DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... 3rd Rock Icon Dies; Paul Kantner, Jefferson Airplane

I agree with others that classic rock is not dead by any means. Not every kid today is Bieber/Katy Perry kid.

As for the radio, I think everything is much too commercialized with rigid formatting anymore. I'm a kid of the 90's and I remember listening to WENZ 107.9 The End all the time. The DJs were free to introduce new bands and different types of Rock music that you may not have heard otherwise. It was a great station for anyone that remembers.
Now, it seems you have to turn to the internet to find a lot of today's good music.

I'll never forget when they went off the air and played REM - It's the end of the World - on a 24 hr loop.

Anyways, not to get off topic from the 60's and 70's music, but wanted to add that sidebar about radio in general, imo.

Here's an old commercial for 107.9 for good measure.

Which is not what I said, but I guess that it is more important to you, for some reason, to completely misstate and misrepresent my position. This seems to be a trend for you, that you take what someone says, then exaggerate it to the nth degree, and mock them for this created position that you assign them. I really don't understand where you get some of the things you say. I never once said that "no one listens to rock anymore". Not once. I invite you to go back and read what I actually said, not what you have imagined I said. There is a significant difference.

Man, that was my favorite radio station. I drove to and from work between Youngstown and Kent, and would pick up/drop 107.9 right about the time I hit route 80 at 46. I loved that station.

I remember the day they played REM for the whole day, and I wondered what was going on.

The next day I tuned in, as usual, only to hear rap. *puke* Evidently they were bought be a new owner, who wanted a rap station there. Bleh. The End was a great station, and played all kinds of great rock. *sigh*

Another thing to consider about radio... it's dying. The younger generations probably don't even use the radio all that much. Hell I barely listen to it at all anymore. It's either an audio book or I'm streaming music through my phone.

Rock music is alive, its just "harder" to find.

That is pretty awesome.

Yeah.......not too many people I know listen to regular radio stations anymore. People have playlists on their phones, listen to Pandora, have satellite radio, etc.

I also want to add that good music transcends generations and w/stands the test of time. I enjoy quite a bit of music that came before I was born. Yeah, people aren't going to listen to Tony Orlando and Dawn [not that that was ever rock...lol] but there will always be a lot of people who enjoy listening to Pink Floyd, for one example.

I agree... but you already knew I would. We've talked too many times about music for you to not have predicted my take on all of this.

Good music is good music. And good music lasts.

It's a funny quirk about the job I do: folks who think of orchestra music envision guys like Beethoven, Mozart, Bach and Stravinsky as typical of the times in which they flourished. That is a misconception. The truth is: they were the very best of the very best... and their greatness wasn't acknowledged until their compositions stood the test of time and deep academic scrutiny. There were hundreds, thousands of other writers doing the same thing at the same time.

Trust me: there's a reason we lionize Mozart, and regard his 'competitor' Salieri as an historical afterthought.

Good music gets remembered forever.
Bad music is quickly forgotten.

But here's the little catch in that equation: at the time, they all share stylistic similarities on the surface. That similarity is enough to garner both good and bad music equal status in the ears of shallow-listening contemporaries.

Think of it this way: both Eric Clapton and Ted Nugent are known as rock guitarists/band leaders. In the Music World, one is going to be remembered long after the other is forgotton. On the surface, they both do the same thing. The difference lies in HOW they do it.

____________________


To my Dawg YTown: I respectfully disagree with your take... and hope that you'll reconsider, after I tell you this:

The 'forgotten music' that you speak of hasn't been forgotten at all. On the contrary, it's done just the opposite. It's been absorbed into the fabric of society... and has become part of the soundtrack of everyday modern life.

Tell me: who needs a degree in Musicology to recognize: "dit-dit-dit daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa [break] dit-dit-dit daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.....?"

They may not know who wrote it, but I can tell you: any American child- from East CLE hoodkids to silver-spoon Westport, CN offspring with a TV in his home knows the opening to Beethoven 5.

Music from every era is retained throughout time... but only the best from each finds itself in 'heavy rotation' during current times.

