DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2015 NFL Season NFL Post Season 2015 Conference Title Weekend

I dunno, the Denver defense did stop the Patriots. Barely but they did stop them.

Cam just makes throwing the football successfully look like a little child throwing a whiffle ball. He has such a fine touch and is accurate. It appears to be effortless for him.

Unbelievable, did you see that guy fall out the stands?

(if I'm Arians I'm benching Palmer now, even though the game is over)

It really is painful to watch quality football that isn't wearing Orange & Brown isn't it?

YES, PALMER INTERCEPTION AGAIN!

I admit I had my doubts about Arizona winning this game but I sure didn't see them losing like this.

7 turn overs for Zona... Wow.

Denver's D is real good but I'm not sure if they are going to be good enough. The Panthers made this look easy tonight and I can't help but think an aging Manning is going to be no match.

Well, if it weren't for Denver's D making timely stops it would most likely be the Pats going to another one.

I thought Arizona was a better team than that, they looked like that had no business being out there. It was embarrassing.

So...Derek Anderson gets to the superbowl, eh?

Forgot he was even still playing! How 'bout that?

And T.J. Ward

Any word on T.J.'s injury?

Sucks that the Broncos won. I hope carolina destroys them in the super bowl.

The missed extra point was one of the factors. Belichik going for it on 4th down twice ultimately lost the game for the Pats. Take those 2 field goals, and they only need a field goal on the last drive instead of a TD + 2 point conversion. Brady made some plays on the last drive. I was hoping I was watching "the drive" unfold on the Broncos.

And Jordan Norwood

And Fozzy Whitaker.

It may have just been me, but I thought Manning threw a lot of ugly balls in the game. Right now, I think Carolina rolls.

Derek was never a Brown, but his older brother Adam Hoppel was. If you remember I talked about Adam a lot when he signed with the Browns. He didn't last long as he just wasn't strong enough to make it as a defensive tackle in the NFL. I know Derek, I know his family,I know his real mother, and the kid deserves all the good things he is getting now.

If you want to know more about Derek please read this.

http://www.nflplayerengagement.com/life/articles/this-wolfe-wont-cry/

j/c:

I have some thoughts on the games:

--We argued over in the Pure Football forum about the importance of the OL and defensive pressure. I wonder if anyone noticed how the biggest differences in yesterday's games was the amount of pressure on the qbs?

--Brady was under pressure all day long. Denver only rushed 3 or 4 guys most of the game, yet they got instant pressure. All those guys in coverage took away the quick passing game. He got killed.

--Cam had all day to throw. Clean pockets. No one near him. It should be interesting to see if Carolina's great OL can slow down Denver's great pass rushers.

--I would have kicked the FG when the Pats went for it on 4th down and they were stopped short. I think getting a FG, and a TD w/an extra point is more likely than a 4th down conversion, a TD, and a 2 pt. conversion, especially considering there was still quite a bit of time on the clock.

--I don't really care for Cam Newton. He comes across as fake to me. He seems so insincere and this "HEY, LOOK AT ME!!!" persona rubs me the wrong way.

--Carson Palmer has had a choker label for quite some time, and man, his performance yesterday was one of the worst of all-time.

--Anyone else notice the importance of the LBers in the playoff games? We all know you need a very good qb. That is a given. Some of us recognize the importance of the OL on one side of the ball and pass rushers on the other side. But, I think it's been pretty obvious that excellent LBer play has been huge in the success of these teams.

I really thought the Carolina and Arizona game would be better. Boring unless you were a Panthers fan.

It sure looks like Cam's teammates love him..

Somehow, I knew that the least important point of the seven I made would be the first--and most--replied to.

Yep, the biggest difference was the pressure on the QB's. I've never seen Brady have that much pressure on him ever in a game. Great job by the Denver D!

Yes, it will be very interesting to see if Denver can do that same sorta thing to Cam Newton.

Yeppers, Cam seems like an egomaniac, boisterous as all hell. Definitely a "look at me" personality. I wish we had someone as good as him. Man-oh-man-oh-man! Then - and maybe just then? I could put up with that?

And yet they almost still won. Brady is absolutely incredible, shows the importance of an elite QB as well.


LOVE Cam. He is a ball of energy, his teammates love him - you can tell he loves playing football. Wish Johnny was like him. MVP this year hands down, with Brady a close second.

I enjoyed it when he grabbed the Seattle 12th man flag and stomped on it - don't bring that crap into an away stadium. I'd love for a Browns player to grab those damn yellow hankies when the stoolers are in town and stomp them into oblivion.


