DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Alex Mack: Cleveland Browns going in right direction

You do see the Brown and Orange uniforms in the pictures right?



Right, but it was pretty accurate and how we played the rest of the year.

{sigh} Okay lets check out what he did on the Titans.



So recapping...

Horton is a Lebeau disciple. He played under him and got his coaching start from him.

When he was DC at Arizona he ran 2 Gap 3-4 base with multiple looks. He disguised the covs that the DB's ran and used multiple fronts and zone blitzes to confuse the opposing o-line.

When he was DC with the Browns he ran 2 Gap 3-4 base with multiple looks. He disguised the covs that the DB's ran and used multiple fronts and zone blitzes to confuse the opposing o-line.

When he was DC at Tennessee he ran 2 Gap 3-4 base with multiple looks. He disguised the covs that the DB's ran and used multiple fronts and zone blitzes to confuse the opposing o-line.

I don't think you are crazy, you just must not remember us using Phil Taylor, Ahtyba Rubin, and Billy Winn as space eaters while we rushed from all over the place.

Now he will 1 gap some guys depending on the play, but it's mainly 2 gap on the d-line.

I'm kind of politely trying to say the same thing to you. What you remember seeing was not what we ran. The links above were to show you that. Because for some reason you remember something different than what actually happened.

The team that you remember from back then, were they wearing orange and brown uniforms?

Did Taylor or Rubin or Winn look a lot like Warren Sapp in what you remember?

And neither do the Browns, or the Schwartz camp for that matter. That is why you go free and see what someone is willing to pay.

Then everybody knows. Unless Schwartz has instructed his agent that he doesn't want to play in Cleveland, he will let the Browns know where the offers are falling. The Browns will be given a shot to match or beat any offer. If the offers aren't what the Browns offered, he will sign in short order.

very nice lmao

I am not taking sides on this one. However, I do have two questions for both of you. Oh, and you don't have to answer. Just contemplate them before posting again.

1. Are you more interested in educating/learning or winning a debate?

2. Are you both so sure that Horton ran only what you are claiming or could it be that he ran both?

I do have one more question: Would you like some help w/this, guys?

1) I wasn't interested in either when I first posted. Just stating a fact. He didn't like it and asked for links and I showed him links. He claimed the first one wasn't good because it was his first year. So I showed him one when he was with us in 2013, but that wasn't good cause it was based on his first game, so I showed him one from last year then he gives me the you post links but I watch games speil.

2) I already said that on occasion that he might 1 gap a player, but it is a base 2 gap scheme. That's what it was. Our lineman were space eaters. They didn't pin their ears back.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2016/02/alex_mack_could_stay_with_the.html#incart_2box

Alex Mack could stay with the Browns and 3 other takeaways from the NFL Combine

INDIANAPOLIS -- Browns center Alex Mack is serious enough about wanting to remain with the team that he flew to Cleveland last week to meet with Executive Vice President Sashi Brown, coach Hue Jackson and others.

Mack can opt out of his contract by March 4 and stands to hit paydirt. But his roots in Cleveland run deep, and I'm told he'd love to stay.

The Browns can make it happen by making Mack an offer he accepts by March 4. Brown indicated Thursday here that it's not out of the question.

"My estimation would be if he's going to be in Cleveland, we'll get to a deal before his opt-out date,'' Brown said in small-group interview after his podium appearance here.

Mack, one of the few centers on the market, stands to become the first $10 million a year center. Will the Browns be willing to go that high? They certainly have the cap room to do it.

If they don't, they'll likely have to rely on 2015 No. 19 overall pick Cam Erving to anchor the middle. He might not be ready.

The Browns have one of the best centers in the game, and he wants to stay. Seems like a smart way to spend some some of that cash.

"We had good discussions, both Hue and I separately with Alex about how we go about winning in Cleveland and also what his role would be in that,'' said Brown. "He also spent some time with (offensive line coach) Hal Hunter to understand what day-to-day will be like in that O-line room and at practice what will be expected of him. Alex obviously is a very talented center, been a stalwart on our offensive line for a long time. We'll see kind of what his decision ends up being.''