Classical music has always been used heavily in movies. (Wagner's 'Ride of the Valkyries' in Apocalypse Now, Barber's 'Adagio For Strings' in Platoon, and the ultimate 'chick flick' "Somewhere In Time" featured Rachmaninov's Rhapsody on a Theme by Paganini. And now, music of the 60's 70's and 80's are finding their way into mainstream TV and everyday life..


CBS made a franchise (C.S.I.) featuring music of The Who in their intro theme music.

Current Hip Hop stars have sampled riffs from Funk stars of the 60's/70's, as well as old 40's-50's recordings of Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie.

In the 70's, a super popular TV show ("Happy Days") used music of the '50's to advance current social and human-interest storylines.

Nope.
'Good Music' is eternal... as long s there is someone willing to hear it, capture it, and share it with others.


As a result, we continue to see brisk sales of Dark Side of the Moon, Sgt. Pepper, Cream, Hendrix, etc. These are new consumers... peeps who are now buying their GRANDparents' music.

There is more I could say on this subject, but I wanted to get this out.

Music does become the soundtrack of life, but just as different movies have different soundtracks, so do different lives.

Unfortunately, lives end, and music often ends with the passing of the generation that loved it. We all want to think that the things we do on this earth will live forever in one form or another, but it just doesn't happen. A slice will survive, but much of the less well known music will simply be gone, lost to time.

I continue to think back to the artists of my mom's generation, and struggle to remember any but the most iconic songs of those artist. Maybe that's the word I should use ..... some of the most iconic songs will be remembered in one form or another, but most will be relegated to history, and forgotten. The biggest, most popular, and especially songs that are used in other forms of media will survive longer, but I truly doubt that the music of my youth will be of much interest to (largely) anyone but members of my generation, and maybe a few younger people who enjoy it. However, most will just fade from memory and possibly even fade from existence.

It is human nature that we don't remember every piece of minutiae we are exposed to. We even forget some things we think of as important at the time they happened. We couldn't possibly function if we did remember it all. We remember the biggest, the best, and the most important to us. It's funny .... I was talking to my mom the other day, and something from my childhood came up. I remembered something that happened that really stuck with me, and make me bust out laughing in recalling it. My mom didn't remember it at all. Then she brought up something else, and I couldn't remember it at all.

When I was in 3rd grade, the girl next door to me loved to alternately torment me, or want to kiss me. I can remember her 1st name, but not her last name, or even what she looked like. My best friend at that time was a kid named Lynn. I can remember what his house looks like, but not his face. These were more important to me that a song, and memories still fade. It's natural, and we can do nothing to avoid it. We prioritize things in our lives, and other things take up more and more importance. We remember the songs that are associated with an important event in our lives. For me, one such song is a song called "When she cries", or something like that. I can only hear the chorus .... that a girl I loved many years ago really liked. The last time I ever saw her, the darn song was on the radio in the car I took for a demo. Every time I heard that song, for years, I thought of her. I hadn't thought of her, or that song, for probably a decade or more, till just now. Memory is associative, and when we have nothing to anchor those memories, they fade.

I mean, quick, name every Rolling Stones song you can think of. I bet most people miss half or more of their biggest songs. Name Aerosmith's biggest songs. How about Bad Company. Styx. How about The Who? Genesis? King Crimson? Deep Purple? The Talking Heads?

How about Emerson Lake and Palmer? I bet most people don't remember anything by them, and maybe only remember that they had a unique, bizarre sound, and were way ahead of their time. Quick, name me one Clash song, beside "London Calling". How about Sly and the Family Stone. I had a couple of their cassettes when I was a young adult ... and can only remember "Family Affair" from among their music.

How about The Ramones. That was a hugely important punk band. I bet most can't remember more than 1 or 2 of their songs.

How about The Babies? Supertramp? Uriah Heap? Blue Oyster Cult? ("Don't Fear The Reaper" doesn't count) How about Cheap Trick? Blondie? ELO? Chicago? I bet most people overlook/forget about over half of their songs. They were incredibly proficient, yet hos often are they mentioned today? Tom Petty? Kansas? (besides "Carry On")

Oh man, (I am going off of various lists) how about Jim Croce? Black Sabbath? Led Zeppelin? The Who? The Eagles? Yes? Fleetwood Mac? Queen? AC/DC?

