DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Nick Hanauer "Rich people don't create jobs" - Trickle Down is BS

Those are good videos.

One point her made in the first vid: "businesses only hire people as a last resort, if the demand requires it".

We have been over this before, cutting taxes is just gonna allow people to more in the savings, it doesn't encourage spending as far as corporations go.

I'm glad you posted the vids bro.

Something he said made me think back to the whole idea of machines replacing minimum wage workers. Let's say you hypothetically replace ALL of those workers with machines and increase unemployment.


Who's going to buy the products of these companies? Also, how much money will be taxed even further because the newly unemployed citizens are now dependent on welfare and further government assistance?

The theory is that it will take somebody to design/build/maintain all of those machines.. unfortunately, much of the design/build part is likely to happen overseas.. that's where we lose.

I don't want to be a conspiracy nut, but it's like... Why do people praise machines essentially taking over? Do they not realize that someday, a descendant of theirs is going to be replaced by a machine completely? AI will eventually be able to perform every possible task that humans can. The technology just hasn't developed yet. One day, we're not going to need doctors or surgeons, because machines will be able to do it.

That doesn't unsettle them? I'm assuming they just don't care because it won't effect them now. What effects them now is if they can get something cheaper.

That's something else that makes me laugh. Just because a buisness owner doesn't have to spend money on labor, doesn't mean he's going to lower the price of his goods.

Case in point: how fast did grocery items go up during record oil prices, and how fast have they gone down with record low prices?

I've been saying kinda the same thing for years. When all the jobs are either moved overseas or transferred to robots, what jobs will people have where they can earn the dollars needed to buy the products. How will they afford the american dream. You know, the bunglow, white picket fence, 2.5 kids etc.

Then, we get complaints about people on public assistance and wonder how could that happen. Those lazy SOB's LOL

There is some value to the belief that NOT EVERYONE on assistance is lazy good for nothings.

Which is why I always say that finding the truth starts in the middle and works it's way right or left as info comes to light.

I don't know if this is such a bad thing. Take the surgeon example-- they spend what, 25-30 years of their lives (including primary education, secondary education, medical school, residency) just training. If you can replace say, 100 surgeons with a machine that is much cheaper, much more efficient, less prone to mistakes etc (humans have weaknesses that machines don't), you've just created a vast amount of new wealth and higher standard of living. Everybody benefits or at least everybody could benefit. That surgery that once cost $100k might now become significantly cheaper with much less risk/recovery involved or whatever.

Think of the free/open-source software movement. You can use Linux and almost anything you could possibly need software-wise, you can probably go and download it for free. The same is true albeit to a lesser extent on other operating systems. Everybody benefits from that. Hardware is cheap. Software engineers are expensive.

It's true that some jobs will become obsolete/automated/outsourced or whatever. If anything, that leads to the uncomfortable idea that at some point, the large majority of people would not have to work for society to still be extremely productive. That carries with it all sorts of implications. If you find this bothersome, you might as well start learning technologies that are almost guaranteed to be useful long-term. I'd say start by learning to write code/program.

This is exactly like Bernie Sanders' message and I couldn't agree more.

Rich people don't create jobs?

Thinking back over my life I can truly say that I have never, ever, not once, been employed by a poor guy.

how do rich people become rich in the first place?

they have to supply a product the masses want.

simply saying "i never been employed by a non-rich person" doesn't work.

especially since you retired as a fire fighter.

rich people also don't hire people if profits are down.

profits are down if product isn't being pushed. so the only way the wealthy get to hire anybody is if the consumers are demanding their product in the first place.

you know what happens when business doesn't provide the product? they aren't a business anymore.

the consumers control the market. you should watch the videos.

What scares me is the day that Skynet becomes self aware.

But to answer your question, yea, it's freaky.. it's a bit unsettling.. the question is, what do you do about it? Do you stop people from making technological advances? Which ones do you stop?


I disagree, we are always going to need doctors and surgeons because machines, no matter how well programmed, are not going to be prepared to deal with every eventuality... If the machine can do 90% of a relatively routine procedure like installing a pacemaker and they can do it faster and more precise than a person, what is the downside? You are still going to need a doctor there in case... in case the heart stops, in case there is unexpected bleeding, in case, in case, in case..

Oh such a waste of time.
If only people would read the posts before they stupidly comment on things they have no clue about.

I did not retire as a Firefighter, I was a Volunteer Firefighter who worked his way up the ranks over 30 years to Chief. Never made a penny, probably cost me money over those years. I have posted this a number of times.

Rich people do not make products, they HIRE people to make products!

