DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2016 NFL Season 2016 NFL Draft Quarterback Shopping

Thanks, Vers. It's my dream to grow up to be you. From the sound of it, I'm well on my way.

Or you could present me something to make me change my mind. Someone gives me something, I'm looking and responding. If you don't like my takes, ignore them.

What makes you think that was a criticism? Your mind is made up. Many options have been presented to you and you shoot them all down. Every single one of them.

So, what was so offensive about my comment? You really don't wish to "get" anything from anyone else. Your mind is made-up.

So I didn't just post about drafting Bosa and playing more 4-3 after you brought him up? No, I'm still somehow pimping Wentz.

How is my mind made up? I've said I'd trade down, and take Robinson or Myles Jack, but nope, I'm still dead set on Wentz.

I'm supposed to take being called close-minded as a compliment? When I'm actually reading everything and taking the time to look at what people are saying instead of posting the same tired argument-non-arguments, I'm supposed to feel good about that?

Sure. That means you really believe your right. I felt that way when I wanted the Browns to draft Teddy.

I think Dak and Lynch are really looking the part. Wentz impressed me with the lack of wasted movement with his feet. I love the turf when u can see the beads pop from his feel being so low. No high stepping footwork.


Wentz great feet. Lynch choppy drop. Prescott a tad high but improving quickly.

All 3 have NFL arms but Lynch has a tremendous deep ball. Again Dak was right there with him. I thought the short to mid range wentz really was comfortable and looked the part.

None of these guys hurt themselves. Its not a special QB class but its full of late mid to late first through low 2nd round talents. bottom Line, I believe either lynch or Dak will be there at 32 and I can live with that and be happy with it.

Disagree with dropping back...JMHO, Wertz looked very solid, he was way better than Lynch, only competition is Goff....has better arm and upside....we've "settled" on Qbs to many times...IF our HC wants him, I'd for sure put his card in at 2.....Go Browns!!!

Hitt, can you clarify what you disagree with about dropping back. It's not clear (at least to me) what you are referring to.

Mine would be a similar list .......

Wentz (who is the best by far imo, but the competition level is concerning)
Goff (doubt his arm the more of him I see)
Lynch ( all the physical tools for sure)
Prescott very similar to Lynch imo....both 2nd round guys)
Driskel ( 3rd/4th round guy)


I wouldn't touch any of the rest of them including Cook.

I would be okay w/drafting Lynch, Wentz, Goff, or even Cook at 32. There is risk involved, but there could be a reward.

I have little doubt that the Browns will pick a Qb at #2.

I will be okay with any of the 4 you listed (Cook, Goff, Lynch, Wentz - in alphabetical order)

I think all of them can do the job physically. I want us to take the guy that has the best head and heart out of that group.

Link?

I'm not sure who all threw in the first throwing session, so Goff looking the best of that group should not come as a surprise. Wentz was in the 2nd, and I think Lynch was as well. By the time they got to the throwing, I was pretty sick of watching the combine.

He does look pretty smooth throwing on air, I'll give Goff that.

Yes, would love to see that link.

Wentz and Mooch


Goff and Mooch

Wentz's workout:

http://www.houstontexans.com/tv-media/vi...6d-160d15329fd0

Goff's workout:

http://www.houstontexans.com/tv-media/vi...28-ca46b4682067

cfrs and ddubia - thanks for the links.

From just the throwing drills at the combine, excluding game film, interviews, measurement etc , I would rank the top 4 Qb's

Goff
Wentz
Cook
Lynch

Yes, Wentz looked good in his drops as several have pointed out but I actually thought Goff looked smoother. Goff has a lightning quick release. Again no knock on Wentz but Goff was smooth. Also looked like Goff looked off the safety on some throws during the drills.

Lynch is listed at #4 but it is a distant 4. We now have a a baseline on him. We'll see how much he improves by his pro day.

Cook was solid. Nothing too impressive but nothing detrimental, though there is significantly less footage available on him.

Damn guys, Wentz looks like a Natural. Reeks confidence.

2 horse race here. Now we need Huey, Hamilton and Saunders to put these guys through the ringer in Berea based on what we're going to run offensively.