He looked awful the previous week too - he just is not good in big games.

It's the only one I find odd. The rest of it, I'm ok with.

Of our healthy starting 5, which OL at the same position from the ten guys playing in the Super Bowl would you take over our guy?

Exactly. The players, the fans, and the kids love him.

I hope he wins the SB.

I know you're not asking me but I'd consider Trai Turner over John Greco.

I am not sure what point you are trying to make?

Cam's biggest problem is that sometimes the ball sails on him... he's always had that tendency. I don't know if it's footwork or just getting too excited but when he misses, he usually misses high... and those balls get picked a lot.

Oh well, I'm happy, all of the teams I wanted out.. are out. I won't mind seeing Peyton get one and ride off... I won't mind seeing Cam and the Panthers get their first... and most of all, I will enjoy watching two teams that both play tremendous defense...

I'm not sure about how what point I was going to make affects your answer to the question, but since you asked...

It seems like this started from rastanplan essentially saying the impact of high caliber offensive linemen was overrated, citing how many probowl appearances and high draft picks are on our line while we haven't won squat. Obviously most people disagreed with him.

You countered by saying the playoff games have been decided in the trenches, then evolved into OL & Front 7.

Now, I'm completely on board with the idea that you need top-end defenders at all three levels of the defense (as both teams in the super bowl do) but I partially agree with rastanplan on this regarding the OL. Carolina and Denver are trotting out bottom-half of the league (being generous) left tackles, which is considered the most important position on the OL by most people. Yet, they both are in the super bowl.

Here are the resources (from LT to RT) that the Super Bowl teams have invested in the offensive line (for players who are starting) compared to us.

Denver: #70 (2007), FA, #207, FA, #95

Carolina: FA, UDFA, #59, #92, PS/FA

Cleveland: #3, #35, #21, FA, #37

Granted, Denver had two left tackles go down at the beginning of the season, but they didn't really impact the team's performance this year, which is kind of the point.

I am in complete agreement that we need to improve our personnel and scheme on the defensive side of the ball, but I don't think we can improve our team's outcome by doing anything to our OL (except maybe coaching them better.)

I posted before the playoffs started that 11 of the top 12 scoring defenses in the NFL this year made the playoffs. The other team in the top 12 (NYJ) finished 10-6 but lost out on tiebreakers to Pitt. The only exception was Washington (#17 -- league median). Houston though, despite having one of the best front 7s and best offensive lines in the league, was smoked in the playoffs because they don't have a quarterback.

Now, let's look at the quarterbacks. In the Championship Games, you have three #1 overall picks (Manning, Palmer, and Newton) and maybe the best QB to play in the last 30 years (Brady.)

We haven't even talked about the Cowboys yet in this post.

So I guess the point is there is a definite saturation point on how much benefit you can get from improving your OL. Your season can go to crap pretty quickly if you have a bad one, but it's not going to make a huge difference in your record whether your OL is decent or if your OL is very good. I'm reminded of a customer satisfaction chart/concept of "must-haves" and "pleasers." The OL meets a "must-have" curve, where your performance can drop precipitously if it is bad, but will not improve a ton once you hit a pretty early saturation point in talent, whereas having the right QB can take you to the top.

I looked it up because I couldn't remember. It's called a "Kano Analysis" chart.



I see QB on the "exciters" trend, defenders and offensive weapons on the "satisfiers" trend, and offensive line on the "dissatisfiers" trend. It's not a perfect model, but my brain keeps drawing associations to this chart when I think of the importance of these groups. That is not to say that offensive line is not important, because it can rapidly kill your team if yours is bad, but just that you're not going to continue to improve your team much by adding talent at the position, and from a practical standpoint the benefit saturates pretty quickly.

JMO based on what I've seen from the effect offensive line talen has made on winning, especially winning in the playoffs.

I didn't say they got to the super bowl despite their OL. I said their OL was good enough to get them to the Super Bowl but they were nothing great. They were just good enough to not put them on that steep cliff downward. My point was they weren't going to be that much better if they improved their OL further, and that they would probably be worse if they decommitted some resources from QB or defense to improve that OL.

So would you agree that a team with an average OL and a great defense is going to be better than a team with a great OL and an average defense?

*edit* for a more fair comparison, would you rather have a team with an average OL and great front 7 or a great OL and average front 7?

This doesn't happen in a vacuum. Why do we have nothing else? Part of the reason is we've been picking a lot of OL. All those resources I listed didn't even include our #19 overall pick from last year in Erving. Obviously part of the reason has been poor choices in general.