The Rich guy risks everything by investing his riches and taking out loans to buy the million square foot building, buy the machinery to fill that building, hire the people to run the machinery, sell the product and deliver the product to market.

The poor guy is happy to land a job created by the rich guy.

I have never, ever, been employed by a poor guy.

And people in business never get rich without consumers buying their products. And they never continue to hire people without consumers creating a demand for their products. Consumers create jobs.

You know what happens when people can't afford the products any more? Nothing good!

Unemployment (official and unofficial numbers)

Crime increases

Government has to become caretakers or we'll have people starving in the streets (Oh wait, we already do and some are veterans)

Try buying a product that no one makes there Mr. consumer.

Along comes the rich guy, seeing a need, invests his money, takes all the risk, to produce that product.
Happily creating jobs, paying off his loans, and refilling his bank account with the profits, all to make that product for you to buy.
Such an evil man who needs to be punished!

Unless of course you expect the government to make that product for you.

The problem isn't that the businessman is evil, its that giving them a tax break doesn't create jobs, and therefore trickle down.

You give someone a tax cut, they're not going to hire anyone out of the goodness of their heart. They'll only add jobs if demand allows it. Tax cuts for the rich in the hopes of trickle down is the biggest crock...

So let us overtax the rich and care nothing of his financial health, that will surely get us those products that no one makes. Let us take his wealth and give it to the poor for they will surely help our Nation to grow, create the jobs we need and make profits soar! We certainly won't have to worry about the poor guy moving overseas now will we?

You guys think creating jobs means the business directly hires people. It doesn't work like that. In times of plenty businesses tend to spend more on frivolous things. Cater that meeting instead of people bringing their own lunch. Sponsor events in the community. Hold work events and parties, and splurge on it. Bonuses. Etc

Those things provide income for other businesses and people that they wouldn't receive otherwise. When the budget is tight, those things don't happen. Business spending isn't always about hiring new employees. It makes zero sense to hire new employees if you don't have a need for them.

Did you even watch the video?

Thanks you saved me some typing...there is a hell of a lot more then paying or hiring the help.

You know he didn't.

Yep. And as a volunteer Fire Fighter he worked for poor people, the middle class tax payers.

j/c

The people involved in this discussion are pretty much all right.

A rich guy with a business that makes a product people don't want, or can't afford, isn't a rich person for long. (If said person is IN business)

Customers ARE needed.

Rich people DO hire employees. They do it at a cost/benefit ratio that makes money.

Rich people (businesses) DO spend a lot on not just employees at their place of business - but on equipment, advertising, benefits, more equipment. Each of those activities, and many more, cause employment in OTHER industries to rise, or, at a minimum, to stay level.

Small scale example of a rich business/person: My brother just borrowed a little under $1.5 million to improve production at his business. He hired no new employees though. The companies he bought equipment from might have, probably not though. However, the employees at the companies he bought from were, at a minimum, able to maintain their employees.

My brother didn't hire any new people.

His companies production will increase a good amount due to the new equipment. He also didn't fire any employees. They just make more product in the same time.

Now, my brother is on the hook for that loan. (his business, technically). If things go south, what happens? He loses, his employees lose, etc.

Who stands to benefit? Him, and his employees.

Not investing in our countries future is short-sighted BS. If you view offering "free" college to someone as a waste, you'll never get it.

There are plenty of ways you can make it work. Put a civil service requirement on it. We need people to build/re-build our infrastructure. Work on that project for 2 years, and your school is paid for (doesn't have to be college, can be any type of skilled trades programs or what have you).

People are all willing to spend money on war, and nothing on things that will make us a better nation to live and work in.

I could've swore he said he retired as afire fighter, multiple times.

Hell Ill give an example...do you..not you Arch..just you know what it costs for new computers/system modernized system?? it was EXPENSIVE.

I'm computer illiterate but I know how to authorize the bill

I'm not saying trickle down is the answer but dont tell me people dont get rewarded from some of that there trickle.

people get awarded.

but it's people that's already there. businesses aren't going to hire new people unless they absolutely need to. good economy or not.

if my business makes 1 million a year, and the government gives me tax breaks and i make...i dunno 1.2 million or something. i'm not gonna hire anybody.

i might give my current employees a bonus or something. or i'ma buy that new coffee machine because my employees were complaining that the old one always breaks.

but if i'm making/shipping out 1,000 units a week and only need 10 people to do it, then it doesn't matter if a i get a tax break or not.

tax breaks isn't gonna increase the demand over 1,000 units.


consumers wanting the product increases that.

and if my crew can ship our 1,500-2000 units with the same 10 people, then why hire anybody?

hell, even if you give me a tax break, if the demand for my product goes down to 800 units because the market isn't demanding what i'm selling, then if i can push 800 units with 8 people, then that's what i'm going to do.

tax breaks aren't even gonna guarantee that people won't get fired. nevermind hired.