Why Mack will opt out unless the Browns redo his deal by March 4

Why Mack will opt out unless the Browns redo his deal by March 4

Browns Pro Bowl center Alex Mack stands to hit the jackpot again on the open market. The Browns will have to make him an offer he can't refuse to keep him.

He added, "Alex, in fairness to him, it's important that he come back, understands what his role is going to be with the organization and our vision for winning.''

2. Talks never broke off with Travis Benjamin after all

Despite Benjamin's agent, Ron Butler, telling NFL Network this week that contract talks ended, that was never really the case. The Browns always planned to meet with Butler here at the combine, and that happened Wednesday night.

"I had a good conversation with him,'' Brown said. "Trav and I text back and forth once or twice.''

Benjamin is another player who would like to stay. His wife, Africa, is a radio personality in Cleveland and the couple like the area. Benjamin loves playing for the Browns and never intended to leave.

The two sides aren't believed to be in the ballpark yet, but a lot can happen between now and March 7, when other teams can start negotiating.

3. The Browns would like a long-term deal with Tashaun Gipson

Gipson has been expected to attract plenty of interest in free agency, but Brown said Thursday the Browns would like to sign him to a long-term deal. Brown left open the slight possibility that the Browns would franchise Gipson at an estimated $10.6 million, but it's unlikely. The deadline is March 1.

"We don't expect (to),'' said Brown. "We know those are kind of tools in the toolbox here but we don't expect to do that. We would hope to come to a long-term deal with Tashaun, so I don't expect it at this point.''

Gipson's camp hadn't heard much from the Browns, but Brown apologized to all of the free agents for the delays. They'll likely meet here at the combine.

"We're behind two or three weeks,'' he said. "When you're on a coaching search you're not able to spend as much time as we would have liked focusing on our rising unrestricted free agents' extensions. But they're all talented guys, can contribute.''
He said they'll also try to re-sign restricted free agents Craig Robertson, Tank Carder and Johnson Bademosi.

"But we won't be panicked if we end up with not some of those guys back. We'll have a good plan to move forward. We do have a number of young players on the roster. As Hue said, it's next man up always for us.''

4. Is Hue Jackson still in love with Colin Kaepernick?

Kaepernick wants out of San Francisco according to multiple reports. The Browns are linked to him because Jackson praised Kaepernick coming out of the draft in 2011.

He thought Kaepernick was the best quarterback in that draft, which included No. 1 pick Cam Newton.

When he was coach of the Raiders in 2011, he wanted to trade up to draft Kaepernick, but it didn't work out. In 2013, Jackson told Peter King of si.com that "we wanted the kid in the worst way.''

He acknowledged that the late Raiders owner Al Davis was upset, too.

"Scouting him, I fell in love with the kid,'' said Jackson. "Leader, won a ton of games at Nevada, really impressive when you talked to him, strong, all the tools to win in the NFL. No doubt in my mind he was going to be good.''

Of course, Kaepernick tanked last season, and it remains to be seen what Jackson thinks of him. I'm guessing the Browns will still draft a quarterback No. 2 overall and build the team around that player.

That's all very optimistic, which means I'm probably setting myself up for disappointment.

Here is an article that pretty well explains Ray Horton's defense along with the one and two gap meaning.

Fans, and people in general, like to put things into a box. Categorically defining things allows wholesale, black and white conclusions to be reached definitely and swiftly. And, we've seen this pretty clearly since the announcement of the hiring of Ray Horton as the Titans defensive coordinator. You've all heard the line:
"The Titans run a 4-3 defense. Ray Horton runs a 3-4 defense. What does this mean for our personnel?"

Like most things, especially those pertaining to a defensive scheme, the answer isn't nearly as clean as fans would like. Ray Horton said as much during his first press conference with the Browns last year:

"I don't really care what we are on defense," Horton said. "I want to know what are we going to look like. We're going to look like an aggressive, forward-attacking defense . . . and I've seen that on tape.

"That's the most important thing to me – what do we look like, not what we line up in. We may be a 3-4 on one snap. We may be a 4-3 on another snap. I guarantee you we'll be a 5-2 sometimes, and we'll be a 4-4 sometimes. We are a multi-front, attacking defense, and that's the most important thing."

