DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... American Exceptionalism

I wanted to know the feelings of board members on here as it relates to American exceptional ism . First off I guess does it exist ? Are we the greatest country in the world and if so then why ? Do we as a country have an obligation to assert ourselves on other countries to further the our doctrines . Do we deserve our " place at the head of the table " or should we try and assimilate into a global society ?

American exceptionalism is a belief, so yes, a lot of people in this country believe it.


"Greatest" is such an arbitrary scale.. I think there are a lot of things we do really well and some things we don't. Probably our "greatest" attribute was our form of government that allowed the people to decide to change course if we wanted to. I'm not so sure that ability exists like it used to, or perhaps it never really did.


We have an obligation to lead, not to assert (or force)... which is where I think we have gotten off track over the last 3 or 4 decades.. We also have a horrible time admitting when we were wrong...


Same answer as above, we should get along while assuming a position of leadership. Quite honestly, we should be at the head of the table because of our ideas and what makes us great, not because our military is 4x the size of anybody elses.

Thanks for the input . I agree with a lot of the things you had to say especially about our inability to admit we were not right .

I find it a fascinating topic.. Within the country, you come across some who think everything America does is great and the rest of world (Europe and Asia) are all a bunch of morons... then those who think parts of Europe and Asia are perfect and we are a bunch of buffoons..

Not sure why it's so hard for so many people to admit that good ideas can come from all over the place.. My daughter is funny, she's 12, if we go clothes shopping for her, whatever my wife picks out, she doesn't like... what I pick out, she thinks is awesome. When we went school shopping last year my wife and I would both pick something out and switch, then show them to her asking her preference, she would pick what I had every single time, even though her mom had actually suggested it... and I think some Americans are like that... If somebody from Wyoming proposes something, it's probably a good idea... if the same idea started in Europe, it's probably some stupid socialist bull crap...

...and I loathe talking politics with either group. Every time I've tried, I've just been shut down because I'm not totally in agreement. Sometimes, with 'extreme prejudice.'

Frustrating as hell... and a total waste of my time.

Buffoons and morons, indeed... but it ain't Europe or Asia that fit that description.

'Absolutists' drive me nuts.

If you ever watch House Hunters International you will see their standard of living (housing) isn't very good compared to ours. But it doesn't matter. They have done studies that show people in Europe and even poor countries are just as happy as Americans.

Which is why I like seeing posts like yours and DC's . There is room for many ideas and opinions and "ours" aren't necessarily the best ones .

I have a few stories that deals with Americans in exceptionalism abroad.

But anyway, you ask Americans, they think they are the best country. You ask Russians, they think they are the best country.

The only thing I have to say to that is this:

If you still think America is the best, great. Or any other country is the best, fine. But you better have travelled extensively to come up with your conclusion, or the opinion won't hold much weight.

For example, it's really hard for me to take somebody seriously who says that the US is the best, if they never even left the state of Ohio.

Having traveled to a good many places around the world I don't know that I would share that point of view. You are right about happiness though . When I went to Vietnam I was struck by how happy the people seemed and how nice they were as a whole in spite of the poverty that was pretty evident. Driving is chaotic there but I was surprised at how little road rage I saw compaired with driving in America .

There is a reason the term Ugly American was coined . We don't hold a monopoly on bad behavior though travel with Chinese and you'll see what I mean .

Happiness is usually based on past experiences and expectations... some people aren't happy unless they have a filet mignon and a $100 bottle of wine because that is what they are used to... somebody else might be equally happy getting a serving of rice with a piece of dried meat and a glass of clean water because that is more than they are used to...

Hopefully this won't derail the thread, but that is what has always baffled me about peoples fascination with following the lives of the rich and famous... I find that people who do that are often unhappy with their own lives because they spend so much time focusing on the things they don't have.

I agree 100% and I have NOT traveled extensively internationally..

And I think that it's both cultural, yet somewhat universal at the same time.

I notice the difference between how we grow up here in America and how European grows up.

I always wanted a big house and a yard because I grew up being told that's what success is.

When I told that to my wife, her first response is "why? I rather spend the money on a family vacation".

In general, the concept of owning in a home in Europe isn't important to them. Hell, a car wasn't important to my wife until we moved over here, then it became a necessity.

There's so many factors that go into this topic. Where and how you was raised, what did you do when you became an adult, etc.

This would be a good thread for that Jeff Daniels rant in the opening sequence of HBO's Newsroom. Just a bit too much profanity to post though.

