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One must remember that all media is biased, and no media outlet are truely better than another. I figure the truth is somewhere in the middle of all these differently biased reports..
IMO-That's a VERY wise deduction!
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Say what you want Pit.. back then we won wars, we fought them as long as it took, we won them decisively, we defeated enemies far superior to the ones we are fighting now, and we were proud of what our soldiers accomplished... the boo hooing was saved for when the war was over and some people who did bad things had to be held accountable... Perhaps the upside to putting the boo hooing more prominently in the news is that it will stop war all together.. but until it does, we need to fight wars to win, and we just don't do that any more...
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So you blame the media for our poor war strategy? You blame THEM for fighting for "hearts and minds" rather than the people who "executed this war"?  If you want to "fight wars to win them" maybe you should take your complaints to the White House rather than blaming the media? They didn't "contrive" this half baked war strategy,the White House did. The fact is,we went in under false pretences,undermanned with a "hearts and minds" strategy..................... How is that the fault of the media again? Or maybe you just don't want them reporting the truth about this? The media is just reporting it..............................
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Yes Pit, to some extent I do. Quote:
The media is just reporting it..............................
Sorry Pit, I don't share your ever-so-noble interpretation of the media.
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If you want to "fight wars to win them" maybe you should take your complaints to the White House rather than blaming the media?
I have already explained my complaints with the White House to you in great detail on other occassions.. if you need some kind of disclaimer attached to every post on the subject, let me know and I'll put one on my clipboard for easy cut and paste...
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You blame THEM for fighting for "hearts and minds" rather than the people who "executed this war"?
To a certain extent I do. But it goes back 40 or 50 years.. back to when the politicians and the media in some strange way, decided that it was best to fight wars without casualties... So yes, I put some blame on the media.... imagine how the media would have reported a war of decimation, conquering, and total control... then you will understand why the White House felt compelled to fight a more user friendly war. I blame them both Pit..... One for making it impossible to do it any other way... and the other for giving in to it.
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How is that the fault of the media again? Or maybe you just don't want them reporting the truth about this?
You have already admitted there is no real "truth" in the medai Pit... that all news outlets have an agenda... that the truth still lies out there, somewhere in between all that we see and hear... so which truth are they reporting? Or perhaps more accurately, which truth are you accepting? All of the sudden there is an absolute truth and the media knows what it is and is simply "reporting it"?
Allow me to ask you a simple question and hopefully you can answer it directly and succinctly... Forget Iraq for 2 seconds and answer these more theoretically....
Do you believe that what is reported in the media can influence the will, the desire, and the motivation of our soldiers? or the will, the desire, the motivation, and the planning of our enemies soldiers?
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How is that the fault of the media again? Or maybe you just don't want them reporting the truth about this?
The media is just reporting it..............................
The media is reporting half of it. They are almost the exact opposite of the media during WWII. The media of that time reported only the successes, and they were working hand in hand with the government to inform us that we were winning. We kicked ass in that war.
The current media, from at least the Nam era, are reporting how much we are losing. People at home think we are losing. Our politicians stand up in front of the country and tell us we've already lost. No wonder there are so many problems with this war at home.
I would love to see the media report the successes and good along with the defeats and problems. The problem is, nice news does not sell. Our media is not reporting the news anymore, they are selling it. Death and destruction sells much better than life and success.
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I find this rather amusing to a great extenmt. The media was "Hoo Rah" for almost two yearts of this war. Much like WW2,they supported it (almost without question) and all you guys LOVED IT! They were "on board" with the entire thing! But as things began to surface? The more questions and revolations that came out. The more scandal that rocked this administration. The more innept their strategy appeared,the more they were questioned. You see,FACTS change things. Well,at least to many people they do. As facts surfaced,the more silly the White House looked. The more innept they appeared. The more we found that the basis of this war was concieved in falsehoods. That tends to change the "hearts and minds" of the American people. Deception doesn't make for good foreign policy.  Is the media "accurate"? Nope! Are their views biased and slanted? Yep! But they're no MORE slanted by questioining this war as the FACTS came out,as they were by supporting it blindly. The problem is,some only want them to show one side of the coin. Rather than flipping that coin over and showing both sides. So yes,you have to "sift through the muck" to sort out the FACTS,but they ARE there.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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You know DC,this is ONE administration that hasn't given a damn what the media have thought or felt for some time now. But you want me to believe they "cared what the media felt" about their war strategy?????