...

"That may mean one snap being 5-2, the next snap it may be 4-4. It will be predicated by what the offense does. We have athletes that can stand up, that can put their hand in the ground, that can run, so that's why I go back to the multi-front defense.

"I can't tell you what we're going to be right now. It depends on who we line up game one against and what do we need to take away."

This is exactly what you want to hear out of a coordinator. Multiple and adaptive. And, really, as we'll see, the things players will be asked to do up front shouldn't be all that different than what they were asked to do in 2013. Now, while the tasks may be the same - specifically one gapping - the execution will be quite a bit different. First things first, let's get to basics.
The 3-4 Defense

3-4_medium

3-4 Defensive Front

This is a basic 3-4 look. The premise is fairly simple. The nose tackle and both defensive ends are going to be head up on a lineman. By this, I mean they won't shade one way or another. Post snap, their goal is to hold their ground and eat up both gaps to their right and left. This is referred to as two gapping (as they are occupying two gaps). If executed correctly, this allows effectively all primary gaps to be occupied, allowing for linebackers to freely pursue the football.

Now, as you can imagine, the depth of this conversation far exceeds one basic paragraph. The basic take home here, for the purposes of our discussion, is the idea of two gapping. When discussing wholesale defensive changes, generally it's this principle that requires the largest personnel change. The disruptive, gap shooting defensive lineman is generally a different variety than a lineman that's asked to two gap. It's this overlying idea that leads to fear mongering among a fanbase when a 3-4 coordinator comes to town. But, remove the two gapping principles, and you're mostly just looking at window dressing on a basic 4-3 Under front - that being that the weakside EMLOS is standing as opposed to having his hand in the dirt.
The 4-3 Over/Under

4-3over_medium

4-3 Over Defensive Front

4-3under_medium

4-3 Under Defensive Front

Above are the two basic 4-3 fronts. Over/Under refers to the positioning of the linemen. Over positions the strength to the offense's strongside (where the TE is aligned). Under positions the strength of the defense to the weakside of the offense. In an under front, you'll note that both the weakside defensive tackle and defensive end are isolated. This is not the case in the Over front, where the TE potentially can act as an additional blocker. For this reason, many coaches prefer the Under front as a method to get after the passer with a talented DE and DT.

You'll also note in this formation that all the personnel is "one gapping". The guys up front aren't occupying space. Rather, they are attacking gaps. Similarly, the linebackers are now just responsible for the gap in front of them (just in general - gap exchanges aren't uncommon from play to play).

A couple other odds and ends regarding lineman technique. Just like there are gaps, coaches also refer to lineman positioning along the line by number. The guys at Pro Football Focus have a great image diagramming this:

D-line-alignment-and-gaps-copy_medium

So, in a 3-4, when the NT is "two gapping", he's in a zero technique. The two gapping ends are in a 5 technique. You'll note that both of those are head up alignments.

Alternatively, in the one gap alignment, the defensive tackles are generally shaded to one side or another, in a 1 technique or 3 technique. This allows them to shoot the gap they're assigned to.

Again, all this is intended to just act as a primer. As you start adding layers, things begin to get a lot more complex.

With a base for the discussion now in place, where does Ray Horton fit into all of this?

Screen_shot_2014-01-20_at_1

Turn on any given play for a Ray Horton defense, and this is likely the front you're going to see. By that, I mean that this is generally his base alignment. His scheme is probably best defined as "multiple". But, for those of you looking to put it into a box, I'd say it has a lot more 4-3 Under tendencies than it does 3-4. (It's hybrid in the sense that it's 3-4 by personnel, but 4-3 Under in function.) Probably the most important of which is that the front seven typically "one gaps". You'll note that based on the alignment above, which is basically reflective of the 4-3 Under diagram (note, the outermost defender on the left is a defensive back in man coverage).

What I've learned about Horton is that what you see is often not what you get based on pre-snap alignment:

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This play is a 5 man rush that includes a Mike linebacker blitz. But, it's the stunt by the weakside end (or OLB/Buck) and tackle that makes the play hum. Now, this isn't reinventing the wheel, in fact we saw this quite a bit from the Titans this past year. These types of things are commonplace for Horton. Especially on passing downs, the goal is to attack protection schemes. By moving guys around to different gaps, stress is put on the offensive line to handle the exchange correctly.

