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No Clem it wasnt easy..I felt like I was failing to do my part to bring the next generation in without the crap I and seeing how we are close in age, you saw and dealt with.

I wont get into te whole story but my oldest said...when he was about 10...he hates n***s...I didnt know what to say...he had gone through some bad stuff...and well thats how he felt.

The only thing I could say to him was..your God parents are what color? He mumbles black...I asked all of your friends back home is what color? He mumbles black. I asked him..would they ever hurt you? No they protected me...and I asked again...What color are they son?

I thought he made the connection...but it was tough. Between them not understanding at 5 what color was....to what he told me at 10...and for the first time he looked at his father with dis=trust and could dad be wrong?? Man I still feel like crap over it.

Good post Clem, It brought back memories and made me think...I wish sh** was different.

Hey Clem, wanted to add one more thing. Its not often I read something that strikes me to the very core...your post did that. Thanks, I needed to read that...and I think I'm going to step away from posting for a bit today.

What a first post/thread to read....hope your day goes well Clem.

Clem, I deeply respect your opinion and you've given me a different viewpoint on a lot of things over the years with similar posts. However, your experience is completely different than what mine has been. Speaking from the viewpoint of a millennial who grew up in a midwest suburb:

I have never personally witnessed a black person be strongly discriminated against. Now look, I'm not saying that all black people have been treated exactly the same as anybody else in every interaction I've ever witnessed. That would be too strong of a statement. But I've never seen overt/hostile/nasty racism directed at a black person.

I've never seen a black person denied any services or products. I've never witnessed any white on black crime. I cannot say the same thing the other way around.

I've heard the N-bomb thrown around a few times but you know what? Usually the large majority of white people are very quick to condemn such usage. And while I do not use any slurs, if a white guy like me were to let that word slip in the wrong neighborhood, I'd be lucky to get out of there in one piece. If it happened to be caught on tape, I'd be lucky to escape with my reputation intact, etc., yet I rarely see similar condemnation from the usage of anti-white slurs.

As far as using the words black/white, I mostly just use them for brevity. They are completely neutral descriptors for me. If the topic involves various areas around the world, I tend to use black as to mean ancestors of Africa and African-American to specifically mean exactly that, but it's kind of a pain to type over and over. I'm not sure if it's because of my experience, or the fact that I'm just a very direct/blunt person but to me using 'black' in this context is just a quick and efficient physical descriptor that's no different than 'white'.

I just assumed he was the real Clem Kadiddlehopper... wow, did I just date myself.

Always love it when you share your personal perspective Clem... and I think that is what the race/bigot discussion needs.. more people being honest and laying it out there.. so I'll go next.

I grew up in a small town that was almost all white (there was a college in the town that had a fair number of black kids, but the college kids and the town kids didn't mingle much).

I thought I was fine.. I had no racist tendencies at all. I got along great with both of the black kids in my high school. (Yea, BOTH).. I went through my senior yearbook and counted, from grades 7-12, there were 5.

It was many years later when I went to the University of Maryland that I realized what the "real world" was like.. I hope this isn't taken the wrong way but the kids in my hometown weren't really black, they were so heavily outnumbered, they couldn't "act black" or do the cultural things that black kids in the city did.. it would have never been tolerated. So I was friends with them, but it wasn't until I was older that I realized, we were friends exclusively on MY terms.

I never considered my father a racist either and I doubt he would have considered himself one.. but when a Browns WR dropped a pass it was not uncommon to hear a mumbled, "You know, you pay a ni**er that much money he should be able to catch the ball." In my young mind, this wasn't racism, this was normal.

My dad was the exalted ruler of the local Elks club, one day when I was about 16 I was standing near the bar with him, a black guy walked in, the whole bar went silent. The guy was a professor at the college, an educated man, looking to join our little social club. He asked for an application, my dad got one for him and handed it to him and said, "I have to give you this, but you will need two members to sponsor you, good luck with that."

I think that was the moment that I realized how subtle and prevalent racism was in our little town.. at that moment all of the offhand comments and suggestions came flooding back from when I was younger.. it was EVERYWHERE. My dad, grandfathers, friends fathers.. before that moment it was just "normal".. the pieces came together like finishing a jigsaw puzzle in 30 seconds.

I have worked very hard to overcome those prejudices that were built into me from birth, I've worked even harder to make sure they don't get passed on to my kids...

Wow.

Congrats to you for putting it all together... and making a conscious effort to be different than your Pops. I think most folk wouldn't go that distance- not because they're bad people, but because they live unexamined lives.

Good stuff.
I enjoyed reading it.

Things are changing in America with immigration. I know more Asian Indians these days who are blacker than my Black friends.

I still remember back in the day where anyone who was not white was colored. Today we are more rainbow like.