Clinton? I would buy it. But Bush? He hasn't given a damn what the press has had to say since day 1. Hell only about 30% of the public supports this war now. Does he care? Nope! So this is one administration that I CAN'T blame the press for HIS war strategy.
If he played the "publicity game" like Clinton,I would buy into your theory. But he never has. So IMO,ths is one case where you can't blame the media for a terrible war strategy. Not that displaced blame looks very rational when proposed by people that are so adiment about personal responsibility in the first place...................................
JMHO
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I find this rather amusing to a great extenmt.
The media was "Hoo Rah" for almost two yearts of this war. Much like WW2,they supported it (almost without question) and all you guys LOVED IT! They were "on board" with the entire thing!
I find that statement amusing to a great extent.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
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You know DC,this is ONE administration that hasn't given a damn what the media have thought or felt for some time now. But you want me to believe they "cared what the media felt" about their war strategy?????
Perhaps I misspoke.. no, I doubt seriously they cared what the media themselves thought... they cared what the American people thought and the American people were going to have their opinions formed by what was reported...
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I guess that has a ring of truth to it. After all,he did need to get re-elected at that point in time. 
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Quote:
Quote:
You know DC,this is ONE administration that hasn't given a damn what the media have thought or felt for some time now. But you want me to believe they "cared what the media felt" about their war strategy?????
Perhaps I misspoke.. no, I doubt seriously they cared what the media themselves thought... they cared what the American people thought and the American people were going to have their opinions formed by what was reported...
Thats it in a nutshell DC. The media just shows the bad things. Abu Graib and stuff like that. They never have a good word for our troops and their actions over there. And Pit, I don't remember 2 years of the media being on the side of the Prez. I remember in the 1st war the medoia and libs telling us we could'nt win because the Republican Guard was to tough. In the 2nd war when we got bogged down in that sand storm they said we would never take Bagdad. Remember how we had to go out around resistance and take Bagdad before the Dems and media turned the country. We kicked their ass readily. These cowardly bombers can't be stopped. If someone wants to blow themselves up how do you stop them? All we can do is try to train the Iraqis to take over. Thats what we are doing.If the media hadn't turned the people against the war we had a chance to do a good thing for Iraq.
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The media was "Hoo Rah" for almost two yearts of this war. Much like WW2,they supported it (almost without question) and all you guys LOVED IT! They were "on board" with the entire thing!
But as things began to surface? The more questions and revolations that came out. The more scandal that rocked this administration. The more innept their strategy appeared,the more they were questioned.
So, do you have a plan to control the odd suicide bomber? Our troops stormed right through Iraq and took hussien's government out of power so quickly that we created a power vacuume. Our horribly flawed plan was to wait and allow the Iraqi's to start their own government. We should have installed a government with plenty of provisions for them to take it over and change it once they had. Instead, our delay in a government allowed the islamic fundamentalists to start bringing their style of terror to the streets. They have worked very hard to divide the peoples of Iraq. We now have a lot of Iraqi tribes hunting the fundamentalists with us.
You want someone to blame for this, blame congress. Most of congress did not read the pre-war intelligence before voting. Check the report on hillary that made the news about 2 days ago. The blame doesn't really matter anymore, as we are there and need to finish the job. Should we leave just because the intelligence was flawed and our congress didn't read it, or should we finish the job?
As for the media questioning the facts of the beginning of this war, they've already left that behind. It's still not as sellable as the death and destruction.
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I didn't know Congress had the authority to "send troops to war"? Pray tell when did this change come about? I thought only the president had that power?
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Duty,we've been training them for FOUR YEARS NOW!
When is enough,enough? How many years does it take to train them? How many years do we "buy into that excuse"?
In your own words....................."You can't stop them",in refrance to suicide bombers. So what's the point again?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I didn't know Congress had the authority to "send troops to war"? Pray tell when did this change come about?
I thought only the president had that power?
And he did it with the support of congress. An overwhelming support from congress, I might add. But now, you want to blame Bush, and NOT congress.............I'm not following that logic.
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You really need to re-read you Constitution. The president has executive power to send troops into a war zone, but only for a limited time. The pres is commander in chief, but the congress approves the funding of the war. If you missed it, almost all the dems running for pres talk about how they regret their vote to send troops to war.
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Back on track.
I hate the media too, more specifically ESPN. I hate watching ESPN, but I do since it's the only real sports station out there. (STO is really growing on me now though)
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Congress was very much an "accessory to the crime". The trigger man was Bush,but Congress was driving the getaway car.
