DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Alex Mack: Cleveland Browns going in right direction

The Brown's FO can offer his agent anything at anytime. But yea it's up to Mack if he wants to accept it then of course the existing contract is voided.

j/c

Well it's all kind of dependent on what the baseball guy says after he runs the numbers.

We cannot change anything with that deal, but we can begin re-negotiating a new deal at any time.

At this point, I'm betting that he will indeed opt out simply to hit the market and truly find out his real market value and maximize his guaranteed money. I cannot fault him for that. Hopefully, we'll be able to get him to come back here and finish his career as a Brown.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2016/02/cleveland_browns_mitchell_schwartz.html

We have to keep one of Schwartz or Mack. I'd tag Schwartz at this point.

I would too, if a deal can't be reached, obviously. Unless the Browns are going for their lowest payroll award. Which, oddly, seems to make the fans proud/comfy that we have a lot of cap space that never seem to be used.

yea why would we pay him LT money to play RT...rather keep Mack at this point

He'll make LT money if they tag him. I'd still do it because IMO, losing Mack would be easier to absorb than losing Schwartz.

Schwartz is the best right tackle in the league? really?

nah I believe they have at 5th-10th in the league but...yea..I guess I didn't pay much attention to his game last year..

That would be ignorant. You don't pay RTs that need help from TEs and RBs the kind of money you pay elite LTs. It's beyond ignorant.

and that's probably why the FO is focusing on keeping mack over him right now. the guy wants way too much money for needing all kind of help.

According to PFF, yes.

I like Schwartz and I hope the Browns keep him, but those rankings are off. They obviously fail to consider that Joe T needs almost zero help and that allows the Browns to give Schwartz more help.

I ain't knocking him, but man, he is not THAT good!

Why? Are we in jeopardy of running out cap space anytime soon? Hell, the cap seemingly increases by a margin of 10%+/- each year. Elite money today is league average money tomorrow.

There is going to be a record $1B+ in cap space this FA period. It is preached to build through the draft, yet when it comes time to re-up our homegrown quality players, we'd rather win the tough contract negotiation award instead of on Sunday's.

well, IMO, the problem is that even though we have cap space, we need playmakers.

our line has been good for a handful of years now, but how many wins has that led to?

i understand the importance of the OL, but they don't score touchdowns, or get int's.

No doubt we need playmakers. This roster is the bubonic plague of rosters. My point is, there is plenty of money to go around. Let's not create additional holes on the roster unnecessarily.

If a player is hell bent on getting out of town and testing the FA water, well then, c'est la vie.

I'm pretty sure it was written into mack's contract that he cannot be franchised.

I think his opt out time comes after the last day to tag someone because he is not a true Free Agent. I could be wrong, but that was my understanding.

You pay guys what their market value says you pay them. Or you let them go if you think it's too much. The market says that Schwartz should (and will) get paid like a left tackle (I'm not sure there is much difference between right and left tackles anymore).

http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/09/16/left-tackle-value
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/0ap...O-line-position
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nfl--left-t...d-position.html
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/911487...e-espn-magazine

Edit: Not saying left tackle is not important, saying that right tackle could be just as important.

Solid post. Well researched.

There was a portion of Peter King's MMQB where he wrote how increasingly important RT are getting because defenses are moving their best pass rushers around and putting them up against RTs more than ever. Ex. Schwartz v Von Miller.

And for the record, as far as last year is concerned, I saw Schwartz getting next to zero 'help' from a RB or TE. Barnidge was running routes and neither Duke or Crowell did anything to assist Schwartz. He was on an island, just like Joey.

There isn't that much difference. Some time back I said that teams can reduce the impact of Thomas by not putting their best edge rusher on him. Teams do that. You need two solid pass blockers at tackle.

The guy is going to test the market. He probably should because at this juncture, the value the Browns place on him and the value he thinks he has are not close. In the next few weeks, we will find out which side is correct. At that point, maybe we can come to agreement.

Good information, but I don't think Schwartz is an elite tackle. Joe gets almost no help. He is on an island. Schwartz gets help and also gives up way more pressure.