I have absolutely no problem with a person celebrating their ancestry. However, what I worry about is when the ancestry becomes more important in many ways than the American part, and especially when it is used to be divisive.

I don't think that accomplishments are in the same category. I think that the problem is when a person's racial background or ancestry is the most important aspect we/they see when we look at them.

If I see a demonstrably poor Black person and a demonstrably poor White person, they are, really, 2 poor people. They face many of the same problems. I understand that there is still some racism in this country, but the differences in income and opportunities is far larger than the difference in skin color.

I think that race is all too often used by certain people in power to keep themselves in power, as opposed to actually trying to help people.

Just my $0.02 on the matter.

agreed.

The policies of the GOP perfectly encapsulate your point, YTown.

The Dems are guilty of trying to keep the power. They arguably do enough to placate the masses in false promises.

and part of me has to remind myself of why that is.

you're statement is correct: people want to use their race to keep power. but why?

part of the answer is because we are still a really young country compared to everybody else. we're still trying to get it right.

i mean 80 other countries have already had a female head of state, yet the country that prides itself on being a melting pot hasn't?

theres about a thousand different factors, but look at the number of millionaires in this country.

how many blacks are millionaires that DIDN'T obtain it through being an athlete or a musician?

now how many whites have become millionaires through the normal job field compared to sports?

how many latino's? and on and on.

there's a host of reasons, but why are there a straight up dominance of white males in the police force? sitting judges? correction officers?

and on the flip side, of course guys like Sharpton want to preach racial discrimination all the time: with out it, they don't have a job. they are still trying to live off of the work of MLK.

and your statement correlates with mine: too many people in each demographic would fight tooth and nail to make sure the labels stay. because the power that the race issue has probably rivals that of religion.

and the more a group makes sure people stay divided, the more power they get to keep.

Damn Swish... I can't like this post enough.

Thank you, hasugopher. I truly, and deeply appreciate that.



...is a great way to frame this. I'll be the last person to insinuate that things aren't as blatantly bad as they were the year I was born... or 10 years later... or even 20.

It's true that steady progress has been made to reduce/eliminate the crushing oppression that was a constant feature for 300+ years on these shores. Considering the persistence of social and political attitudes, combined with the power of inertia, it's actually remarkable that we've seen the strides we have in roughly just 60+ years.

But it's not enough... and I'll get back to that point (and why I say it) in a minute or two (...a minute or two of reading, that is... it will take me a bit longer to bang words out on a keyboard )

The fact that you've never seen such things as you mention in your post means that the trials and tribulations that my elders/forebears underwent (and yes, along with the efforts of good-hearted, well-intentioned White Americans of that same time) have born better fruit for your generation. No doubt about it at all. There truly IS less brutal, blatant, unrestrained hostility visited upon 'my' segment of the population than we saw in 1784, 1884, 1934, and 1964.




You may have not ever personally witnessed it, but you've most certainly read/seen/heard of it in your lifetime, my young friend.
We need only go back one year to see nine people slain in God's House by a deranged person who claimed that his sole motivation was to incite a race war in America.

And what diffused/circumvented the inevitable, supposedly predictable violent backlash of 'outraged Negroes' rioting in the streets?

God-loving, God-fearing victims saying: "I forgive you"... within hours of that brutal, tragic event.
Those fine Human Beings followed M.L.King's non-violent approach to race issues, and the teachings of Jesus Christ in their response to a vile act of pure, calculated Evil...

...and their response is what lingers in the minds of all Americans of good moral character.


What also remains, is the way Gov. Nikki Haley handled the crisis on her watch.

I have madass respect for her management of the incomprehensible circumstances that befell her on her watch. And while the press cameras were still rolling, she actually freakkin' lowered the Confederate battle flag over her state's capitol- once, and for all... in a powerful, overt, and symbolic gesture that was long overdue- in a country that claims 'equality for all'.

That act alone required the kind of stones that 99% of the men who preceded her never carried. And the reigning men of that state followed her- into new territory. That's leadership for a noble cause.

'Girl Power,' indeed.

http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20150718/PC1603/150719396

So, yes... you may have never seen it in your life, but no- that doesn't mean that it wasn't, and isn't still happening. It's happening before your very eyes.

____________


And the levels at which this social phenomenon ("read: 'racial politics') runs much deeper than the surface stories that grab the attention of the local/state/national media will ever report. They run to the very core of everyday life that touches many, if not most Americans.

You only need to read DC's reply to me a few posts above, to see how personally, how deeply... how LOCALLY this vein of oppression runs.

My friend DC had to make a conscious CHOICE to raise his kids in a manner that was different than His Dad raised him... and he only made that choice after he saw His Pops in action. That takes real guts.... the kind that many 'Good Americans' simply do not possess. Black Americans owe a debt of gratitude to citizens like DC, because he put America's core principles above the way he was raised... and he put them to work IN HIS OWN HOME... the place where True Progress makes the biggest difference.