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I'm fully aware of the "facts". Congress is much like Bush was entering this war. Bush had to get re-elected in 04. So he didn't start a "real war". You know,the kind where you just use overwhelming force and fight to "win and conquer". That would not have flown very well withg the press. So the answer? A "prissy war". You know..................We don't need many troops. We'll win their hearts and minds. We'll be greeted as liberators. You know all those lines......................... That's not a "real war". That's an "I need to get re-elected war". It sales. It can get you re-elected. A REAL war is not so pretty,but FAR more effective. Now? Congress is playing the same game. They're "afraid" to cut off funding. They're afraid the White House will spin that as being "anti Patriotic" (one of their specialties) and that they will not win the White House in 08. Both partys made a political football out of this thing and still are. Both are just as guilty for not. But the bottom line is,Bush gave the order to send the troops. Congress does not have that authority.BTW- It was a Republican Congress anyway. So no matter how the Dems voted,he'd have gotten his way regardless. But yes,both partys are to blame. But I know who sent our troops over there. I know who approved a failed strategy. And it wasn't Congress.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I just realized that you keep complaining about the circumstances, but you offer no ideas on how to fix this mess. The past is the past. There is nothing anyone can to do change it, and the only thing we really can do is learn from it. It's kinda like complaining about the failures of Browns coaches since 99. All you can really do is bitch about them.
The media will spin the war news in whatever direction they feel will earn them the most money. They will continue to show us the destruction of the suicide bombers without showing us the successes of our troops. Death sells, probably even better than sex.
Once again, we need to stay until there is a stable government. The repubs know it, the dems know it, the public knows it. They might not like it, but they know it. If we pull out our troops and leave that country in disarray, the islamic fundamentalists or the iranians will take it over. We may eventually have to kill every islamic fundamentalist we find. Don't forget, the people we are now fighting there are the same ones that took part in the planning and execution of the 9/11 attack and the 7/7 attack. We were not actively threatening them at that time, even if we knew they were terribly dangerous then. They've been attacking our country and outposts since the early 90s.
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Since the Iraqi Parliment was what we ASKED for "in the beginning". (you know,a democraticly elected government?),has spoken,maybe we should listen.
The majority of the Iraqi Parliment voted for the American government to set a timetable for withdraw in May. I suggest we listen to their democraticly elected government.
Or do you suggest we lie to the Iraqi people? I mean we told them that if they elected a democratic government,"the people govern through their representatives they elect". Well,they elected them. And that Parliment requests we leave.
The majority of Americans request we leave. The majority of Congress requests we leave.
The only one's standing in the way are Bush and Maliki. I don't see why two talking heads should stand in the way of the majority of BOTH nations governments,do you?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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The majority of Americans request we leave. The majority of Congress requests we leave.
The only one's standing in the way are Bush and Maliki. I don't see why two talking heads should stand in the way of the majority of BOTH nations governments,do you?
The majority of Americans as it's spun by an unscientific poll that takes only a small sampling of Americans. If the majority of Congress wanted us out, they would have defunded the war or kept pushing a timetable on Bush. We all know the dems lauded themselves for their election day win as a "mandate from the people". I guess they don't listen to the people too well, or maybe they do and ignore these unscientific polls. They have the majority to end this war.
The overwhelming Shia majority of their government says they want us out, so why hasn't their PM requested that we leave? It's for the same reasons I stated above. They must not listen to their people, or they know better.
Our government and their government is not run by a single man. No matter how many times the media tells us that, Bush is not the begin and end all in our government. I'm sure they want us out. I want us out. I just want it done properly. We should leave a stable government in place.
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I've already explained this once,but I'll try again. Our Congress? They want us out. Remember the veto? But they're too cowardly to stand up in the end. They want re-elected and are afraid the White House will spin it into another "anti-patriotic" thing. It's all politics. The Dems are no better. They see the presidency in sight and are too afraid to stand up for much of anything. But they did put forth a proposal for funding with timetables which was vetoed, They pretty much caved from there. But yes,deny it all you want,the MAJORITY of Americans want us OUT of Iraq! That is a fact that can't logicly be denied, Just look at what the Dems ran on in 06. "Get out of Iraq". They took over Congress and the Senate with that platform. The evidence makes that pretty much a no brainer there.