I see a lot of people are buying into this theory that RTs are just as important as LTs. Let me ask those who believe that these questions:

--Which side is the strong side on most plays for teams that have right handed qbs?

--What makes that side the strong side?

--Does it help a OT to have a TE beside him?

--Does getting chip blocks from backs also help an OT?


Again, I think Schwarz is a very good player, but I don't think he is elite. He still gets beat to the outside by quick pass rushers. He still blows assignments and lets defenders go inside of him when there is no one to his outside. I am NOT saying he stinks. I am saying he is a solid RT that has a few flaws. I would pay him very good money, but he is not in the category of guys like Joe Thomas.

Regarding OL play: I ran behind good offensive lines and one pretty bad one. I coached the offensive line for 3 years. I was a HC who had placed a lot of importance on OL play. I scouted for years. I'm not just some guy throwing out opinions that I hope will stick. You guys can learn or argue. Your choice.

Why does this have to devolve to comparing Joe Thomas to Mitchell Schwartz? Why not consider that Schwartz is in a very good spot in his career because of the position he plays and the increasing importance of it. Everyone here knows when broadly discussing tackles, Schwartz doesn't compare to Thomas. For the sake of everyone's sanity, let's not bring that up again. We ALL know the answer. We all concede that point.

What is being compared is the increasingly important value the RT "position" has in protecting the QB against TOP pass rushers, because what teams are now doing schematically, and quite frankly, the transformation of the pass rushers themselves. Von Miller played against MS. I think Miller went up against the Panthers right-side of the line in the Super Bowl.

Pass rushers are increasingly getting faster and faster and faster....probably at a rate far quicker than tackles can catch up physically to meet that demand. The speed and versatility of a pass rushing DE/OLB, IMO, is becoming more a part of the equation than whether the QB is right-handed or not(although the blind side will always be an important factor of many). The mashers on the right side may not be as relevant anymore. Schwartz is not a masher and I think NFL teams and the market recognizes that and it potentially fits into the direction of right tackle value, at least for the time being.

Mitchell's next contract is a by product of the evolution of his position and he will be paid as the tackle market changes. And nice resume dropping towards the end although I am interested knowing what level of scouting and coaching this was. I think people recognize your knowledge for the game, but it goes both ways....these articles (and others not even listed) about what is going on with the RT position is coming from people who have either played professional football, talk with coaches and players in the NFL for their entire careers and see things far more up close than you do.

So, to quote you...."You can learn or argue. Your choice."

Vers, you bring up some good questions, but at the same time, I think Schwartz ended up on an island a lot. Teams don't use TE's like they used to. Barnidge was running a lot of routes, and our backs were generally poor at pass blocking/chipping.

Schwartz has improved a lot in pass pro and is not a liability one on one with a pass rusher. I'm not saying give him Joe Thomas money, but he could be hard to replace. The "he slowed down Von Miller" narrative is driving up his price. I'm not sure what a fair number on Schwartz would be.

Thank you for pointing this out.

I was not trying to say that Schwartz, or any RT, always gets help. I am saying that they are covered up by a TE on most plays.

I am also saying that a lot of times, teams run Two-TE sets. Think about it: how many times did you see Barnidge and Dray in the line-up together? Teams even put three TEs on the field at times.

The Von Miller narrative is misleading. The guy who wrote that article had no clue what he was talking about. He looked at the numbers, but I guarantee he did not watch the video of that game. Deputy and I addressed that at the time. I do think that Schwartz had a nice game, but he did not face Miller on every play and he got a lot of help when he did.

Look, some people wanna make this black and white. I am NOT saying you are, but there are people who do. I am NOT saying Schwartz sucks. I AM saying he is a good player. I AM saying I hope the Browns pay him well and keep him. I just CAN't say that he is one of top tackles [that includes both L and R tackles] in the entire NFL.

I wanna backtrack for a minute about that Schwartz/Von Miller article and some other articles that have been written recently.

I think there are some knowledgeable journalists out there. I certainly understand that they "hear" more news than we can ever hope to. However, the majority of these guys do NOT understand the intricate details of the X's and O's, for lack of a better term. I often find that these reporters are way off base when it comes to where guys should be at in different coverages, who blew the assignment in pass protection, who was really responsible for the seemingly inaccurate throw, who was really at fault for allowing a blitzer to come through untouched, who was out of position on running plays, who is really doing his job on the DL and who isn't, etc.

