DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Sashi Brown is Promoted VP Ops

you must have missed this part?

"Farmer vs. Pettine, though those two certainly had their problems that boiled over to the field."

Vers, I think you are taking this a little out of context, and I'm not being confrontational here. First, what exactly is a football guy and non-football guy? All the Harvard guys played football, so it is not like they never seen or heard of the game. Secondly, what traditional "football guy" GM is willing to unlearn what got him success to rely on analytics?

It appears Haslam is more into numbers as oppose to believing one GM's opinion. It seems to me a case of objective thinking vs. subjective thinking.

" First, what exactly is a football guy and non-football guy?"
Vers,if I may;

The obvious answer to your question.
Look at the FO makeup of all the other 31 teams,those are football men.
Look at the Browns FO,they all wear pocket protectors,those are non football men.

Oh, I get it. If you do you like everyone else, you know football. If you apply math, you have no knowledge of football. You do know football people have a college education maybe even a degree.

Yo bugs; I get what you are saying, but there's not a thing wrong with questioning the wisdom of having non-football people running the show now in Cleveland.

Oh I saw that part, and I am glad to admit that Pet, and Farmer did not agree 100 percent on everything. BUT they could disagree, hash it out between themselves and move on like MEN. They didn't hold grudges, and back stab each other like many people seem to think. I swear some of you guys seem like gossip queens

I think you're being intentionally obtuse.
It's pretty simple:

If your chosen profession all your life is football, and it is all you've worked in and it is what you've studied and practiced - you're a football man.

If your chosen profession all your life is mathematics/statistical analysis, and it is all you've worked in and it is what you've studied and practiced - you're not a football man, you're a mathematician.

If your chosen profession all your life is law, and it is all you've worked in and it is what you've studied and practiced - you're not a football man, you're a lawyer.


The real question at stake is whether or not there is logic in a non-football person being the ultimate say on football decisions.

My thinking is that as long as they are informed of the football facts applying to those decisions, and give those facts the appropriate weight, and understand the empirical WHY's behind things, then I see no reason for them not to be - especially when they can bring an additional specialized skill set to the table that helps further discussions and decision making.

Are you saying football guys can't be good at math?

well to be fair, I dont think romeo could count past 10 without removing his shoes.

Negative. Actually the opposite. Many are using the term "non-football guy" to mean over educated. If I'm a lawyer or mathematician, I can't do football.

I simply don't understand what everyone's definition is when they reference football guy vs. non.

The game of football is very diverse. There are many ways you can play this game. Over time people changed ways to play this game.

Cleveland has changed the game of football once before. I hope we are seeing something new. Not necessarily seeing Cleveland change for the better but to see the game re-evolve again. Maybe "non-football guys" turn this league into something new and improved.

I don't profess to know the outcome of this experiment. Some are acting like it's doomed to failure because Brown/DePo/Berry didn't play as pros, transition to the management side and work their way up the traditional ladder. They refer to Brown as a lawyer, DePo as a baseball man, and Berry as mathematician, as if the football world is totally foreign to them and they are coming in with no knowledge of how football works in the real world, only their statistical models. Yes, Brown is a lawyer, who has been working in football front offices for over a decade. To think he knows nothing of football is ludicrous. DePo, while academically a statistician, has made translating sports statistics to successful team management his life's work. Sure it's been baseball until now, but now he's taking on a new challenge...football. And Berry, while never a pro football player, has built his career in football front offices as well, so again, arguing he knows nothing of football is ludicrous.

Nothing Haslam has tried to date has worked, so he has embarked on something new. Its bold, and different from the norm. If it works, it may revolutionize the composition of front offices around the league. If it doesn't, it will just be written off as another Haslam failure.

And that's how I think it will work Mac. Jackson isn't going to have little to no say. His voice is going to carry a lot of weight. Especially on players he doesn't like. There may be a case where he likes a player but the system says no to that guy for whatever reason. Even then, I think there would be more discussion on the player v just tossing him off the board.

I think in the end, everybody is going to be comfortable with the players on the board. When it comes to the actual pick, if the room is somewhat divided, I suspect that Brown will cast the deciding vote in favor of who Hue wants more often then not.

I think the process is just a cross check on why or why not we do or don't like a player. When the two don't agree, then a little more time will be spent trying to determine which view if flawed.

JMO

Why didn't you mention that others are saying that it will work because having football people didn't work in the past. There are more posters acting like this is a good idea than a bad one.

And I have to say this. I really don't get all this talk about how "new" this is. Other teams use analytics. Heck, Joe Banner--the guy you all hated--was one of the first guys to embrace analytics. We had him. You ran him out of town.

There are other things that are still the same. There are still too many cooks in the kitchen. This leads to people not being on the same page and it harder to get things done. For example, look at the attempt to trade Joe Thomas. Denver had a deal worked out w/someone from the Browns, but then it changed because other voices became involved. I don't know who was wanting what, but teams were reportedly frustrated in dealing w/the Browns because there were so many people involved in the decision making process.