The point is that most of us may have a general memory of some of the music of these bands, usually by associating that music with something else, but most of us haven't even thought of these bands in a long time, let alone many of their songs that we haven't heard in years.

You got me thinking you're not a big music fan.

Oh, I am .... but I was actually shocked when Glenn Frye died, and I went and looked at Eagles music. There were songs that I don't own, that I have all but forgotten. Same with many other songs. Heck, I have hundreds of CDs, and some that I haven't listened to in years. It happens.

I love music, but it's not my whole life.

I laid out my case, and why I believe what I do. People can disagree, and think that every one of the old rock songs we loved when we were young will be beloved by generations to come, but the odds are against it IMHO, for the reasons I outlined. Each generation has its own sound, and its own music. We look back at people like Bill Haley and the Comets, Doris Day, The Kingston Trio, Nat King Cole, Perry Como, and other hugely popular artists of the 50s ..... and so much of their music is forgotten by most people. (maybe there are some here who know every song by every one of those artists, but I doubt it) Name me 3 Bobby Darin songs. Or the 4 Aces. There are tons of musical artists and groups from that era who are played less and less as time goes by. Some of the classics survive, but most is just forgotten, because it belongs to a different era.

Like that era, I believe that some of the most iconic songs will survive, but most people will forget about the rest. Time moves on. People are forgotten, and they are more important than any song.(and by forgotten, I mean that we don't think of those who have passed every day, or maybe every week. They are out of our sight, and for the most part, we relegate them to a position behind all of the important things currently happening in our lives)

I am not saying that every single rock song will be forgotten within 5 years, but that more and more are forgotten by more and more people, or are less important to those who come behind us, as time goes by. They have their own music, and their own priorities. Anyway, that's my case, and I'll rest on it.

Thanks for reading.

Maybe so Clem, but 90's rap took hip hop to another level. Unfortunately, the sound and message has been distorted over time.

He's got me thinking that he NEEDS to win the debate and can't accept how the rest of the world thinks.

This could have been such a great discussion. I was hoping that Clem would come on here and talk about some of the roots between the blues and rock. About how one genre affects another. About how so many great musicians were influenced by others who preceded them. About how good music can indeed transcend time. About certain aspects of music, such as the aforementioned "blues back-beat" is like the theme in good literature and how it holds a composition together AND can be found not just in the Blues, but also in so many of our great rock songs.

But, it's gotta be about rock is dead because YTown wants it to be.

i dunno if i agree with that too much. Rap in general has never been popular on the radio back in the day. now...absolutely.

what you're hearing today on the radio is more or less pop.

you're going to hear Future on the radio. that kinda rap, while entertaining, is trash.

but you're not gonna hear Royce Da 5'9, or any of those slaugherhouse guys on radio. you're not gonna hear Mos Def(who retired, btw), Talib Kweli, Lupe Fiasco, or Joey Badass on the radio. you're gonna hear all the music that plays in the clubs.

it's the same with rock music. the crying EMO kids are getting radio play, but bands like Bullet for My valentine, when they were first getting hot, got no air spin.

Well Vers, lemme take a stab at it.

Rock and roll came from the blues - with a little bit of country and mountain music thrown in.
Hell I got into a Buddy Holly kick a couple years ago and I can hear old Hank Williams all over that.
Sam Phillips found himself a white boy who could sing black, and rock and roll was born, via the hip-swivelling Mississippi boy named Elvis Presley.

Rock ain't dead and it ain't ever gonna be dead as long as guys like me are still flying the flag, and still plugging in my Les Paul or Strat into my Marshall and making some noise (last summer finally got me a Strat, white with a maple fretboard, looks like the one Jimi played at Woidstock. When I took her home, first song I played was Hendrix - Little Wing.

TTown: I can name hundreds of songs by most of those bands you mentioned, and a helluva lot more from bands you didn't mention.