I will even expound on the last one. There are some d-linemen that make 2 or 3 huge plays each game. Reporters and fans praise the guy. Saying how disruptive he is. Meanwhile, the guy is showing no gap integrity and just tries to choose a side and make those big plays, which effectively takes him out of the majority of running plays and the team is gashed repeatedly. After the game, the guy is praised for playing hard and making plays while the rest of the defense is trashed for giving up so many rushing yards.

Look, I don't speak about things this passionately if I do NOT know what I am talking about. And again........I like Schwartz. I think he is a good RT. He just is not one of the top offensive tackles in the NFL.

I think part of the reason people are saying this is that for the first time I can remember, this year the majority of the sack leaders lined up primarily against the RTs.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/defense/sort/sacks/year/2015/seasontype/2

1) JJ Watt 17.5 (lines up at LE in a 3-4... the idea he "moves all over" is severely overblown.)
2) Khalil Mack 15.0 (primarily LE or SLB according to team website and Ourlads depth charts.)
3) Ezekiel Ansah 14.5 (right defensive end)
4) Carlos Dunlap 13.5 (left end)
5) Chandler Jones 12.5 (right end)
6) Mo Wilkerson 12.0(!) (3-4 LE)
6) Whitney Mercilus 12.0 (LOLB)
8) Von Miller 11.0 (LOLB)
8, 8, 8) Aaron Donald, Kawann Short, Geno Atkins (DTs)

What I don't know is if this is a result of splitting the TE out wide more often, or TEs not being as good of blockers, or sending them on pass routes more, or teams moving their best pass rusher to the left side, or the run/pass balance being so shifted that defenders are thinking pass-first regardless of position.

Exactly. The game is changing, evolving and on all sides of the spectrum. I don't believe Mitchell needed as much aide as as people seem to indicate here. These days you'll see a rusher line up all over. Hell, we even did it with Paul Kruger.

It's important to have both sides covered and the RT just being a run blocker, those days are over. If you have that, defenses will exploit it.

Horton runs a two gap 3-4. He likes to disguise movement by the defensive backs and zone blitz a lot, but the line assignments are basically two-gap.

Well it's what we ran when he was here last time, but he was a Dick Lebeau disciple and runs a version of his scheme.

Here's a scouting report on us from Baltimore the last time Horton was coaching here.

http://baltimoresportsandlife.com/know-your-enemy-cleveland-browns-defense/

Know Your Enemy: Cleveland Browns Defense

After another disappointing showing in 2012 (5-11), the Cleveland Browns decided it was time to revamp their entire regime. HC Pat Shurmer, OC Brad Childress, and DC Dick Jauron were fired before new HC Rod Chudzinski, OC Norv Turner, and DC Ray Horton were hired. Much has been made about how QB Brandon Weeden will fit into Norv Turner’s downfield passing attack but the biggest change in the Browns philosophy came on the defensive side of the ball.

Discuss this piece on our Message Board.

I can’t imagine a realistic shift in coaching scheme more dramatic than the Jauron to Horton transformation. Jauron preached a bend-but-don’t-break Tampa-2 based defense that relied on the front four for its pass rush. This style shows up as amazingly vanilla on film as they rarely even mixed in blitzing linebackers.

Horton comes from the LeBeau lineage which uses a 2-gapping 3-4 scheme with disguised motion in the secondary that reveals unpredictable zone blitzing once the ball is snapped. The defensive scheme is based on confusion and often preys upon quarterbacks who have yet to grasp progression reading at the NFL level.

The personnel Horton uses isn’t perfect, but they have the majority of the pieces in place that can minimize opponent’ scoring enough to give their less-than-stellar offense a chance.

The Stout Front Seven

There is no question that the front seven is the strength of this Browns defense. The defensive line boasts the 2-gap, space-eating abilities of Billy Winn and Phil Taylor while adding the impressively forceful Desmond Bryant in free-agency. Jabaal Sheard is an underrated pass-rusher in his own right, but with the acquisition of Paul Kruger and Quinton Groves along with the drafting of Barkevious Mingo (OUT), this defense has the flexible stand-up OLBs it needs to execute this zone-blitz scheme.