Both these guys are silky smooth. I'm still giving the nod to Wentz. Tie breakers? His size versus Goff's slinky frame and his hands. If Goff was 9 1/2 I wouldn't care if Wentz had 15's. But 9 is cutting it dangerously short.

JMHO but I believe Wentz will be our Rothlisberger in 2 years. And in 3 years the AFC North is gonna be a 2 horse race Wentz VS Dalton.

Agreed that this where things are. I hope we make the right the decision.

Kyle Boller was throwing footballs from his knees before Jamarcus Russell was getting paid to play football...

Beat me to it

Quote:
But for a quarterback who rarely was asked to drop back from center in college, Goff was remarkably smooth whether asked to take three-, five- or seven-step drops Saturday.

i think it would be a lot easier to look smooth in a workout than it would facing the heat of an nfl defense every week. that's when you revert back to habit.

Kyle Boller was throwing footballs from his knees before Jamarcus Russell was getting paid to play football...


IIRC gary beban was doing that for ucla back in the depression and without a doubt guys were doing that long before.
also wasn't brees doing that?

watched the combine for a while yesterday. The QB's were up.

If I was asked to rank them:

Goff
Wentz

Still not sure if either are high first rounders but given the market, I bet they both go in the top ten.

j/c:

I am always amazed by the analysis of QBs at The Combine? People see what they want to see when those guys are throwing. It's way overrated.

j/c

I think both Goff and Wentz are going to be pretty good NFL QBs it's just a matter of choosing which you prefer. Goff is the more ready of the two and the only issue I see with him is his slight build and smaller hands. Can he take an NFL hit and can he grip the ball well enough in Northern Ohio winters. With Wentz I think he has a slightly higher ceiling and the only issue I see with him is can he read coverages fast enough at the NFL level since he only started for a year and half at a lower college level.

Why? Because the guys on this message board are in love w/them or did you hear something from the Browns?

Again, I think that getting one of these guys at 32 would be worth the risk, and yes, there still would be a risk involved. I just think they are too risky to draft w/the second overall pick.

Like you, I don't see a guy good enough for the second pick. but the pressure is on in Cleveland (as with a lot of teams) and I think it's very possible that both Goff and Wentz are gone in the top ten.

I know we need a QB badly. We don't have a ton of options as has been reported by every news outlet, Johnny is as good as gone (and I believe that).

We have the 2nd and 32nd pick. I'd like to see Goff or Wentz with 32 but realistically, neither will be there.

I also like that kid out of Penn State, he'll be there until the Texans pick and not beyond. My guess (and it's just that) O'brian won't let him get away.

Connor Cook will be there when we pick at 32 I think. But he's got question marks.

Hell, every QB in this draft has question marks. There is no Andrew Luck or Payton Manning. There may be a lot of Ryan Leafs and Johnny Manziels however.

LOL funny you should say that, for whatever reason yesterday, I had nothing planned until late in the day so yeah, I was bored out of my skull LOL

Today, not so much, it will be in the 60's today so I'm getting the sports car out to start spring maintenance.

Aching to drive that thing... So, no combine today for me..

I have no Browns insider information. Just putting the pieces together.

1, We need a Qb. McCown can get us through part of this season. Given his age and style of play, I have serious doubts that he can stat 16 games.

2, Until Qb is settled, there is always going to be a cloud hanging over this franchise. I just don't believe a team can progress without a stable Qb situation. No extrapolating this statement. I don't think a tram needs a HOF Qb at the helm. But I firmly believe that the QB needs to be a solid player and a good leader for the offense.

3, Wentz and Goff have shown enough in season to be "deemed worthy" of going in the top half of the 1st round and post season have done nothing to change that.

4, The Qb position has the greatest impact on a team. Drafting a QB that is perennially in the top 3rd of NFL Qb's has greater impact than drafting a player at another position that in top 3 in the league at his position. If you have a greatest of all-time type talent that could be different.

5- I see no players in this draft that give me confidence that they will end up a top 3 player at their position. None make me think they have GOAT potential.

6, I would love to be able to pick a top 3 in the NFL at his position type player at #2 then one of the top 4 QB at #32. No guarantees one will make it there. Just too risky. To many teams need Qb help. If we pass on QB I can see Dallas taking Wentz, SF Goff, Philly Lynch and Houston Cook.