DC is the kind of Dawg America needs. He has no 'skin in my personal game,' and yet, he does his best to make America better, by teaching his kids something that counters what he learned by watching His Father. That is class. That is character on display.


_______________

DC alone can't fight what's in our society. He can raise his kids right, but he can't fight a system that is rigged to make the strong stronger, at the expense of the weak/disfranchised:

It's in our towns (With civic policy).
It's In our states (Nikki Haley finally did something in South Carolina, but only after NINE Black People were brutally slain in one day- by a devout, dedicated White Supremacist).
It's in our National Policy. (It took riots in Chicago, Watts, Philly, Detroit the Deep South, and even small Northern Midwestern towns like my own Lima, Ohio- before any REAL action was taken.

2014/2015/2016: Flint, MI: A predominantly Af/Am community is poisoned for two years with lead BY ITS OWN WATER SUPPLY, because of 'cost-cutting decisions' made by their state's Republican governor, his Republican-appointed 'City Manager,' and a council of White decision-making representatives from Ann Arbor, Grand Rapids, and Lansing? And only after it becomes National News, does anyone in authority make even the first steps to make it right? An entire city's population is poisoned, their next generation's progeny is deprived of their Human Potential... and it's "oh, well... we need to cut costs- lets do it here?"

...And 60% of an entire town is poisoned- by their own government's inaction/complacency- because money is more important than lives?

Apparently, 'Black Lives Matter' only when votes matter... or scenes like Ferguson, MO dominate the daily headlines.

_________________


How many times must chronically oppressed American Citizens shout about their woes before they take to the streets, and burn down their own neighborhoods, in an attempt to bring shame and public light upon those who make policy that directly effect their lives?

Are Black Americans living in The United States of America not doing exactly what British-born (White) convicts, felons, miscreants, and refugees from England's 'debtor's prisons' did... when they concocted the Boston Tea Party and the American Revolution? Are an oppressed minority NOT standing up for their rights as citizens, in exactly the same manner that was enacted by Our Founding Fathers?

hasugopher: you may not see what's happening to my family, forebears and progeny... but that doesn't mean that it's not happening.

It's been happening to us since we came here.... and it's still happening now.

The fact that 'overt racism' has retreated into the background, doesn't mean that racism itself has been eliminated.

What you don't see is still extant in my life... and the lives of My Fellow Americans.

"Hidden' and 'Not-seen" is very different than "non-existent.'

My life (and the lives of those whom I love) is proof.
I see it every day, when I do outreach work at Inner-city schools. I see it every week, when I play my cello in front of kids who don't have books to take home for homework assignments. I see it every year, when City Schools can't put cellos and violins into the hands of our next generation's http://www.sphinxmusic.org/ hopefuls.

I love that you haven't seen what I still see... but with all due respect: you are seeing a different America than I see.

At some point, I hope and pray that we can see The Same America.


just sayin',
Clem.

Clem, I wanted to get your opinion on something that has been rattling around this poor old brain of mine over the past few days.

Racism is at a lower level than it was a generation ago, and that was lower then the generation before it.

However, the Black family, as an institution, has been significantly downgraded during that same time frame.

Out of wedlock births are an epidemic among all people, but it seems to be a much higher percentage among Black mothers than any other racial group. At one point, not that long ago, Black families, husband, wife, and children, were every bit as strong as White families. Today there are very few Black families with the mother and father living together in marriage. The statistics on abortion rates, unmarried rates, and out of wedlock births among Black people is really horrifying. (as they are for all groups, but this seems to have hit Black people harder than other racial groups)

We have improved social welfare safety net programs, and in many ways, we have eliminated a significant amount of (blatant, anyway) racism in our society, but do you think that Black people, especially Black families are better off today than say 50 years ago? Looking in from the "outside", I have to wonder.

What do you think? Am I off my rocker, or do you see similar things?

This happens to people of all races. I see it more as a rich vs poor problem as you don't see much of things like this happen to area's that have more wealth. Here is a small town not far from me.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/1/26/...-water-problems

2010 census

As of the census[3] of 2010, there were 4,420 people, 1,898 households, and 1,098 families residing in the village. The population density was 1,768.0 inhabitants per square mile (682.6/km2). There were 2,291 housing units at an average density of 916.4 per square mile (353.8/km2). The racial makeup of the village was 97.8% White, 0.2% African American, 0.1% Native American, 0.2% Asian, 0.4% from other races, and 1.2% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 0.7% of the population.

They hung a couple of EPA employees out to dry on this. I believe they felt it was an error committed by them that caused the issue in Sebring. Not sure it had a race component.

