningless if he couldn't develop a rapport and trust with the players. That goes both ways...The players are jerks for passive aggressively not following the system. But you need a coach who can deal with those personalities and get them to work in a cohesive organized fashion. This should have been sorted out off the court and nipped in the bud long ago.

Sometimes personalities just aren't a good match. I think it is good to get rid of Blatt if the players simply won't listen to reason and run the system. It's not fair to Blatt and things could have worked out, but the talent is there and if they refused to work with Blatt there is nothing to be done about it.

Lol I never said i was out of shape, I don't consider 6' 235 and 8% BF out of shape, my point was what can be considered in shape is still out of shape when it comes to the sport of basketball. I can still run 6-7 min miles and ruck for days, just the up and down and change of direction and jumping etc, its a whole different ball game and uses an entirely diff. set of muscles.

i never claimed you was out of shape, i just asked if you understood the different dynamic of conditioning for different paces.

You are an excuse maker for LeBron and the other turds.

Yeah, it's Blatt's fault for them not being in shape.

Candy,
Let me say I liked the video. But what it leaves out is that Blatt made ALOT of mistakes last year. The playoff game mistake was just one of many. The reason Tyrone Lue was paid so much was because Blatt was learning the NBA on the job!!!

TO me, after last year, players, including Lebron could not trust the decisions that Blatt making. If we listen to that video, its evident. Yes, Lebron gets vocal with the other players because he is the only one that has WON anything! SO he knows what it takes. Blatt has not won anything in the NBA. And that Euro-league crap dont count!

Maybe if he called out his stars, he would have gotten more respect. Once you start compromising, you loose respect. IF the players don't respect you, time for a change!!

What? I didn't blame blatt at all for that. They players were fine in slow pace ball.

But luo wants to play a different pace, so the players need to change their conditioning.

Stop reading what you want to read.

ok then..lol, yeah I understand the different dynamics of conditioning, as the conditioning really is predicated on the repeatable activity. Take basketball, you really are exerting on all planes of the court, you're running up and down, sided to side and vertically as well as using short explosive burts to do things like change direction, box out, obtain position and rebound, so you take those in a half court set and those things slow down considerably, if you can force teams to play half court the game gets slower and conditioning is less of an issue. You speed the game up and play the full court, pushing the ball every opportunity, constant chaos from a movement standpoint all the while doing the short burts in more rapid succession really can wear you down. So for me its true what Lue is saying somewhat, but my argument was, to me it didn't look like they were playing any faster than we were under blatt. With uptempo really the only ones that should be struggling are the bigs, Love and Mos will struggle at uptempo, a guy like TT/Andy will thrive..the rest of the guys 1-3 shouldn't have any issues playing any pace.

Ok, we're cool. I see what you are saying, not that they can't do it eventually, just that they aren't prepared to do it now.. I'll give you that.

I will also give you that our roster isn't exactly composed of "get out and run" type of guys...

But you can run a faster paced offense with crisper screens, more ball movement, etc... "faster pace" doesn't necessarily have to mean get out and fast break every time you touch the ball. It just means one person doesn't stand there and dribble it until the shot clock his :06 then he decides he's going to drive or chuck up a 3...

See, this is where I think we struggle with the elite teams.. GS is young, they move the ball, they are quick, and they shoot lights out.. San Antonio is a bit older, very methodical, very precise, less (but more efficient) movement, and they get a lot of high quality shots.

We are older and less athletic than GS... but we are not nearly as precise and efficient as San Antonio...

I know by the metric of offensive efficiency our stat was pretty good.. but that stat is built on the fact that we are just so much more talented than most of the teams in the east that we can stand around and do whatever we want and we decide to go, they can't stop us... that doesn't work against the teams we will see if we get to the finals.