Backing the D-Line and OLBs is ILBs D’Qwell Jackson and Craig Robertson. Jackson is a gap-shooting thumper who moves incredibly well and tackles soundly in the open field. Robertson is a bit more of a finesse linebacker who will take on fullbacks but prefers to scrape over the top and make plays after the defense has spilled the ball-carrier toward him. Both of these ‘backers struggle a bit in pass coverage, particularly in man.

Ray Horton blitzes more than most defenses in this league. Week 1 was no exception as this Pie Chart via Dawgs by Nature shows:


They had one snap where they rushed 2 and dropped 9 on 3rd down.
To complement the depth and superior personnel upfront, Horton is a wizard at scheming blitz:

Pre-snap, linebacker D’Qwell Jackson is showing blitz in the B-Gap. With LB Robertson tilted toward the nearest receiver (off-screen), the number of rushers can equal to five. DTs Desmond Bryant and Billy Winn will execute a T-T Stunt where Bryant will crash into the A-gap (between Guard and Center) and Winn will scoop into the far-side B-gap. This will cause confusion in the left side of the protection.

This rush is effectively an overload blitz once Winn scoops to the defense’s left and after Bryant occupies the center, the offense is left with a LT, LG, and RB to take on three very good rushers. The results weren’t pretty.



#90 Billy Winn is scooping from his 2-tech alignment while RB Lamar Miller attempts to stalemate D’Qwell Jackson. Jackson swims over Miller after minimal impediment. Lastly, CB Chris Owens (#21) has joined the rush to create even more pressure.



The race to the QB is on. RB Lamar Miller is chasing his assignment in the middle. Paul Kruger has bent the edge on the far left side and both Billy Winn AND Desmond Bryant are running unabated for Tannehill.

With all this pressure from the trenches, there must be a receiver wide-open right?

http://baltimoresportsandlife.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/2Dblitz4.png

At the time of the throw, man-coverage was strong down the field. A rushed Tannehill was forced to throw early to the middle of the field for an incompletion.

Mission: Take Away Mike Wallace

This Ray Horton led defense rarely showed the same alignment or pressure twice. However, the main constant throughout their Week 1 loss to the Dolphins was scheming to minimize Miami’s biggest offensive threat, Mike Wallace. CB Joe Haden never left Mike Wallace throughout the game. Additionally, there were a number of wrinkles added that reduced the number of pure man-coverage snaps between Haden and Wallace.

Cleveland would often play Cover-6 where Haden remained in the low Curl/Flat zone (Cloud) while a Safety played over the top. When Haden played a deep zone they would buzz a linebacker or safety underneath of Wallace to take away shorts throws. On top of the scheme, Haden was successful in man-coverage (allowing one completion all game and dropping an interception). Haden’s strength is playing press-man and then mirroring the receiver down the sideline on vertical routes. This can be an issue for the Ravens as Haden will be glued to Torrey Smith during the game on Sunday. It is unlikely that Haden will be beaten over the top without a) an offensive playcall to entice a Safety away and/or b) superior route-running via angles and acceleration.

What can the Ravens do?

The good news for Ravens fans is that outside of Joe Haden, the remainder of the secondary is not particularly strong. Free Safety Tashaun Gipson has speed but doesn’t always take the best angles and he certainly doesn’t have the range of an elite single-high safety. T.J. Ward is more fit for the Strong Safety role but you wouldn’t think Horton knows or cares about this as Ward and Gipson play in interchangeable positions. Lastly, 2nd and 3rd CBs Buster Skrine and Chris Owens are undersized and can be baited into taking poor angles using average route execution.

Ray Horton must have endless faith in his secondary players as he often puts them in uncomfortable positions for the sake of pressuring the QB:



Pre-snap, this play looks like generic two-deep, man-under coverage (2-Man). But Horton brings all seven players in the box (circled in red) to pressure Tannehill.