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They won because people wanted change. Dems ran as moderates supporting gun ownership and other moderate to right wing issues. Even the democraticly run government of Mass re-elected their pro-war Senator, after he lost the democratic primary. Once again, the congress has the majority to end the war. If they truely believe the majority of Americans wanted this war to end, don't you think they'd end it? Wouldn't that garner them the votes to win the white house? I guess the majority of Americans want something different than the garbage congress spouts.
Their proposals for war funding also came with tons of pork and special interest funding (also called bribes). I'd like to see them pass one of these war ending bills without the pork. I doubt they'd get enough support to even take a vote on it.
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They're not going to risk the Rove spin machine. And why should they?
With the "Bush Immigration Bill" and staying in Iraq?
Hell,he's HANDING them the presidency in 08! Why SHOULD they risk that?
It's politics as usual in Washington,on BOTH sides of the aisle. Because in case you haven't noticed? There are sprouting up GOP candidates who don't support the war either. It's all polotics.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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If they can't defend themselves from a single man, they have no business being the majority in congress. Bush isn't handing them anything, and they're too afraid to go take it.
The repubicans you see not supporting the war are also cowardly scum. Once again, they have the majority to end the war. Why haven't they? They speak one thing for the media and vote another.
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Just like ALL politicians.
Bush made LOTS of promises to the Moral Majority to get elected,but kept pretty much NONE of them.
It's the way of the politician. And that holds true for the donkeys and the elephants.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Our Congress? They want us out. Remember the veto?
Do they? I remember a bill being past that was filled with pork. I am curious to see how many members of congress would vote for a straight up pull out of Iraq bill with no extra pork added. They may talk about it, but thats all they are doing is talking. Actions will always speak louder than words.
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As was stated above,why should they? If they can convince the voters that "they tried" it'll be enough to swing the White House in 08. Why should they gamble that the White House may spin it as being "non patriotic" and hurt them in the 08 election? When as of now,they can say we WILL get out of Iraq if you vote in a Democrat for president. Politicly,they're doing the smart thing. Giving the "appearance" of trying to get us out,while at the same time,lettig the public stew even more about the war untill the 08 elections. They're playing their hand pretty well IMO. Sadly,it's all politics while our young men and women are laying their life on the line. But this entire war has been nothing BUT politics even before it started on both sides of the aisle. So what's new?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Why should they gamble that the White House may spin it as being "non patriotic" and hurt them in the 08 election? When as of now,they can say we WILL get out of Iraq if you vote in a Democrat for president.
I disagree. As a political strategy I see why they doing it. IMO I think their current course has potential to backfire. They ran on the Iraq platform in 06 and they haven't done much on that front. They run on the "get out of Iraq platform" in 08, but this time "they really mean it" They didn't do anything after taking control of congress, why should I believe they will do anything after the 08 election?
On the other hand, really push for withdraw now, then they can stand up and say "look at the progress we made in Iraq" I'd be more inclined to vote for them then rather than just taking their "word" again.
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Why? They just took the oath of office in January. It's been less than six months man. They'll make another "show" before the 08 elections. Every time the funds are appropriated,they'll go a round or two with Bush. Then,in 08,they'll have this........................."We tried and tried. But we just couldn't let our troops suffer. It wouldn't have been fair to our troops. We have to put them first. But once we have the White House,nothing can stop us. As you've seen,we've made several attempts,but as long as the GOP control the White House,we don't have the final say. Would you rather we would have let our troops suffer at the hands of Bush without the proper funding?" It'll work like a charm. Sad,but it will work.
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True, they still have time to act. Who knows what will happen between now and next November. I just think that people in general are getting sick of all the political games. And a side that takes action will hold more weight with the voters. Perhaps I am giving the American people too much credit.
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If the media hadn't turned the people against the war we had a chance to do a good thing for Iraq.
Have you guys already started with the excuses as to why we couldn't win an unwinnable war? The media? I thought for sure it was going to be the next leader to take office...
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I agree with you,but I feel they must look at the ramifications. Let's say for example they do cut off "funding for the war". Firstly,the GOP won't call it that. They'll call it "funding our troops". They've already done that. So what people "hear" is that the Dems aren't supporting the "troops". It's a "spin" that many buy into. Would Bush leave the troops in Iraq without funding and blame that on Congress? Would he permit conditions for the troops degrade,leave them there without funding and blame Congress for the conditions? IMO- That's the fear of the Dems. I think there is some validity to that fear. The American public in general doesn';t care much for this war overall. But they DO care about our troops. If there is one thing I think our nation did learn from Vietnam,it was not to blame the soldiers for the decisions of our leaders and politicians. Somehow I wish our leaders and politicians would have learned as much from Vietnam as our nation in general did. Especially when it comes to being an "occupying force" rather than "fighting a war to win it and going home".  JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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If the media hadn't turned the people against the war we had a chance to do a good thing for Iraq.