I don't have kids but for for example I have a co-worker whose teenage daughters listen to the same hair metal she listened to when she was a teen.

Rock is still rockin'.
Period

Here is what I wrote to a feloow Dawg in a recent PM:

The Blues is two different things at the same time.


Blues #1: It's the sound of Chicago, KC, Memphis, Miss Delta... and yes, they've all influenced R&R. Jagger/Stones, Clapton, Townshend- ALL claim Black American Blues artists as major influences. The connection is well-documented and a lock-down fact.

Blues #2 is also a chord progression of 12 bars: Home chord played for 4 bars... next chord, 4 steps up from home, played for 2 bars... home for 2 bars. Next chord, the 5th step up from home, played for 2 bars... return to the home chord for 2 bars.

12 bars. Neat and tidy. A journey away from home and back again with an economy of movement. As simple and as elegant as it gets.

here's a great example:



...and 90% of ALL early R&R was based on this set of chord changes. (I picked the whitest, squarest example I could think of to make my point)




So yeah. The connection is undeniable.

R&R owes its very existence to Howlin' Wolf, John Lee Hooker, Memphis Slim and BB King.

In keeping with simple and elegant, consider the back beat Vers brought up, emphasis on the second and fourth beat, (one-TWO-three-FOUR), and then, trim the seven note major scale down to only 5 notes and do all your solo work within that.

12 bars, back beat and 5 notes. You can sing the blues and dance to rock 'n roll all night long with no more than that.

Don't forget the flat fifth, ddub. It's not a necessity, but it comes in handy in any blues solo.

Awesome line.

Thanks to the three of you guys for educating guys like me. If anyone else is interested in this topic, start listening for it in a lot of rock songs. It's literally amazing how many songs have that connection.

Here is an educational piece about how the blues influenced Led Zeppelin:

http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer...&m=87803106

Right you are. I was just breaking it down to the simple Pentatonic scale. Hell, BB King could play a 3 note solo that would get deep down in your soul.

Thanks for the props.

It's so amazing that you could play songs for days on end without ever deviating from it. The combination of the 12 bar blues chord progression and the pentatonic scale is a universal human language.

There's this.

Yeah, really. That, the 12 bar blues and the I-VI-IV-V cover one heck of a lot of songs.

I've been there when he's done this.
3 times, over the past 20 years.
The results are always the same.
Audiences 'get it.'
Every. Single. Time.

Mind = BLOWN.

Bobby's done this all over the world. In countries where he doesn't speak a lick of the native language.

Same results, every time.
Every. Single. Time.

BOOM.

'The Pent' is a staple in more musical cultures than you can count. It's just another way to show that Human Beings (despite education, politics, religion, geographical region or national origin) are more alike than they are dissimilar.



I had this super-precocious kid as a private student some years back. When he was 13, he wanted to add guitar to his arsenal. When I asked him why, he acted kind of sheepish. I filled in the blanks for him:

"You wanna work a guitar to get the girls that you can't get with the cello- right?"
He just looked at the floor.... and I broke out laughing my ass off.
(My private lessons look NOTHING like J.K. Simmons' in 'Whiplash')

I said: "Go on, with yo' bad self... as long as it doesn't mess with what I'm trying to teach you in here."

He did... and started becoming quite proficient.
Next year, he comes to me, all out of breath. "Mr. C! I just found this bangin' new video game. It's called..."
"Guitar Hero."
"Wow. You know this???"
"Yep... and I also know that you'll be bored with it in less than 6 months."
"Oh, man... NEVER! It's got all these levels..."
"...that you'll crush in less than 2 weeks time- for any level. I'm already teaching you the ultimate 'eye-hand coordination game' right here, son!

3 months later, he came into a lesson, and spilled the beans. "You were right- again. How did you know?"

I just smiled that cryptic, Yoda-like smile that Grandfathers smile the first time they 'magically' pull a quarter from their grandchild's ear.

A few months later, he blew into a lesson, all charged up about this guy he'd heard of: Yngevi Mamlsteen.