I've lived overseas and I will say the US isn't the greatest country. We do a lot of things well, and other countries do a lot of things well. I preferred the way of life in Germany, for sure.

yea i saw that clip on FB a few times.

i think we countries are just way too different to be properly compared to each other, for the most part.

look, it's a no brainer, most of us rather be here than say, Iraq.

but when it comes to other countries, it's not so clear anymore.

for example, personal preference to life styles.

had this bro in the military who swore up and down america was the greatest country. well, he got stationed in Japan, and that tune changed real quick. he got out the army and stayed there. now there's nothing that the US does better than Japan to him.

but he also changed his mind because he's a white guy surrounded by asian chicks, and that's the kind of women he liked.

so you just never know until you visit a place i guess.

I've found that remaining open to many different kinds of people (and ideas) accomplishes much the same thing. Travel brings it home more immediately because of the new locale(s), but a diversity of outlook can be found anywhere. Choosing friends from many walks of life is key.


.02

Yeah, that clip is EPIC.
So "in your face."

I do not like the fact that we pick and choose where to get involved in others internal workings . Seems we only go where it will financially benefit us which is fine yet we use the BS justifications of humanitarian reasons . Our meddling has led to more instability in the world than almost anything else . Our policies are responsible for the deaths of millions worldwide either by our actions or in the case of Africa our inactions . We earn our enemies just as we have our friends .

well, i've said before on this board, the title of "world police" kinda happened at no fault of our own.

we were 1 of two superpowers standing after WW2. at this time, we WERE the greatest country on this planet, and it wasn't even close.

you either had to choose between being a commie, and freedom. wasn't a hard choice for people around the world, ya know?

but when you're the only superpower on the block, naturally getting power hungry and telling people what to do and when to do it was bound to happen.

the question now becomes this: do we continue being the world police? or do we fall back?

and at what will be the cost for both decisions?

America is the greatest country in the World. However, it doesn't mean we can't get a lot better in many, many ways.

I disagree. The USA is great, yes. But we aren't "all that and a bag of chips" either.

We have some great ideas, innovations, technology, etc. We're also bankrupt - and we aren't coming out of it. No way, no how. Right now, it's simply a matter of how long can we hold out. And what does our gov't. do? Bankrupt us even more.

We have, if memory serves, somewhere around 50% of our population relying on gov't. for their existence. That doesn't work.

Work ethic, for the most part, has gone away. Those that have a work ethic are seeing those without it sucking them dry.

Nah, we WERE a great country. We're not anymore. We're riding on the coat tails of what we used to be.

Of course, just my opinion.

anyway, i'mma try and stay on topic about Exceptionalism, and stay away from the constant "young people suck" rhetoric going around recently.

Exceptionalism is a problem with developed nations, specifically those in America and Europe.

French people are by far some of the rudest people i've ever met in my life.

however, Americans traveling abroad are.....ugh. it ranges anywhere from "why don't they speak english around here!!" to typical stereotypes they make fun of toward the locals.

we had an incident with a drunk soldier in germany. he got pissed cause the polizei pulled him over for running a light, and he started screaming and call them Nazi's and went on with "if it wasn't for my country, you'd be speaking russian".

come on with that, man. No, french fries don't come from France. all germans arent blonde, and no, every chick doesn't want to go home with you because you're from America. we have some of the most arrogant tourist on the planet. There's a lot of "I'm american, you can't do this to me" incidents that happen a TON.

but....French people are still 10 times worst, IMO.

Ten times worse while we invade their country wearing socks with sandals?

The horror...

Don't forget fanny packs. Whoever invented that needs to be put down.

Man, if that isn't the truth.

It happens quite often and I also loathe it. I will give you two examples to help paint a picture:

I still own a home in Ohio and go back there in the summers. The guy across the street is a good guy. Big, outgoing, funny, etc. We drink beer and talk. The past several years he has shifted from being a union rep for a steel company and a huge democrat to a retired [health reasons] "conservative" who listens to talk radio constantly. He would come over and quote Rush Limbaugh and I would try to ignore it and I really wasn't sure what was true, what was exaggerated, and what was total BS! I would become so aggravated that I had to become forceful in telling him that I did NOT WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT ANYMORE. His one-sided slant made me want to defend the "liberals." Btw.......I hate both of those terms.

Now...........there is a teacher I work with who is a "liberal" and he drives me nuts w/how he cracks on everything the Republican party does. I resort to trying to draw others into the conversation so I can walk away. LOL...

Both sides are so sure of everything. The world is not that black and white. It's just hard to find people that want to discuss the issues w/intelligence and lack of bias.