Thanks for the post Clem. I have actually thought about this a bit in the days since I wrote that. What I wrote was an honest representation of what I thought and (largely) still think. If anything it is a bit overstated and oversimplified. I'll share a couple more experiences that I had forgotten about over the years-- it was around the time Obama was coming up for election.

I had a job in sales for a short time where I did much of the work on the phone and went out into the field. In practice this meant going out to peoples' homes and had experiences with people of all races and backgrounds although I mostly dealt with older people.

One thing that struck me was the incredible kindness and hospitality shown to me by older blacks, over and over again. I mean really went out of their way to make me feel welcome, far moreso than a salesman deserved. I remember one lady offered to make me a meal and would not accept no for an answer (it was really good, kind of like a heavy/creamy chicken and rice sauteed with peppers, celery, garlic?), and it's something that kind of stuck with me. So when you brought up the Charleston Church Shootings and the incredible benevolence required to forgive a monster so quickly, I kind of/sort of know where you are coming from (obviously the latter situation is on a whole different level-- it's hard to truly put oneself in that situation without having gone through it.) [edit: I'm re-reading this post and this is a really clumsy comparison to make. I don't want to change the post around-- I trust you understand what I meant by it.]

One not-so-good experience that stuck with me from that job were hearing some of the comments about Obama. Suffice it to say, there were a lot of pointed/racial/hateful remarks lobbed his way. What struck me about this is that it was always unprompted, I had no interest in discussing race or politics but there were some who just had this dying need to get it out there. Often it was middle aged or older whites who were lower class or had otherwise fallen on tough times. This is in stark contrast to whites in better neighborhoods and better situations, where I never heard such remarks (similar to comments that I wrote in the post you originally responded to). Maybe they were just more subtle about it, or had the good sense to not divulge that kind of info to a stranger. I don't know and don't really remember that well to be quite honest. This was not even close to a universal thing mind you-- I'm just saying when very direct/hostile/nasty things were said, that is where it came from. Now I know a lot of people I know really dislike Obama, don't get me wrong, but they dislike all democrats too. Politics, ya'know?

DC's comments are interesting, and I also respect how he is going out of his way to raise his kids in the way that he is. I never had that experience with my pops, my family, or my friends. That is just not something I was exposed to. Indeed, it is likely that my views are shaped by the fact that I've had a sheltered life in this regard. Had I gone through the experiences you have gone through, or had more that were in-line with what I wrote above, perhaps my views would be much different. All I can say is that I try to keep an open mind about things-- I am not against changing my views to accommodate new information and new experiences.

I'll try to answer this series of questions in as succinct a manner as possible... but it won't be easy. As I said in my original post, there are so many layers that it's next to impossible to do in this format.

I'll use your middle paragraphs as my framework:


It's not an illusion that you've seen. The numbers are pretty striking. Until the late 70's, the traditional family model was pretty much the mainstay of everyday Af/Am life. What could have changed that dynamic in such a shockingly short period of time?

It is my assertion that the AF/Am community suffered a one-two punch in the last half of the 70's decade and the first half of the 80's decade.

First, was the economic downturn of the Carter years. Stagflation, massive loss of jobs in the blue collar sector, and a steady divestiture of resources and tax revenues from urban areas after 3 decades of 'White flight' hit the urban AF/Am community much harder than other sectors of the American public. It was a 'perfect storm' of circumstances that had an immediate and devastating impact. Among our circles, we've all known the old historically accurate cultural axiom: "last hired/first fired." It was especially true for Blacks during this time period.

And the second punch in the gut: the 80's/90's "War on Drugs." At best, it was an impossible mission based on failed ideology, and at it's worst, it became a vehicle to sweep massive numbers of young Black males off the streets and into the corrections system. Unequal penalties for non-violent drug possession charges. Cocaine possession was treated much less harshly than crack possession. I don't believe it's any coincidence that nose candy was the drug of choice on Wall St. and K Street, while low-cost crack was the 'affordable drug of choice' on M L K Blvd. Compare arrest records and sentence lengths at that time, then correlate it to ethnicity... and an appallingly obvious pattern emerges. Justice may be blind, but those with their fingers on her scales had 20/20 vision.

3 strikes rules were devised at that same time, almost ensuring that a significant number of previously incarcerated parolees would return to the system... because where were the jobs for a non-violent felon in a depressed economy? What will he do to provide his cash flow to stay alive? You guessed it- the same thing that got him locked up the first time... because illicit drug sales was the predominant economic commodity and service available in his home environment.

If a bodega owner would even take a chance on him, he'd never be able to earn enough as a stock clerk or 'delivery boy' to eke out even a subsistence-level life for himself... and all the remaining decent-paying jobs up and left while he was in custody.

It's the ultimate "Catch-22 trap."