"Yup. You can do better than he can."
"Wait- you know who he is?"
"Yes. And I'm telling you right now, that you can learn all his tricks in a year."
"Malmsteen? NO WAY! Malmsteen rules..."
"...he rules scales and arpeggios... the same stuff I've been telling you for TWO YEARS to do, to prepare you for my lessons. He rules pentatonic lines, and he riffs with speed.... in 4 keys. When you get his game down, come back- and I'll teach you how to do it in the other 9 keys. THEN, we can work on blues scales, flat-5's, chord extentions... and maybe then, you'll be redy to start studying Jazz."

"Why would I want to study that?"
"Because Jazz is what Rock has always tried to be... without knowing it."

"Why would you take the time to show me this?"
"Because it will make you a better Classical musician. Jazz AND rock got their musical foundations from Bach... and he lived 300 years ago. Bach used to eat guys like Malmsteen for lunch. He'd travel from town to town, and have 'throw-downs.' He never lost. NEVER. In almost 20 straight years of throwdowns. Mozart was the ultimate rock star of his day. He was ALMOST as good as Bach... but he could jam too."

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I just couldn't help myself tonight. My memories took over... and I've been banging out this post with a bigass cheese-eatin' grin on my face from the very first word.


**************

SUMMARY:

1. Taylor is finishing his BA in MusPerf this year at my old alma mater. He's had 4 good years with the cello prof that taught me when I did my time at "BG2." (Alan- our teacher- is retiring at the end of this year.) He's also found a niche in 'New/Experimental Music'- just like his "Cello Daddy"... and has performed a ton of World Premiere pieces at BGSU's annual New Music Festival. 'T-Dawg' is planning post-grad studies in Cello Perf with a specialty in New Music. He already has his pick of 2-3 very prestigious schools, and is waiting to hear from 2 more, before he makes his selection. Kid is MILES advanced from where I was at his age. I couldn't be prouder.

I'll never let on to it, though... how far would Luke have gotten, if Yoda was all: "Special, you are. 'Wreck all of Music', you will."
???




2. These notes we all play- from lowest to highest- are only useful if we have the abilty/smarts/wisdom to arrange them in new and exciting ways. Some people decide to arrange them in increasingly complex forms. Those folks seek to impress the most learned of their colleagues with their innovations. That's cool. We need them to advance The Art. Some will try to play faster, louder, higher... and that's cool, too. Still others will will manipulate sound through technology, in an effort to do the same thing that Blues does:

Take us on a journey... and bring us back home.
A journey that touched the heart of Mankind.

__________________

NOTHING does it as elegantly/eloquently as The Blues.
It's almost as old as Mankind himself.
It's certainly as old as his 'Purest Artistic Construct'-

Music.


****************
****************


TO MY FRIEND YTOWN:

THAT is why I say that "the Rock We Knew" isn't dead. It's been alive since the ancient East African Marimba Ensembles. It was alive in Johann Sebastian Bach's day. It was alive when Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart put all of Europe on 'blast'... and it's still going strong in 2016. (17th and 18th century audiences looked more like Punk Rock mosh pits than you'll ever know...)

The voices have changed over the millennia... but THE MUSIC has always been with us.

Since the Dawn Of Communication.


When you're mentioning specific acts/groups, you're thinking too small/short, My Friend.

Mankind has always rocked its ass off.
And 'rocking out' has NEVER been out-of-date.
It's why 20-somethings are still blasting folks like Bach did- three centuries ago. With the same exact chord changes.


Just another 'semi-learned' voice in The Crowd,
Clem.

But that was my point.

My point was the the songs, the individual musical expressions that mean so much to us, the combinations of music and lyrics that we loved so much, and into which the artists often poured their hearts and souls, are more and more forgotten as time goes by. Some debate me on this point, but I think that they are doing so out of emotion, rather than thinking logically. We all want to think that the things that really matter to us will life forever, and that we will be the generation to "defeat" history. The sad fact is that even a guy as famous as Donald Trump, unless he wins the Presidency, will probably be relegated to no more than a paragraph in history book somewhere.