Have you guys already started with the excuses as to why we couldn't win an unwinnable war? The media? I thought for sure it was going to be the next leader to take office...
Actually Phil I'm not calling it a loss. If the Iraqi Govt can stay in power after we leave its a win in my book. If you are calling it a loss because of the Gurilla warfare then Germany didn't whip the French because even the French had a resistance. But I'm sure you and your Liberal buddies don't see it that way.
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Anyone watch the Indians/Sox sportscenter clip?
They chronicled How the Sox lost more than how the Indians won it.
Maybe I'm starting to lose my mind with ESPN's media bias, but did anyone else notice this too?
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Quote:
Anyone watch the Indians/Sox sportscenter clip?
They chronicled How the Sox lost more than how the Indians won it.
Maybe I'm starting to lose my mind with ESPN's media bias, but did anyone else notice this too?
I know, Now they are beside themselves with the Yankee/ Redsox series coming up. Oh Well, it was fun beating that Japanese pitcher. They paid more for the rights to talkto him than our team salary.( thats an exzageration )
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Legend
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If the Iraqi Govt can stay in power after we leave its a win in my book.
I don't wish to put words in your mouth, so feel free to denounce this assumption, but I think you mean 'if the Iraqi govt. that complies with America can stay in power after we leave it's a win in my book'.
What if the Iraqi govt. stays in power once we leave, but announces it's desire to eradicate Israel and rid the Middle East of U.S. military presence? Would you consider it a victory then?
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If you are calling it a loss because of the Gurilla warfare then Germany didn't whip the French because even the French had a resistance.
First off, your comparison between the invading Germans and the invading Americans is not much different...unjust imperialism.
Beyond that...no the 'resistance' isn't the reason. Most everyone knew the resistance was coming (except, apparently, the Bush administration). I honestly think the Bush administration thought that we'd be 'greeted as liberators'...I believe that they knew Iraq was harmless, but figured that once they toppled Saddam, the people of Iraq would band together with us to fight off the terrorist cells that flooded the country. What happened - as many of us were saying before the war - was that the United States would be involved in maintaining the peace in a civil war while they fight off the Iraqi people who want our presence gone, all the while trying to fend off terrorism in between. So if you manage to quell the civil war (which I doubt...I see Iraq dividing into as few as three separate 'states'), then you still have to fight the citizens who hate you (and as we've given them nothing but more reason to hate us since we've arrived, I doubt we can win them over...especially by violent means), and then you come to the terrorist cells, who by now have grown massively in support in numbers (the Iraq war is the single greatest thing to ever happen to al Qaeda since Clinton's bombings).
So, let's put ourselves into fantasy land where we make the warring factions of the people not only co-exist, but somehow come to love the occupiers who have senselessly murdered innocent civilians and supported the long history of Israeli oppression...you still have the terrorist organizations. You still have Iran, who is now terrified to have the United States right next door, the very people Israel has been practically begging for decades to take them out...So basically, even if every implausible scenario comes true in which this pro-U.S. government is instilled...that government will now be the new Israel.
Basically, the only way to 'win' as far as I see is mass genocide.
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That's what many here fail to realise. The majority of their people WANT us to leave. Their Parliment has voted for US to leave.
At this juncture,the longer we stay,the more resentment we're creating among the Iraqi people.
Do Americanms think that if we stay there,they won't "elect a government" to force us out? I mean we're the one's who wanted to "give them a democracy". What if we don't like the government they "vote for"? What if they ELECT a government who hates us? What will we have gained?
That's what I always tell my grandkids,"Be carefull what you wish for. You just might get it".
The vast majority of Iraqi's are Shia. Iran is Shia. So what will end up with in due time? You tell me..........................
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I think the Iraqi people do see us as Liberators in many cases. Remember the "purple fingers" and pulling down the statues of Saddam. The media would eat dirt before showing any of the good we have done in Iraq.
I think at the end of your rant you called the American troops senseless murderers. Where in the hell do you get all your info about how all the Iraqis hate us.I wish some of the younger military people on here that have been over there would post some info about what really is like in Irag and how there people feel about us. They might even call you a dumbass Phil.
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