We've seen the inexorable progression from there through the 90's and into the new millennium. The proliferation of for-profit prisons now have local police providing a steady stream of revenue generators, backed up by power brokers and politicians' policies, fueled by a public that has been ginned up on fear, who voted them into office on the premise that they were 'tough on crime.'

And who becomes that cash cow for The System? Of course- the poorest citizens with the least access to "all the justice that money can buy." And let's face it: outside of rural Southern Whites (who are primarily off the grid), there has historically been no poorer and 'targetable' folks than young Black males.

In our 'war on drugs,' we saw hundreds upon thousands of low-level to low-mid level street busts on every local news channel in the country. It was almost a daily occurrence: every 2 or 3 nights per week, we'd be shown scenes of some young, handcuffed Black male being placed in the back of a squad car. Yet how many times did we hear of guys like Pablo Escobar actually being taken out? How many drug networks were being dismantled at the time? How much did the U S Govt EVER stop or even slow the transportation and sale of illicit drugs?

This alone tells me that they CHOSE where they wanted to focus their efforts... and the results were devastating to urban Af/Am families.

And it hasn't gotten better.

From Wikipedia, quoting statistics from the U.S. Dept. Of Justice: "Approximately 12–13% of the American population is African-American, but they make up 60% of the almost 2.1 million male inmates in jail or prison (U.S. Department of Justice, 2009):

*A black male born in 1991 has a 29% chance of spending time in prison at some point in his life.[7]
*One out of nine African American men will be incarcerated between the ages of 20 and 34.[citation needed]
*Black males ages 30 to 34 have the highest incarceration rate of any race/ethnicity gender and age combination. (According to America Community Survey.)
*"In 2014, 6% of all black males ages 30 to 39 were in prison, compared to 2% of Hispanic and 1% of white males in the same age group."[8]


Just tap this link, and get a quick visual from the graph:
http://www.prisonpolicy.org/articles/notequal.html

And these people are being locked away at the exact time that they'd be starting families and potentially forming life-bonds with their mates.

And you wonder why the Black Family is disintegrating? The dots aren't difficult to see... and if a fool like me can connect them, I'm sure that many others can- if they care enough to actually look.

But that's only part of the story. I don't have the time, energy or resources to fully flesh out my view on America and ethnicity, but this will give you a taste of what I'd explore, if I ever were to write that book I mentioned.


Hope this helps a little, Ytown.

If you want to read someone who has written extensively about these things, someone who sees thing similarly to myself, I suggest you search out the articles and op-eds of Ta-Nahisi Coates- an editor, contributor and correspondent for The Atlantic. His views and expressions are about 10-15% more extreme than mine most days, but our opinions are fueled from a shared view of modern day sociopolitics in America.


p.s. I was spared this life profile for a short list of good reasons. I was raised a family with exceptionally strong moral, spiritual and intellectual character. I grew up in a smallish town, where my abilities were nurtured and allowed to flourish. And... although we lived modest lives, with tight financial resources, My Parents never fell upon hard times. That fact alone is HUGE, because it often illuminates the difference between winners & losers in our country. My Pops never lost his job, we never lost our home, and we were a family unit in that magical time when Socialism wasn't a dirty word- it was just a part of everyday life. I got the same education as the richest kids in town, because we were all enrolled in the same good public schools. I got to play the cello at age nine, because the community provided for it with decent tax revenues. I had clean water, a heated home in winter, and teachers who cared about me because they were paid well enough (and supported by both citizens and public officials) to do their jobs correctly.

Still, with all those 'advantages,' I know in my heart of hearts that it could have all been very for me had even one or two of those conditions been different. On our city's south side, the divide was clear and quite evident. And now, if you look at my home town, it serves as a poster child for the very ills you asked about. Human Nature didn't change from the 1960's/70's to now. Human Nature doesn't change from zip code to zip code. What changes Human Results is the environment in which those Human Beings live.


Whew!
I'm tired now. Because I did it again.
Hope your eyes aren't bleeding.

I thank you for your response. I will have to read through it tomorrow and will comment/ask further questions then.

Bleeding? No.. Weeping? Maybe.

In order to make cogent arguments about complex issues, it takes some typing.. thanks for putting in the work.

Thank you also for capturing many of the issues over a history of multiple decades of the decline in the family structure within the black community.

We need far more of this level of discourse, unfortunately, it's so much easier to say "It's his fault" or "It's their fault"...

OK, I understand hard times. Believe me, I do. My father took off when I was 10 years old, leaving my mom to raise 3 kids on her own. However, we were very lucky in that we had numerous strong male role models. My grandfather was an exceptional example of what a man should be, as well as my uncles, and my great uncle. My Mom did not even go on a date until all of us kids were grown. We did not have strange men in the house. I think that was important for us growing up. She was an amazing role model.