I agree with you that musical expression seems ingrained in our souls as a people. I never debated that. I was speaking of specific songs, and groups, who are rarely heard today, and are forgotten, or never heard in the 1st place, by many more. That was my lament, not that the musical form itself was dying.

You say that the bigger picture is what's important, but I look at like having good friends who perish. Those who follow, who survive and procreate, they may look and sound the same, but they will never be our old friends. Those friends are gone forever once they pass. Similarly, and while not completely, but as time passes, the songs that meant so much to us in our younger days, for a variety of reasons, become the property of history, and fade over time.

I admit that the creation of digital media and the internet create a greater chance that various songs by a wider range of artists may survive considerably longer, but "our" music, "our" songs, they will become less popular to the population at large as time goes by.

That was my point. I accept, and agree with the idea that music as expression continues, and probably will as long as one person on this earth has the ability to carry a tune, but the individual songs, those individual memories, and those individual expressions by too many artists to count, those will be largely forgotten as the years pass by.

Anyway, I wasn't going to come back into this thread, because I had said my peace, and evidently people think that every song we loved when growing up, all the way through adulthood, will survive forever ...... and I hope that they are right and I am wrong ..... but I just don't see it happening. 100 years from now our whole current culture is likely to be mostly forgotten. Kids will study our way of living and laugh, and be shocked, just like kids today, and flabbergasted when people tell them that there was a time where a family had 1 phone, it was "tied" to the house, and all it did was make phone calls, (and we also had to pay for long distance!) or that we had to go to the library, use the card catalog, and find *gasp* books from which to do our reading and/or research for school papers. Imagine their shock that our idea of a mobile phone was rolling up to one of those new fangled ones, where you could drive up and make calls right from your car! History marches on, and old things are forgotten to make way for new. We see the gradual, but inevitable march when we look at current popular music, and other media, along with the influence of technology on this generation. It is inevitable that probably 80-90% of almost everything we know and love today will be forgotten in time. It is the natural progression of life. (IMHO, but I believe this to be supported by reality and history) Again, I agree with and respect your idea that music as a form of artistic expression will live on, and maybe even something resembling the songs we know and love, but I also firmly believe that there will come a time, in the not too distant future,(I'll even say maybe 30-50 years, when the old farts my age start dying off) where most of those individual songs and artists will be forgotten by most of the people alive at that time. Of course there will be exceptions, but most will just be gone.

Now, I said my piece, and intended to exit this thread in peace, but I saw you comment to me by name, and did not want to be discourteous. I really don't want to rehash the same argument all over again, so I am going to bow out again.

Wow! That was awesome. I had never seen that before. The audience loved it. And I believe him when he said all audiences can do the same thing no matter where he goes.

Never saw that one before, either. Pretty amazing.

Clem, great story that didn't hijack the thread, but simply evolved the thread to a higher level.

My son and I were talking about this topic yesterday. I shared some of the things we have been discussing oh this thread and he was telling me how often he and his friends listen to rock. He does love rap, but again, I think it comes back to "good music transcends generations."

One more thing..........you mentioned Bach and I was thinking of how I always thought he rocked. I just never knew how much he really did rock.

Thanks for the education, guys. It would be cool to hear from some of the younger guys on this subject and the ties that bind so much of our great music.

Make it Fourth Rock Icon Dies

Maurice White - founding member and leader of Earth,Wind & Fire

One of those very cool “black groups” from the 70s. (Others - Kool and the Gang, Sly and the Family Stone, The Spinners, Gladys Knight & the Pips)

Cool, Portland, thanks for the vid I honestly listened to it all.

A few others with that chord progression (there are thousands):

Fire Lake (Seger) , Bold As Love (Jimi), anyway you want it (another by Journey), Always on my mind (Elvis , Willie) , Jenny Ann (first song I ever wrote that I thought was good).

Don't forget the Commodores when it comes to greatest funk/soul type bands of the 70s.

I loved Earth Wind, and Fire.

Man, a lot of musical talent has left this earth already this year, and it's only February 6.







Man, they had so many great songs.

Good tunes