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Notice the rushers on the weakside (right) of this play. Presnap they show A and B gap pressure. Post snap they slant strong side to the next gap (both A gaps). The weakside linebacker follows behind the end and gets free totally clean through the B gap. When you talk about schematic pressure, this is exactly the type of play that would come up. Scheme created this pressure. But, I also included this play as a reminder that it's not always X's and O's, sometimes it's Jimmy's and Joe's. The play gets pressure exactly as drawn up on the whiteboard, but, the corner can't execute the tackle in space.

Ibxbxfgbapd6ol

A final play I wanted to include was a standard run blitz. All the gaps are filled (note, one gapping) and the SS steps up and makes the play. In this case, the defense lines up and executes exactly what it shows.

What does this mean for the Titans front seven?

I think to say that we are going to run a 3-4, two-gap defense that is not what we are going to do.

-Ken Whisenhunt, Introductory Press Conference

Things should feel very similar for our front seven. The concerns about Casey being pigeonholed into a two gap, NT spot are probably overstated. I'd expect him to remain in an attacking 3 technique. Perhaps this means his position is renamed as DE, but the function will remain the same. Linebackers should largely remain unaffected. Same goes for tackles for the most part. I do expect Hill to be asked to two gap some. Same goes for Pitoitua. My hope is to elaborate more on this in a future post, but my expectation would be more of a hybrid front where we two gap on one side and one gap on the other.

The biggest question mark for me is the Open End spot. In the Under, this is often referred to as the LEO position. In a 3-4, it's sometimes called a Jack rusher. Buck is also a common name for the isolated EMLOS. Whatever you want to call it, this spot has me a little more intrigued. In both Arizona and Cleveland, he dropped this rusher somewhat frequently into coverage. I wouldn't go as far as to say it was common, but it certainly happened more than we currently see from our current ends. They did, however, have more athletic DE/OLB hybrid type players. The thing about Horton is he doesn't appear to be overly dogmatic, so I can't see him forcing a square peg into a round hole. Still, I wonder how those responsibilities play out (or if they are removed altogether). Wimbley has fit in this spot in the past, but, in my opinion, hasn't shown production to be relied upon as the primary pass rusher. I like Morgan's skill set, but he doesn't fit on the open side. That is, I'm comfortable with him as a pass rusher, but wouldn't want him dropping into coverage. He'll fit just fine on the strong side. To me, this is the biggest hole for Horton if he wants to continue to take the same approach. It's one that will need to be addressed either via free agency or early in the draft.

This is just scratching the surface. My intention is to elaborate more on Horton's other sub packages he likes to mix in, as well as the coverage shells that he runs behind these fronts. The biggest takehome I got from watching film of Horton's defenses was excitement. The pressure schemes are phenomenal, but not reckless. He manages to create solid pressure, though often times it's not at the expense of gap integrity. That said, as pointed out in the second GIF, exercise patience. The scheme may be sound, but you need the guys capable of executing. We're pretty close in that aspect, but still sorely missing some good linebacker play and a true pass rusher. We might make a leap to a top 10 unit in 2014, but know that we just landed one of the best defensive coordinators in the NFL. He'll have this unit headed in the right direction.

Ray Horton's Hybrid Defense

Maybe this will help our discussion/dispute because I think you are both kind of right, but more then anything the defense he runs uses both the one and two gap depending on down and distance as well as situational awareness.

What about Schwartz ?

May the Schwartz be with you!!!

Hey Farmville..great post.

That's actually the same article that tab posted and the author is trying to tell titans fans not to panic because they had 4-3 personnel and Ray is a 3-4 coach.

The part tab highlighted...



That was the author trying to say "don't worry we can still one-gap in Ray's scheme"

Notice that Ray just talked about multiple fronts not anything about multiple gap assignments.

The only gap assignment quotes are quotes from the author.

I have said before that Ray will occasionally give a guy a 1 gap job, but that doesn't change the fact that his defense is a base 2-gap system.