I think that there are a lot of kids of all races who never get that same care from their mother. (and often missing father)

I grew up going to church. While I really needed to come to Christ later in life, the church still gave me role models. I think that this is also missing in today's world. Young mothers are not raised in the church, because their mothers weren't, and their mothers weren't ......

I think that there has been a continuing breakdown of morality in our culture.

I do think that we need to look at our drug laws. I think that we need tough laws for violent crimes, and major drug sales, as well as sales of drugs that are extremely harmful, like cocaine, crack, and meth.

Anyway, I was going to go on and on .... as usual ..... but I am really trying to digest more information on this, and looking at some of my own positions, to see if they are as solid as I once thought.

I read an article that I thought was thought provoking. It knocks the Clintons, so you know that has to be good. Anyway, it brings up some points from a different perspective.

The Clinton Legacy Decimated Black America, so Why Are We Still Voting for Hillary? - The Root
http://www.theroot.com/articles/politics...voting_for.html

So, how do we make life better in Black communities? How do we improve life for poor people in this country? I truly do not think that just handing out a welfare check is the answer. I have long advocated for community service in exchange for a welfare check, teaching people who might never have held a job how to work. I also think that we can use job and skills training as "hours worked" in conjunction with real community work, in exchange for a welfare check. In addition to helping people learn real skills. I think that it would also kelp remove the stigma from welfare.

Man, I am thinking about the war on drugs, and how it has disproportionately impacted Black males ..... along with abortion, and how it has also disproportionately impacted Black children, and I really do see a somewhat different side than I have in the past. I still think that we need to help people work their way out of a bad situation, as opposed to just giving them stuff. I understand that people need help, but we really denigrate people when we just throw money at them to keep them quiet.

Anyway, I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on this issue. You have given me some things to think about.

Clem,

I love your take on things because there's always a historical component that you include. Being able to provide the historical context goes a long way in mitigating often too emotional responses that make these kinds of discussions difficult.

But speaking in the historical context, wasn't it the black community that asked for harsher sentencing in regards to crack cocaine because of the devastating impact it was having? If that's true, then it becomes a bit more difficult to blame a white power structure for the disparities.

To your point about wall street and their powder vs. crack cocaine on the streets: here too I think it's too simplistic to attribute it to selective enforcement based on skin color. Periodically someone brings up stats on black on black crime, and often we see rebuttals of "it doesn't happen any more often than it does in other racial groups". That may be true, but it misses the key aspect in that simply geographically speaking, violent crime impacts poor, inner city communities much greater than other areas of the U.S. Take a city like Chicago last year where they had around 500 people murdered, and around 2,000 other people who were shot and lived, the vast majority poor and black. That's a pretty condensed area. Now think geographically how big of an area you'd need to cover in order to reach that equivalence of 500 white people killed by other white people. So while the "rates" may be the same, inner city folk are going to witness and be subjected to this kind of thing much more often simply due to proximity. How this relates to powdered coke vs. crack? Well, when the white wall street yuppie snorts a line, how does that negatively impact his community? It probably doesn't all that much. He's not dealing on the street, he's not committing any crimes to support his habit (ok, maybe securities fraud, but don't ALL wall street types? ) Hi or not, he goes back to wall street and continues to make bank. In a sense he's still productive. Now take your typical crack user... they don't hold jobs. They do very little that is productive. In fact, they end up being very damaging to their community because they are now committing a wide variety of crimes to support their habit: break ins, assaults, crack dealing (which keeps the cycle going), prostitution, etc... all things that bring down a neighborhood.

My points aren't an attempt to disprove racial disparity in enforcement, but rather to bring a little context because it's not as simple as saying "he does it too, but no one's going after him because he's white".

I do not favor 3 strikes laws. I don't think someone should be locked up for stealing a car, even if it is their 3rd time. I also believe that state statutes and penal codes need to be combed through. It's way too easy to be charged with a felony.

It's also over simplistic to make the claim that the prisons are full of "low level" non-violent offenders, especially federal. Let me caveat this by saying I don't work in a 3 Strikes state.. so they will be different... but a lot of those guys DO have a violent criminal history. This history is also a factor when it comes to sentencing. So when you have a guy with multiple robbery convictions who gets caught with a couple ounces of weed packaged for sale and a gun (which he can't have as a convicted felon), yeah, his sentence IS going to be harsher.

I've tried lately to bow out of the racial discussions because I found the butting heads kept me and some others from realizing the common ground we have on other topics. Plus, I simply haven't had anyone address my concerns and show me where I'm wrong on some issues, particularly crime. When we talk about crime in the poor communities, immediately factors such as being poor, lack of education, lack of jobs, etc are put forth. And while I don't disagree with those as being contributors, there's very little substantive discussion as to WHY education is substandard, why there is little employment opportunity in those places. I've tried to bring up the fact that gangs play a massive part in all that, but I just get told "we've talked about that on another thread", or that they have little to do with the topic at hand. In return we get that "white people don't care enough" or we have to express some sort of guilt before we are allowed to have any credibility (and even then a very fine, thinly defined credibility).