Another thing that is the same is that Haslam will still have a major influence. I know a lot of people like the crook, but his decision making has been a disaster thus far.

One thing for certain w/the Browns is: The more things change, the more they remain the same.

You are correct the concept is not new. The newness comes committing an entire front office staff around it.

Honestly, I have no idea whether analytics as a concept building a football team will work. In today's world where numbers are crunched for just about everything, I am curious how it works in football. After all, the game of football is full of math. We hear it a lot...timing...angles...precision...statistics.

I think many fans who don't understand question its validity and rightly so. As a seasoned vet who coached under traditional methods I'd be concerned. If this works, football will move in a different direction. With the threat of change, Cleveland will receive a lot mud slinging.

These next couple of years I think will get ugly especially if Browns start seeing success.

Having Hue will make it less difficult. Thank goodness Haslam didn't hire another rookie coaching staff. The outside pressure coming will be tough.

It is a two-way street. Hue must open his mind the numbers don't lie. It won't work having Hue approving the validity of the numbers. It is equally as important the front office understands their numbers are not absolute. Numbers never lie, but sometimes the problem is not well defined for the numbers to give a precise answer.

It is why I think it will take a year or two to create systems and models. Patience from Haslam is key. I foresee big change. It'll get more ugly before it turns in the right direction. My biggest concern for success is Browns are going it alone with no help. I can assure you the media will have a field day bashing Cleveland during it's struggles. Grossi will get a hefty raise to retire on!!!

Again, I do not think this is as "new" as people are making it out to be.

It's not. It is the degree in which we are going to take this is what's new. I think part of scouting/selecting players has a degree of "gut feeling" involved. I am not sure that can be totally eliminated, but going by the facts is going to be the goal.

IT's like anything else, there is a difference between the theory and the application. The theory has proven to work but how we apply it will make the difference.

We got the best in Depo so hey, maybe we'll get it right.

Heck, Joe Banner--the guy you all hated--was one of the first guys to embrace analytics. We had him. You ran him out of town.


Ah, No.. Joe ran himself out of town. Refused to work with others, fighting with the staff and owner. Nobody in the NFL wanted to work with him on trades. No, Just No. Joe put himself above everybody else and paid the price.

Prove that.

Prove otherwise..

And besides.........what does that have to do w/Banner using analytics?

bout as much as you bringing up Banner and how we drove him out of town. Look dude, I just go by what I read, and there was not one good report of him and the FO. I really think Haslam liked Joe, but he kept butting heads with everyone and refused to listen to anything other than what he wanted. You can't work with anyone like that. Now I'll shut up and go back to just reading.

There was one particular article around the time of the combine about how nobody wanted to talk to Banner because nobody liked him. This article came out around the same time as the Whisenhunt interview episode was leaked.

j/c:















https://twitter.com/NateUlrichABJ
https://twitter.com/MaryKayCabot
https://twitter.com/RuiterWrongFAN

Lost of good nuggets in those quotes.

Hey thank you for that post.

Reading the Mack came in to discuss extension pretty much put a huge smile on my face. Joyful to hear/read that!

Good info. Looks like Mack and Schwartz are going to be a priority and rightfully so.

Nice to see him address the Benjamin rumor. He'd be a nice guy to resign. With his speed he makes for a solid #3 WR on the depth chart.

What info in those tweets made you put Schwartz in there while omitting Gipson?

What tweets are you talking about? I thought I was on ignore?

I was a heading out the door to go for a run. Don't look too much into it.

Tag Gipson? Sign me up.

That makes me feel good. Now just get it done.

Nice to hear that Mack was in town to discuss contract.

Looks like Mack, Benji, Gipson are the priorities and it appears that they have room and want Gordon. Let's see if he can get reinstated and stay straight. Let's hope.

I don't know if it's good or bad or neither, but Sashi Brown seems to be pretty straightforward in answering these questions.

I hate the the, "That's team business and we'll let you know if anything happens" type of line.

He's very blunt and pretty transparent. I can respect that big time!

When it comes to info I really want to know about I like blunt and transparent. However, I think there has to be an element and a heavy dose at that of double speak and deception in any quality FO. Go too far into open, blunt and transparent and you don't get to fleece the Colts of a first rounder. I'm happy for smoke screen season to be exactly that. It amazes me some times that these cats are classed as liars and hypocrites when they do a backflip on previous statements. If it gives us an edge I don't care what the hell they say or renege on.

j/c

Sashi Brown 1-on-1, "We Will Not Franchise Tag"

Interview 'posted a half-hour ago':

ClevelandBrowns.com

I don't know if anyone has seen this the other 6 times it was posted, but we won't be using the franchise tag. And since the deadline was an hour ago I am pretty certain that it's accurate.