This play boils down to man-coverage with FS Gipson having to cover WR Brandon Gibson (confusing, I know) after being aligned 14 yards away. This is an easy completion to the vacated middle.

Quick Notes on the Ravens Strategy

Flacco will need to build rapport with slot receivers like Stokley and Dickson fast because their coverage assignments will often take advantage of their proximity to the formation and blitz. This will leave sight-adjustments open.
The Ravens will not have much success on the ground versus this Front-Seven (The Browns allowed 20 yards(!) on 23 carries versus the Dolphins). Therefore Rice will need to be a big part of the pass game. Jackson will likely have the majority of man-coverage assignments and he can be beaten in space.
When the Dolphins flexed a tight-end, LB Craig Robertson played him in the slot. On Sunday, the Ravens can flex or motion this tight-end relatively wide to remove a linebacker from the box to increase the running odds. Robertson can also be beaten in coverage with crossing routes over the middle. This will likely be a cat-and-mouse game all day as removing a tight-end from the formation leaves the O-line vulnerable to pass rush.
LBs Jackson and Robertson like to “sugar” the A-gaps (i.e. feign blitz). The middle of the field will be left open a good deal of the time. In-breaking routes can create big gains and dissuade the Browns from blitzing.
Haden will play Torrey Smith all game. I don’t expect more than 3 catches from Torrey unless he is brought into the slot. But if the Ravens use two receivers (Brown, Doss, Stokley) stacked on the opposite side of the field, they will get matchups with Skrine and Owens. These two corners habitually line up next to each other at the same depth from the LOS so man-beater routes that “pick” these defenders (e.g. “Dagger“, Slant/Flat) can be successful.
The Browns safeties do not play with a lot of depth in 2-high looks (Cover/Tampa-2, Quarters) and T.J. Ward is aggressive downhill at his core. Deep plays that put pressure on these safeties (“Pin“, Double Post) may be successful.
The over-aggressive Browns front-seven bring a lot of backside pressure on run plays. This over-pursuit can leave Flacco open for boot-action. The slip screens to Vonta Leach we know so well will likely be in the gameplan.
This Browns defense is a formidable foe. Flacco will get confused at times and the Offensive Line will be leaky due to enhanced pressure. Offensive scheme will be more important than ever. Play-action and targeting the linebackers in coverage will be key. I have little doubt that this will be a low scoring affair on Sunday.

It's their scouting report on us. It has nothing to do with Dick Lebeau. The one game was most likely the game that we played right before them.

You will see him mix up defensive fronts and you will see some guys one gapping every now and then, but it is a base 2 gap system.

Here's what Darnell Dockett said about it it when Ray left the Cards.

http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2013/5/8/4313188/darnell-dockett-on-ray-hortons-scheme-i-hated-it

Darnell Dockett on Ray Horton's Scheme: "I Hated It"

I guess you can't win over everyone.

Despite all of the praise we have heard universally about new Cleveland Browns defensive coordinator Ray Horton, at least one of his former players is happy to see his scheme disappear: veteran defensive lineman Darnell Dockett. It didn't sound like Dockett was just trying to butter up to Cardinals new defensive coordinator Todd Bowles either:

Former defensive coordinator Ray Horton ran a 3-4 alignment in which the defensive linemen were used in part to keep the offensive linemen off the linebackers. Aggressive moves took a back seat to scheme, and Dockett was arguably the most frustrated with his two-gap duties.

"It’s like a million pounds off your shoulders," said Docket, regarding the switch away from Horton's scheme. "Personally, I had nothing against Ray. But I hated that scheme. I really hated it. I played it because I needed to. But this defense [Bowles' 2013 defense for Arizona] is based on guys and what their ability allows them to be good at. What they were drafted for."

Not including a blowout loss against the Seahawks last season, Arizona's defense was exceptional in 2012. Even if Dockett wasn't digging his role, you can't argue the effectiveness the scheme netted. It does make you wonder if any members of the Browns' defensive line will share similar feelings, though. It might help that Cleveland has more youth there while Dockett is a 10-year veteran.

J/C

We can't afford to loose two vet's up front on oline in the same year. Too bad we didn't draft more oline last year.