When it comes down to it, no matter what you guys attribute to it or how you guys excuse it, crime is a choice. I can tell you in 6 years of police work I've met literally maybe 1 or 2 suspects who committed a crime because they had to feed their family. I can tell you though, that the vast majority of suspects commit a crime because they have a sense of entitlement. This belief that because Walmart has a bunch of something, they can afford to let me take it for free. Its that same sense of entitlement that motivates someone to break in to another persons house. Even after all these years, the audacity it takes to do something like that is something I can't wrap my head around. I still knock on my parent's door, and while my girlfriend gave me a key, it still feels weird just to walk right in even when she knows I'm on my way over. It's a sense of entitlement that justifies robbing the people in their own neighborhood. Personally, the being poor excuse is a hard sell for me because the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of poor people who face the same issues as offenders, AREN'T committing crimes.

Why is it black offenders don't get charged with hate crimes? We just had a Hispanic cab driver killed by a black offender. He's been arrested and charged for it, but he won't also be charged with a hate crime... yet if a white offender killed a black cabbie he'd be charged with a hate crime even if he never uttered a racial slur in his life. I mean, is that the solution to disparities in the justice system?


But honestly Clem, a lot of it has to do with the fact that I'm just tired and worn out about talking about race. The message has gotten so convoluted and so few people on any side are capable of actually having a dialogue, I have no clue just what the hell anyone actually wants! When I grew up the goal used to be for everyone to be color blind, you know the whole "content of their character, not the color of their skin" thing.... but it's gone way beyond that. As a white guy, the expectation of me when crossing paths with a person of color was that beyond a physical characteristic, skin color wasn't supposed to mean anything, and I was to carry on treating them like anyone else. But that's not the expectation anymore. Now when I cross paths with someone the expectations are

a) be careful of what I say so as not to offend,
b) be careful of how I say so as not to offend,
c) ensure I'm not committing any kind of micro-aggression
d) recognize that this person has been victimized by hundreds of years of oppression
e) recognize that even though I recognize that, I'll never be able to understand what that means
f) recognize that I've had a direct hand in perpetuating hundreds of years of oppression,
g) recognize that my current status and any successes I have in my life have come in large part at their expense
h) recognize that because of that, I also have to relay an expression of guilt, even if I don't know how my success has come at their expense
i) recognize that if I don't believe any of those points, or try to deny any of them, I'm a racist.

... all that when all I want to do is pay for my coffee and say "Thank you".

What really bothers me about all this I guess, is that I was raised not to think in terms of race, but now I'm being told that I have to think in terms of race. My grandfather on my mom's side was racist. Every time he would drop the "n" word, my mom would tell us that wasn't appropriate and that we should never talk like that because that's not how we should treat people. Not "that's not how we should treat black people"... she and my dad instilled in us the concept that NO ONE should be treated poorly.

I just thought that's what the whole goal was supposed to be.

You know, this time of year and through early Spring, I enjoy watching the Geese over on the lake. They come flying in from distant lands in their "V" shapes as they glide into the area from great heights, landing on the lake and happily resting their tired bodies. They eat what they can find and huddle together. They settle in for a long nights sleep as they rest up for tomorrows flight. Often times there are flocks of Ducks that fly in to join them.

There is also another flock of Geese that don't ever migrate. They are on the lake year round. I notice the migrating Geese keep their distance from this flock, they keep to themselves and drive off the non-migrating Geese to their own part of the lake. I notice the migrating Geese appear healthier and I have wondered if the other Geese have picked up parasites and such from staying in the same lake year after year.

The next morning there arises a clatter as the migrating Geese prepare to take flight and form up. They take off in groups and gain altitude as they line up behind other Geese, forming "V's" that soon merge into one large "V" as they begin their trek North. The wind is howling and the rains are stinging their eyes but off they go, through it all, in hopes of a better life for themselves and future generations.

The non-migrating Geese make a racket as all this is happening but soon settle back in to their meager existence. Every once in a great while, those Geese will start making noises and taking flight, circling the lake. Suddenly they start to form up in a couple of different "V" formations as they gain altitude. They never quite get it together enough to form one "V". They finally settle back down on the lake and the noise dies out.

It was too hard for them I guess, that wind was howling and the rain, the rain stung their eyes.

Would they be considered illegal immigrants?

