DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Alex Mack: Cleveland Browns going in right direction

Lmfao!

cut who?

Not sure I even said to cut Manziel in my post...

This was solely about the football side visa vi the analytics side and how if they are polar opposites then Sashi will need to be the tie breaker.... Sashi may have said draft him anyway.... off field notwithstanding.

How does that impact their problems with Manziel?

You know as well as any of us that the QB is held to a different standard and level than any other position is.

The QB sets the tone for the offense. He is the leader, and has the most important and difficult job. He not only has to know what he does on every play, but also what every single other player on the field does on every single play. If the QB is not willing to live football 24/7, he is unlikely to succeed. (and I don't care what QBs like Namath did, as some other people have opined, because that was an entirely different era)

A WR touches the ball maybe 4-5 times/game. The QB touches the ball on every single snap. Didn't you coach at one point? You know that there is a major difference in responsibility between the 2 positions. Further, there is no guarantee that any of the 3 players you mentioned will be on the team next year. Heck, Gordon may not even be reinstated. Right now he is a complete non-factor. Unless Gilbert turns his career around, there is no reason to expect that a new coaching staff will want to deal with him either. None of those 3 players have any assurance of being here next year.

The difference between all of the players you mentioned, and it is a big difference, is that Gordon had 1 season of true All Pro level performance. That is something that neither Manziel, nor Gilbert, can say. If Gordon is reinstated, and remains on the team, this is why.

And if Gordon's cut the reason for that would be to send a message to the locker room that you can't do drugs and get DUI's.

I think it's a better choice to cut the WR that isn't as important as the QB ....You know the WR that has actually been suspended by the NFL 3 times.

If you're arguing that QBs are more important than WRs, I think generally yes.

I would then argue, specifically, that an All Pro WR is more important than a QB who doesnt care. Which IMO, is what Gordon vs Manziel boils down to.

As it relates to Gordon, my opinion has always been, if hes going to be an all Pro WR, I want him to do it here.

He has made countless mistakes, that were all choices he made, and should be relied upon, but if he returns, and I think we can assume he will, I want him on the team. Because thats how Prime Time sports works in 2016. You can go to jail for two years, and come back and be a Pro Bowler if you have the talent.

But you have to have the drive.

I hope Gordon has the drive. I do not think Manziel does. Thats the difference.

Just thinking aloud here, so take that into consideration. So, say Mack does sign here, and Schwartz leaves for greener pastures, with Bitonio returning, and Paztur looking pretty solid, could we move Paztur to RG, and let Erving go to RT? Erving got pushed around inside, early in the season, but seemed to play better at the end. Maybe his strength might be at more of a RT, since it requires a little more quickness, and less brute force than either guard position.

Erving at tackle would be a disaster.

Erving's strength is at center. He played best at center in college and was drafted as a center.

We will see how Erving does next year, the front office and coaching staff don't have to claim him, so if he stinks they can just bury him.

Erving anywhere on the roster would be a disaster. He was not just bad, but he opened the door and let the Def. player right through the line to the QB

Maybe we could find a trade partner for Erving? Assuming Mack returns..

..do the Colts need a center?

My response to this didn't work correctyl, so here it is again:
From what I read, wasn't Erving playing LT for most of his time at FSU? And considered a high level talent? It was reported that he only moved to center due to injury at the starter there.

Actually he played DT as a true Freshman before getting hurt in the first game. He got a medical redshirt and played DT the entire next season as a redshirt Freshman.

He moved to left tackle for his Sophomore season and played all 14 games there that year. He made all ACC his junior year at LT. He started at LT his senior year, but was moved to Center when Austin Barron got hurt.

In my opinion he looked okay at LT, but he looked like an elite prospect at Center.

I am sorry to say he looks like neither now.

Hey, this guy dresses for games AND plays which is upside galore from Bowe. What is the best, most economical way to shed Bowe?

I'm not ready to write off Erving, but I wouldn't plan anything around relying on him in any way.