Work ethic isn't dead in fact it is alive and well . You speak of the government as if is this big bad terrible monster that has its own gravity and sucks up everything in its path . While it has become bloated it is still in our power as a people to fix it . We have the leaders that we deserve to have and nowhere is that more evident than this election cycle. We once considered ourselves great and many around the world still share that view but we have become jaded fat and lazy . We want quick fixes and for them to be painless and that just isn't how it is gonna happen .

It wouldn't play on here but the link is below...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyzDRc34l2g

Bingo! As a society, we are jaded, fat, and lazy. We expect, not respect.

Please note, I didn't say work ethic was "gone" (if I did, I didn't mean it that way) - it's just that too many don't have it. Too many have learned to not have it. In part, I blame unions. In part, I blame participation trophies.

Give me someone with a work ethic over someone with a "hey, I put in my time" any day.

Perhaps "work ethic" means something different to you than it does for me.

Some years ago I noticed a parting phrase that always puzzled me. Rather than say "goodbye", "good luck" or simply "see you later", I started hearing, "Don't work too hard". It was always said in a jovial, half-joking manner but nonetheless it was said. I still hear it.

I don't know if it was something local to me or if it caught on elsewhere but as a young man I thought it based on laziness. Like the person saying it has already determined that he was not going too work to hard and so was suggesting the other guy doesn't either.

Some of the old Dawgs will remember this guy:

I don't know..........I take the "don't work too hard" thing as just a facetious comment. I say it often.

Work ethic: I learned it from my dad. He had a good job, yet he went into work every Sat. morning. When I asked him why he worked every Sat. morning (7:30 till 12:30 or so) he said "I can get more work done in those 5 hours than I can in 2 9 hour week days."

Work ethic. My grandpa was the same. (and the grandpa wasn't my dad's dad, it was my mom's dad).

Work ethic.

Why is my son going to do his presceptorship 3 hours away from his home? Spend 5 days a week, 3 hours away from home? Work ethic. When he's done up here (yeah, he'll be staying with us), he'll head to his home, put in 24 hours of work over the weekend, and be back here Sunday night, to continue his (I prefer to call it) apprenticeship. 6 weeks of doing that.

Work ethic. It pays off - whether you are a CEO, a factory employee, a wanna be N.P., or just a regular old joe like me. Work ethic.

Maybe that's all it is. I may have taken it wrong way back then.

“Beautiful for spacious skies,
For amber waves of grain,
For purple mountain majesties
Above the fruited plain!”

The United States is still the overall best country in the world, capable of providing comfortable lives for the vast majority of its 300 million+ citizens.

But it won't be forever. I imagine when the US dies, there will be a very different world order (disorder).

Call me an American Exceptionalist.

I completely and enthusiastically disagree. I could write at length, my opinions about work ethic, the younger generation, the reason half of our people are on public assistance... but I do not believe it is for a lack of effort.

Our workforce, our family structure, our social dynamic, it's all changing.. our generation changed it, we are the reason for the change... I'm sure I'm not the only 50ish dude that sees it. Our generation is the reason the divorce rate is over 50%, because we worked too damn hard.... too many long hours... too many late nights... too many missed family functions... and we found some nobility in that, we wore it as a badge of honor that we worked 60, 70, 80 hours a week chasing some material milestone, while the family slipped away.

So I will give all the credit in the world to the millennials who watched it happen and decided, I'm not going to live like that. To those who decided, I want a good job, I'm willing to work hard but I'm not going to sacrifice my family and my health to get it. To those young folks, I say BRAVO for seeing what we couldn't see... that you get what, 50, 60, 70 years on this planet and we want to brag about how much time we spent working chasing money at the expense of so much else?

I've seen it.. a young dad wants to take time off to go to his childs doctors appointment or go to his school play or he needs to stay home because his kid is sick and his wife also has a job and he gets ridiculed because "his wife should handle those things"... I've seen it... they get accused of not having that "work ethic".. or the guy that wants to go home at 5:00 so he can eat dinner with his family most nights gets accused of not having that "work ethic" because the old dudes are at the office until 7:00 or 8:00 every night... of course many of them are on their third wife and can't figure out why their wives are always so bitchy.. or the young lady that wants to leave work early so she can do her yoga a few days a week, even though she will take her laptop and still end up working more than 8 hours a day, she is accused of lacking that "work ethic" because her health is important to her even though everybody agrees she is exceptional at her job.. I've seen it. Or the guy that is doing back breaking work, out in the weather, 8 or 9 hours a day, doing the manual labor that nobody else wants to do and he's doing it for a wage that won't even come close to providing a reasonable place to live and the basic necessities of life for his wife and his new baby and the old guys sit in the comfort of their SUV wondering why he doesn't want to give all he has to his job... I've seen it.