And then, in an effort to increase profit, he ships manufacturing off shore but what comes back is an inferior product and he causes unemployment to go up.

That my friend, is the way of the world.

Until corporate and banking citizens and investors in those business begin to think about what's right for America and Americans as WELL as what's right for their business, it will continue to happen.

It is time for Ted and everyone else to face the facts of American Capitalism.

Money flows through America like a giant river.
The Rich guy, thru his savings and great credit rating has risked everything to buy a boat to sail out into that river, near the middle.

He is grabbing the money flowing by with both hands and filling his boat to overflowing.

The middle class guy stands knee deep in that river and grabs the money that come near the banks, filling his basket with cash.

The poor guy risks nothing, stands on the shore in hopes someone will feel for him and hand him some cash. The government dips a net from time to time and doles that out to keep the poor guys from dying.

One day the rich guy realizes with the profits he is making, he can buy more boats and hire people to gather money from the river for him. His success grows.

The government sees what he has done and says I will charge you less taxes on the money you gather if you will buy even more boats and hire some of these poor guys to gather it. The rich guy agrees, he will take 50 percent of that tax break to buy more boats and hire poor guys to run them.

Everyone prospers!

Today we resent the rich guy and his success. We proclaim we will take 60 to 90 percent of the cash he takes in. The rich guy eventually tires of this and the first thing he does is scrap those boats he owns with the poor guys grabbing money for him and throws those guys back on shore.
Next he tires of it all because his profits are dwindling.

He has heard that China and India have rivers of money flowing through them these days. They will charge him 10 percent in taxes and he will have to pay another 10 percent in bribes to government officials.

Not sure why these arguments rage on..

Consumers create demand, rich people with businesses create supply to meet that demand.. one without the other, is useless.. It's a circle, not a straight line.

Welcome to the business world Swish..I had to learn to leave the feels out of it to a point...I admit that was hard to do.

Not everyone can stomach it...but imagine its your ass on the line...and it all fails...do you know who gives a care?? No one cares.

Look I agree with a lot of what your saying and I may have forgotten to a degree what its like for the worker...if that makes sense to you.

Sure is...without demand welll no freaking business...one not willing to take the risks involved with opening the business..no business.

Which I believe happens in a lot of businesses.. owner starts a business, tight family type relationship with his employees, as he grows he distances himself from those employees, the become more "numbers" than "people"... but it usually becomes significantly worse when owners kids take over.. the kids never had a relationship with the employees, didn't see the business built from the ground up.. that's when things REALLY start to change (and not for the better).

It's why I'm majoring in international business and supply chain management.

This stuff is fun, man. Especially supply chain. Man I didn't realize how much of this we practiced in the military on a daily basis.

I already knocked out a ton of core curriculum courses like purchasing, organizational behavior, business law and ethics, and some other joints. 2017 is when I graduated, it's gonna be a takeover.

Thanks I'm having a horrible day with fog brain...my granddaughter is here and I'm not used to the constant crying...no way I could do the child thing at my age after hearing this for 2 days.

I agree with what you wrote.

A ton of the military stuff flowed over...especially if you..not you just in general was higher then E-5

Learn away kid...I honestly see the change in you..keep going.

The argument rages on because people forget that very few people are born into wealth.

Hell, look at some of these teenage entrepreneurs. This little girl made a million dollar business designing flip flops. Started off with nothing but some material from an arts and crafts store.

Hell, look at all these people who are making six figures simply because they are making YouTube tutorials, or funny 4 minute videos.

They were nobodies, but because they provided a product the masses now demand, they are rich.

One thing I'm learning is that the businesses that didn't take a hit during the recession are businesses that were taking care of their people since day one. When you're people are making good cash, you're making good cash.

Like you said, some businesses started looking at people as numbers. I'm not saying there's a correlation, but one could make the argument that if these big corporations were taking care of their people, maybe we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place.

When the whole $15/hour minimum wage debate started a few years ago, I said that if the big corporations want to avoid having those things thrust upon them, they will figure out a way to increase wages and benefits on their own.. most did not. This is what creates the need and popularity of a guy like Bernie Sanders.

If big business gets slammed by a guy like Bernie, it's because they failed to fix their own problems..

Kind of hard to argue that point.