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Do you think Bosa is an OLB? I don't think he'll create that great a pass rush if he tries to bulk up as a 3-4 end. I think he'd be solid there, but I'm not sure he'd be an impact guy. I also felt like he tried to protect himself a lot last year compared to the year before and that concerns me a bit.

For Spence, the alcohol incident at EKU bothers me almost more than the ecstacy. It's telling me that he's not taking his issues seriously. The drinking/ party scene is where he took his ecstacy, and he's already inserting himself back into that situation. It's relatively easy to pass some drug tests if you know when they are coming.

Do you think we might be able to trade down some, still get Wentz and have an extra 1st rounder next year to go after Garrett?

Quote me on the Banner/Manuel thing, because I never said that.

A little research also brought to light that you liked Milliner and Mingo in the same draft I was all in on Ansah.

Let's recap, Bridgewater, Manziel, Milliner and Mingo. I'm impressed, very "accurate" lol. Looking at that list, you're fade material.

Sure, I whiffed big time on Gabbert and Weeden, no problem admitting it, but at least I manned up to it unlike your Manziel back and forth. When he was bad, you wanted Teddy. When he was good, you told everyone that you believed in him.

Look, you know some football, but don't pretend you're a big draft guy, because you aren't. I've called you out on your chest bumping and you can't back it up, just man up for once. You comment on a dozen guys, mostly top 30 prospects, every draft and have a spotty record even on that small sample, that's the only "accurate" I see.

What? From your links:

"10. EJ Manuel QB - "ok" in the 3rd/4th, but please don't burn any picks in a trade up"

and my first ever comment on Manuel was to Mourg pimping him:

"I'm sorry Mourg....he's horrible...can't make quick decisions and runs backwards into even more pressure....he'd be eaten alive in the NFL....ND's D is good but not great and the FSU line has 2 top 100 OT prospects in it...and when he had time he threw very bad passes...I'm not seeing a Top 50 pick, he should stay for his SR season, he's too raw for the show"

He had some obvious tools to work with, but I never was a huge fan, obviously.

I liked that line though: Mingo is exactly the size/speed tease prospect a hack like Lombardi falls in love with....so obvious

You should be able to get one of Wentz or Goff in a tradedown with Dallas (#4), but unlikely you'll get either if you trade with San Fran at #7. Who knows what Chip Kelly will do though. If you don't like the QB's, take Jack or Ramsey at #2 - I want no part of Bosa at #2...

I sited conventional stats and rankings Not because they are the best statistical representation of performance but because this is how rankings are officially calculated

There was no context provided, no source or definition of what's being measured. If that was provided at least a basis for considering the data would be available. Maybe some brilliant but obscure method was used to arrivie at the rankings Vers sited. I can't tell that by what he wrote. Maybe you can but I cannot.

I hate that for some reason this keeps getting repeated over and over again, but Joey Bosa does not need to bulk up to be a 3-4 DE. He is already a 3-4 DE.

Joey Bosa is 6' 6" and 279 lbs!

for comparison

JJ Watt 6' 5' 289 lbs
Frostee Rucker 6' 3" 280 lbs
Brett Keisel 6' 5" 285 lbs
Vinny Curry 6' 3" 279 lbs
Justin Smith 6'4" 285 lbs
Allen Bailey 6'3" 288 lbs
Jason Hatcher 6'6" 299 lbs
Cameron Heyward 6'5" 288 lbs
Calais Campbell 6'8" 300 lbs
Sheldon Richardson 6'3" 294 lbs
Cameron Jordan 6' 4" 287 lbs
Mike Daniels 6' 1" 291 lbs
Derek Wolfe 6' 5" 285 lbs

Is he a 320 lb 2 gapping run stuffer DE? No. That is not what you are drafting him for. You are drafting him for his pass rushing ability. He happens to already be pretty good on stopping the run and that is a bonus.

Most college kids will put on weight naturally in their first couple of years and 20 lbs would be normal for a kid his size, but if not, he is already big enough.

What would be tough for him to do would be to try to play 3-4 OLB and try to drop into coverage or move sideline to sideline as well as other 3-4 LB's that are between 250 and 260 lbs.

The struggle for Bosa wouldn't be playing DE it would be playing OLB. I think he could do either, but I think he is better suited to be a DE.

I have a ton of guys that I pimped and others like bone, 32, tab, Mourg, etc can back that up.

Regarding Manuel.......after the draft in one of the million posts you made degrading Banner, you said that you respected Mourg's opinion on qbs and brought Manuel up in an effort to trash Banner.