If this country, as you say, is not great any more... then the older generation needs to stop looking at the younger generation as the cause and go look in the mirror...

This is one area where the Europeans absolutely CRUSH the United States.. and that's in a lot of the aspects of quality of life... taking 3 week vacations to spend time with the family and to travel? AWESOME. Going home and having lunch with your kids? AMAZING. Heck in the US most people eat at their desk and you are lucky to get a 3 day weekend once in a while and maybe eek out a hectic 5 day trip to the beach in the summer.

Do you know how often I cringe when I hear people (especially guys from my generation) say they spend "quality time" with their kids? What the hell is "quality time"? You are either spending time with your kids or you aren't. Not seeing your kids all week because you don't get home until 9:00 pm then taking them to ride go carts on Saturday and thinking that "quality time" makes up for not seeing them all week doesn't work.

So whatever you see in the next generation as far as work ethic and values is a reaction to how they were raised, how they view the world based on what we did. I'm not saying everybody in our generation got it wrong, a lot didn't.... but I don't think this next generation is getting it as wrong as you think they are and if they are, at least some of that is on us.

Sorry arch, didn't mean to unload specifically on you... this is just something I feel very strongly about and.. well, once I got going, I just kept going.

I see it also...man I'm glad I did what I did to make money but in doing so I missed out on a ton...I ponder this all the time..was it worth it?? yes and no if that makes sense.

I always found it funny the idea that you need to work your ass off, and save for retirement, as if once you're retired, that's when you can do your traveling.


That concept is and will always be bogus to me.

We save our money, not just for a rainy day, which is understandable, but for this concept of generational wealth.

So I'll ask you and DC, cause I value you guys opinion, an example question:

What do you think I'll enjoy more: a BMW at the age of 25? Or a BMW at the age of 65?

What do you think I'll enjoy more: partying in Germany at the age of 20-25, or visiting Germany when I need a walker to get around?

One thing about Europe that I like more than America is that they value life experience more than working 80 hours a week.

What's the point of making all that money if you have zero time to enjoy it?

Why should I work 80 hours a week while my wife is at home feeling neglected?

Why should I work 80 hours a week if I don't get to see my kids play sports, or any other event that participate in?

We seem to value work more than enjoyment of life. And I don't know why.

This used to be a can do Nation.
All I am reading here is why people can't do or won't do.
Excuses and more excuses.

You want to sit around with the family all the time and never miss anything, fine. Just don't cry to me that you can't get ahead.

Life is a balance if you want to be successful. My wife and I both built good careers while raising 3 kids. We worked shifts so our kids were never alone. The only thing we missed out on was sleep because we attended their events, the wife ran their Hockey team, I kept the books for their baseball teams, was a Volly Firefighter and our kids got raised while we built wealth for our future. We watched every dime and invested wisely.

People want to blame my generation for today's problems and I say it was a certain portion of my generation, not all of us!
I called them Libs then and I call them Libs today.

We went to Church, had good morals, never cheated on each other, helped those less fortunate, our kids were raised knowing respect for themselves and others and no one made excuses for it being hard. Yea it was hard!

Give me the good old days when Dad would say, "Shut up and get a job!" Just like I told my kids and now they tell theirs.

I won't respond to your questions because you already know the answers...

Somewhere along the line the American Dream switched from "quality of life" to "accumulation of stuff"

I won't even call it "accumulation of wealth" because that would imply that folks my age have saved most of their money... when in fact, most have not. We generally live in houses bigger than we need, drive cars more expensive than we need, etc.. so not only are we working too much, we still aren't going to have this glorious retirement that so many are expecting.

I take it back, I will answer one question...



This one... Obviously the BMW at the age of 25 would be more fun.. but most people at 25 can't afford a BMW at least not in the sense that I use the word "afford"... so my advice (and I'm just making these numbers up).. instead of enjoying a BMW at 25 for $45K, get a Honda Accord for $25K, take the family to experience Brazil for a week, and put $10K in your retirement.. because in the end, it's just a car, a means of transportation...

Saw a quote years ago that influenced me though I have no idea who said it... "Spend your money on memories and not on stuff"

I lived in Austria. I've been to Germany, Italy, Belguim, Luxembourg, and the UK among a few other central American countries.

IMO The U.S. is by far the best place to live in the world.

Europe is by far the best place I've been to in regards to mass transportation and getting around.

The Autobahn in Germany is the best driving experience I've ever had.

Europe in general has some of the best architecture and museums in the world.

Germany and Italy are the best car builders in the world.

Mexico has some of the most genuine and the most pleasant people I've ever meet.

All IMO