Right D.C. ,and when the hypocritical liberals stop doing it we may be able to get along ie, Bernie Sanders wants to jail tax evaders on Wallstreet but not Al Sharpton

I have typed many posts to respond to some of your questions but after I proof read it and checked my sources, I delete them? Why? I get tired of exposing myself to my reality just for it to get dismissed by others. I pride myself to find credible strong sources but people just dismiss or and just refuse to acknowledge them. Some time it just isn’t worth the effort. (I am not saying you but just in general)

People in poverty cannot learn the same way a child in the suburbs will learn.

Poverty child

Both parents work 2 jobs or 1 parent work 2 jobs to survive
Not eating healthy food, ramen noodles, fast food, overly processed foods.
Kids set their own bedtime because parents aren’t around or too tired to enforce
Babysitting and taking care of siblings can’t do homework (because parents are at work or too tired to help)

Burb child

Parents work 1 job
No fast food, all the time, you will see healthy items on their dinner plate
Parents enforce bed schedule
Parents help with homework or pay for tutor
Provide extracurricular activities (baseball, martial arts etc.)


Who do you think will have a hard time the next day staying focused in school? Can you see how the child in poverty is going to struggle?

Now fast forward 15 years suburban kid is in college thriving (or having fun) while the poverty child is dropped out of school years ago or is so behind that they will not be able to get a high earning job and stuck with low paying jobs for the rest of their life.


I agree a crime is a crime and if you do the crime you can do the time, but you have to understand that the system is not fair for minorities and is rigged. Profiling is real, harsher sentences for minorities is real, expelling minorities at school for petty things is real.


I think when people are young, innocent and impressionable things are simple they don’t really understand what is “morally right” and “morally wrong”. When we get older we are more aware and can understand and see the differences on what is “morally right” and “morally wrong”.

I am thinking about DCs experience and trying to understand how he must feel. People that you love have completely different views then you do but you can't break that bond.

Fyi I almost deleted this twice lol.

You bite your tongue a lot. Unfortunately for me, my mother and father both passed away before any of their grandkids were born.. that was the one thing that worried me when I was in my early 20s... my parents, in 99% of the things they do, were awesome people... but how do I take my kids to visit them if the N-word could come flying out during a football game? I assume it would have taken some communication and reaching of common ground.

And I will say this about my father, since I have a feeling some people might have gotten the wrong impression... my father was somewhat uncomfortable telling the black man at our social club that he would never be able to find 2 sponsors (but when you have lived your entire life in a small town, you don't break ranks.. and nobody at that moment was willing to break ranks even though the growing sentiment was that it was wrong)... my father would have had no problem allowing him to join. My father worked with black people, we had a black kid or two on our youth sports teams that my dad coached, he owned a college bar and black kids from the college came there all the time.. and he was fine with all of that.

Which is why I said in my original post, I seriously doubt my father would have considered himself a racist. Racists went to rallys, racists HATED black people, racists couldn't be around black people, racists couldn't work with black people... The racism we get mad about today, that people get fired for, would have seemed like nothing in 1974...

See, my father probably came as far from his father as I did from him.. each generation growing, learning, improving... So if I gave anybody the impression that my father was a bad person, I apologize.. he was raised the way he was raised and he was growing too.. and if he was alive today, some 25 years later, I'm sure he would have continued to grow.

I don't know the expression, "bite your tongue" is that "like put my foot in my mouth"?

Biting your tongue is holding back on what you're saying. Bite your tongue so you can't form the words.

I thought everyone knew what "bite your tongue" means.

It means to stop yourself from saying something ..... like "I was going to ask her if she had gained a few pounds,but decided that it would be better to bite my tongue instead."

No, bite your tongue means you have something to say that may not be well received so you bite your tongue instead of saying it.. it's kind of the opposite of putting your foot in your mouth.

Thank you, I may have heard that before but I guess people around me don't bite their tongue around me. Not sure if that is good or bad. lol

What about biting someone else's tongue?

You can try and let us know how it works out. Be sure and go for the whole experience and find someone with a beard and mustache.

accidents of french kissing.

I accidentally did it to the 1st girl I ever kissed. (not hard, though)



She liked it.

But did it shut her up?

Biting someone else's tongue ain't so bad, especially with some fava beans and a nice Chianti.

She told me to do it again.

I'm glad that it was my post that made you want to talk about this subject again. (If you haven't noticed, check out my posting history. You'll find that I 'check out' of such convos for similar long stretches of time, too.) It can be exhausting. And endless.

In threads like these, I drop my .02 only when I feel it's appropros... and stay the hell out- when it looks like I can't make a difference.

But your post took time & thought to make. It deserves the same level of considered response from me.

I need to read you again, because you think before you type.
That gets mad respect from me every time.


________________


Just wanted you to know that I didn't forget ya... and I wan't ignoring you, either.

We'll talk soon.