But whatever, you took all I said in that response to Grimm, and tried to make it ONLY a **** swinging contest. You are the greatest evaluator of all-time, DJ and I suck at it, even though I got paid to do it.

Now, that we ALL have proclaimed you to be the greatest ever and I suck, will you move on so we can talk football on this thread?

yeah I agree, let's leave the swinging out of this. It's a bad look.

Yes, please as this is one of the best threads currently running. So let's keep it...current.

Don't get mad at me for pulling down your pants and come up empty after talking big. You have a well documented history of re-writing history to put yourself in a good light and it's annyoing as hell to call you out on it every time and usually I just don't do it anymore and let you be in your self delusional state of grandeur, but when it comes to the draft, I'm a little more sensitive, because others actually put in hours and hours watching prospects to get a good sense of an entire draft class and pin down value, strenghts and weaknesses etc., while you're clearly the "cart before the horse" kind of guy when it comes to drafts, putting more work into your salesman rhetoric than actual evaluation. You enjoy the talking, that's ok, but "talk football", remember?

I said in my previous post that I don't have all the answers and I am not going to pretend I do.

I really don't have an answer to the trade-down question. Ask steve, DJ, Jester, or one of the other guys who really know the draft. And yes, DJ does study the draft and is pretty good at it. He just has sucked w/QBs and I get tired of his %%%% swinging. But anyway, I am ignorant when it comes to trade values.

With Bosa, I think you play him odd man fronts. People get too caught up in 3-4 or 4-3. When you are watching video, look and see how many times defenses put 5 men on the line. Whomever gets Bosa will probably run a lot of different fronts and move him around. I think they will use him to get into the backfield and make big plays, whether it be as a pass rusher or a run defender.

Spence? I agree there is a concern. No doubt about it. But unlike a guy like Josh Gordon, he has managed to pass his drug tests after getting in trouble. I could see Spence making a huge impact. I could see him going to a team like the Ravens, Bengals, or Steelers and kicking butt for years while the Browns nurture and falter w/another failed qb.

The highest ranked guys aren't always the best. Several years ago, tab started a draft thread on the official board. It was early in the season...LOL...imagine. Anyway, tab asked to come up w/some names for the draft. I brought up JJ Watt's name. He wasn't rated very high at the time and most readers hadn't even heard of him. Later in the season, he rocketed up the boards in national mocks, but no one really had him going top 5. I said the Browns should take him at 6. I know the character is different...and that is important, but I liken the stunning athletic gifts of both players and their meteoric rise up the boards late in the process as similar.

Again.......I am NOT saying I am right. It's just information to consider.

Thanks 32.

OK, then this is a good place (for all of us) to stop, Dj...

2013 defense under Horton:

Pass defense - 8th in the league (we gave up 3538 yards)
Run defense - 18th in the league (we gave up 1781 yards)
Total defense - 9th in the league (we have up 5319 yards)

If you look at the advanced stats (DVOA in this case) or defense was 27th.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2013/opp.htm
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef2013

Our defense has been bad for years. It doesn't matter who the coach is unless we get better players (or the players we currently have play better).

And here I thought this was a football website! Now I'm sure there's too much testosterone in the air...

I'm glad we decided against it, cause I didn't feel like going out and renting a crane just to prove a point.

Well you can build those with Legos.

too bad there isn't a spit-take emoji

No apology needed. Having the benefit of reading more post, I'll split hairs by acknowledging the defense was below average, they were bad and remain bad. But I also agree with crfs15 its a chronic problem that isn't isolated to a particular coach.

Well as the commercial says, if it lasts longer than four hours, go consult a physician.

Thanks for being cool. I was wrong. I do promise you though that I looked it up. Not sure what the hell happened?

I can't put my finger on it either. Browns put a heavy emphasis toward the defense via the draft every year. Defense still looks like is stuck in the mud. I will say defense looked best two years ago. Most thought it was a strength beginning of last season. My opinion, Browns simply lack depth to sustain.

Injury bug hits a specific position every years. Under Horton it was the DL. Farmer/Pettine beefed up the DL. Last year it was DBs. Haden going down was like losing two players.

I know a lot here believe in the more traditional WOLB as the pass rusher in a 3-4. My problem with this thinking is finding a pass rusher who is equally effective at both containment/run stopper and QB pressure. Why not add more speed at DE drafting either DeForest Buckner or Joey Bosa to the DL? Drafting either, in my opinion, allows many options for a hybrid front too. More pressure from the front three frees up the LBs. Continue using Mingo, Orchard, and Kruger in pressure and coverage or seek another one-dimensional pass rusher in the second or third round.

Way I see it teams are spending more money on offensive tackles. Sustaining interior pressure creates a domino effect helping the outside.