That isn't mentioning the fact that we really don't have any 1 gap personnel on the roster other than maybe Xavier Cooper. Armonty Bryant would have been a good fit, but I doubt he's back now.

The closest thing you are going to see from Ray as far as a consistent 1 gap assignment would be like what he did with Calais Campbell for the Cards. Because of his skill set, Ray 1 gapped him about 30% of the time. The other 2 thirds he 2 gap responsibilities.

Jurell Casey had a similar situation in 2015, but that was only after they brought in Dick Lebeau to run the defense. Under Ray in 2014, Jurell had a hard time fitting in. Once Dick Came in they ran more 4-3 under looks and Casey excelled again.

If you call it one gap, I'd like to know who actually played the 1 and 3 techniques for us. You can call it the hot chocolate defense for all I care, just point out to me where the marshmallows are.

J/c

Thought Mack hitting the market was a done deal. It still may happen but there's a gleam men. Mack flying back to Cleveland and discussions with FO was both unexpected and encouraging. Sashis' recent comments look like we are at least engaging in trying to not let some of these guys test the market.

Thanks for posting that article.

I have to say that I found the news very encouraging. Loved hearing what he had to say about Mack and Gipson. Those are the two main guys that need to be signed. I want Schwartz, too......but he ain't no LT.

The article was great until the end. I don't want no part of Kapernick.

If we break the bank to sign both Mack and Schwartz, then I would say it's pretty guaranteed that we will be drafting a QB at #2.

Again, I would not break the bank for Schwartz.

I don't know if I would either. I do know that he is one of the best pass blocking right tackles in the league and that would be nice to have with a rookie QB.

Having the line we would have if Mack and Schwartz are retained would really give a rookie QB a leg up. Just off the top of my head, most of the recent highly drafted QBs got stuck behind some bad offensive lines (Mariota, Winston, Bortles, etc.)

I would not draft a qb w/the second overall pick, either.

Obviously.

Just saying that is a pretty good situation to walk into.

Even our vanilla defense had seven sacks against the Titans last year.

Hopefully, Scwartz will accept a deal that pays him as one of the better RTs in the league. I don't have any proof, but I think he is going to want more than that.

What's up w/Cordy Glenn's negotiations? Have you heard anything?

The Bills are currently in cap hell. They're going to have to cut a bunch of guys just to have a chance at re-signing their free agents.

http://overthecap.com/calculator/buffalo-bills

My guess is that Schwartz and Glenn get similar deals.

Thanks.

Makes me wonder if I wouldn't rather have Glenn if that's the case. Glenn could play LT if Joe got hurt.

Yep.

To add, I do not believe that site accounts for the the $4.4M+ the Bills rolled over from last year. Additionally, they may release Mario Williams saving about $12M in cap space, however, the latest news states the Williams may be willing to renegotiate his current contract.

I could see a guy like Manny Lawson being a cap casualty too, to free up a few million.

The site does include the money the Bills rolled over.

They are screwed.

I read that a lot on here and what's funny is, I don't hear much about what alternative we have.

I mean, do you want to put Cameron over there? You know, maybe he'll get good, but today, I don't see it.

What alternative do you see for us if Schwartz leaves?

Thanks, was not sure. Bye bye Mario. The McCoy contract is helping matters either.

That would be great. But maybe he just said that so they would leave him alone and let him enjoy himself. Until they put pen to paper I'm not going to let myself get excited about it.

Re-sign Mitchell! Give him the low-mid range of LT money. The disparity in skill level between LT and RT is lessening these days anyway...

again Eo,, I have no problem letting anyone go as long as we have a replacement with no dropoff. I mean that with all my heart, you could replace Joe Thomas as far as I'm concerned if you replace him with an upgrade. There isn't one out there.

Maybe Erving, Maybe Paztor doesn't do it for me.

As for Schwartz, if they go out and get a guy in FA that replaces him and we don't have a dropoff, I'm good with that. Even if they Draft a kid to replace him I'm good with that as well.

What if Schwartz leaves, could we move Bitonio to RT and leave Paztor at LG. It seemed as though the run game improved while he was at LG. I always thought that it was said that Bitonio could play tackle.

Just a thought