I'm interested to see what a proper and full NFL offseason of strength work & conditioning does for him. There are big strides to be made, for sure.... but, yeah, I wouldn't bank on him at ANY position just yet.

Agreed. I have difficulty believing that someone who looked so good in college but looked bad as a rookie in the pros is a complete bust. I've heard nothing to suggest he didn't work hard, and I thought he showed improvement. I think he was asked to play a role he wasn't suited/prepared for, and wasn't prepared for the talent jump. But now that he has a year of humiliation under his belt, with proper training we could see a much different player.

This is my view as well. With a good coaching staff, a little expereince, and a full offseason of training, he could be everything we wanted when we drafted him. Hope springs eternal.

Gilbert.

Not trying to be rude, but did you guys watch Erving last year?

His pass blocking was waaaaaay better than his blocking on kicks, so there's that.

Erving should be fine tbqh. The line has been very self-correcting and a lot of his problems came from being weak. Well, he now has an offseason to add muscle and strength. Unless he's participating in Mingo's offseason training, then it'll be near impossible for him to not add strength next year. I think he'll be a lot better next year.

Especially after he moves to Center.

thank you. anybody remember Oniel Cousins? I think they're related somehow

j/c

I believe that playing him/trying him out at several different positions during training camp and pre season, gave him very little opportunity to properly prepare for any one position on the OL. That was on the coaching staff.

But nothing about his play gave me reason for optimism.

Well, that's kind of where my thinking started. Maybe he's just a pure center, and that's where we need to play him. Everyone seemed to think he was the Mack insurance policy pick.

He was a 6th Man/Swingman pick that had the added benefit of possibly being able to pick up the slack if Mack goes... but, mostly he was brought in to be the guy that keeps the line from missing a step during the season if one of the interior guys goes down, like what killed our line in the 2014 season.

It hasn't quite worked as planned.

I saw nothing in his play this year that suggests anything that isn't fixable with a solid offseason. He should show marked improvement in 2016.

I definitely expect, and actually a pretty dramatic, improvement from Cam this offseason. However, I don't think he can fix anything that would allow him to play tackle. His "length" and etc makes him for nothing but an interior position.

My stab in the dark is Alex Mack leaves, Grecco moves to center, Bitoni and Pasztor fulfill the guards spots and Thomas and Mitchell on the outsides.

My second stab in the dark if both Mack and Schwartz leaves is that we then move Grecco to center still, Bitoni and Irving at guards and Thomas/LT with Pasztor playing RT.

Let's hope by some act of something - we can retain Mack and pay Mitchell to keep him here and Irving can continue to develop/be the swing player.

Gilbert DIDN'T work hard and DIDN'T show improvement.

I just pray that he is living in the weight room for the entire off-season ... because he desperately needs to add strength.

I also hope he he is working on balance. Maybe study some wrestling techniques ..... but he really needs to learn to stay low, and play with a solid base.

Basically ... he needs a lot of work. He's not ready right now, IMHO.

Harsh!

Might work.

Not just to you:

So, you guys are basically saying that it is all about experience, coaching, etc. It has NOTHING to do w/strength? Balance? Recognizing defenses? Seeing stunts? Blitzes? Leg Drive? Technique?

None of those things matter. It's all about playing a certain position.

Cool! I think I am trying out for center next year. I can learn, too!!!!!

Oh, but don't ask me for playoff tickets.

So he has the requisite NFL strength and balance but decided to hold them back since he was not playing center?

No one has said this and no one will say that. That's the root of his problem.

I sense that some felt his poor play was because he was not at his best position. I was disagreeing, pretty much inline with your assessment

He wasn't playing his position either, but he should be a much better guard than he was. He was drafted to play center. Let him play it.

Strength is his 2nd biggest problem.

Pad Level is his biggest problem IMO and it makes his 2nd biggest problem look worse.

The big thing I worry about is with the coaching change, does he even know what he needs to work on in the offseason? He probably knows to hit the weights, but did anyone give him specifics about his pad level?