I had more but was trying to type this while watching a movie and lost my train of thought. But this is a good start to my reasoning.

There's good reason to believe that 4 QBs will be gone after Houston picks at the dreaded #22 slot in the first. More than one mock I've seen has the Texans taking Connor Cook there. Cleveland, LA, SF, and Philly are believed to be looking QB in the 1st round, so Cook might possibly not even make it to 22. That would force O'Brien and the Texans to make an epic reach at 22, or wait til the 2nd and take either Hackenburg, Prescott, or Cardale. Even in the 2nd round, those guys would be reaches. On CBS's big board, they are ranked 71, 115, and 140, respectively.

The point is, if teams need a QB, they need to get him early. Happily for the Browns, that will not require a big reach, since Goff and Wentz are both top ten (on the big board I'm referring to - CBS Sports). Goff is at #4 and Wentz is at #10.

That's very logical and thanks for taking the time to write it out.

I just hope the "new analytics" approach the Browns are using has them not overemphasize need over ability and productivity.

I think the opposite will come from the analytics approach.

I see the goal of analytics as

1, giving value to stratify each position and determine need at those positions

2, giving a method to eval players that more accurately values their ability -not just draft eval but also for evaluating current players and determining exissting team needs

3, provides a reproducible method of doing such evaluations making trading up/down on draft day less hit/miss.

4, provide a methodology for melding need/talent to rank players

Of course this all sounds great in theory. What it comes down to in the long wrong run is the execution of the analytics. Analytics won't work if the equations you use are flawed or the subjective components used are off. How do you analyze a players heart? Or their feel for backside pressure?

Sorry for the side track. This is a post for the analytics thread but a direct response to your post. I don't want to change the topic to make this an analytics thread so no more anaylytic talk from me hear.

I think what really separates Wentz from Goff for me are the things that are hardest to quantify.

To me Wentz just has the Favre-like joy in playing football. You can tell he loves it. He's always smiling. Mooch was trying to "grill" him, but he was still enjoying talking football. I like that when his career is over he wants to coach. I like that he's a physical education/health education major with a minor in psychology (with a cumulative 4.0). You can see how that translates to football/coaching. I've scanned his twitter feed and its all about faith and football. I think our football team needs all the positivity it an get. I think he does a good job of dealing with adversity. He broke his wrist, but he still made an adjusted plan to keep working out, and he increased his film work with his backup.

Goff just seems flat at times. Goff is a football player, but I'm not sure he loves it. I don't like how he said he knew midseason it was time to go to the NFL, or how he felt he proved everything he could at the college level. Link It kind of made me feel like he's okay with mediocrity as a team, and we have enough of that already. He's a sociology major, and that doesn't scream football to me. His twitter feed is talking about music and soccer. It may seem over-analyzing, but I think that stuff matters.

'Carson Wentz over Jared Goff for Browns at No. 2, experts at NFL Combine say'

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss...art_river_index

By Mary Kay Cabot, Cleveland.com on February 27, 2016 at 7:29 PM, updated February 27, 2016 at 8:06 PM

INDIANAPOLIS -- The Browns should draft Carson Wentz over Jared Goff at No. 2, a handful of NFL draft experts at the NFL Combine told cleveland.com Saturday.

"I would take Carson Wentz, especially since I know the coaching staff," said noted draft expert Greg Cosell of NFL Films.

Cosell said the veteran, quarterback-savvy Browns staff would know how to develop a small-school prospect like Wentz, who played at FCS school North Dakota State. What's more, he's started only 23 games, going 20-3. The Browns offensive coaches have tutored the likes of Kurt Warner, Carson Palmer, Joe Flacco, Andrew Luck and Andy Dalton.

"They have Hue Jackson, Pep Hamilton, Al Saunders and Kirby Wilson,'' said Cosell. "They have coaches who have been in the NFL for a long time and I think that's absolutely critical.''

Like Warner, an NFL Network analyst, Cosell believes that Wentz won the quarterback workouts Saturday, beating out Cal's Goff, Memphis' Paxton Lynch and Michigan State's Connor Cook, a native of Hinckley, Ohio.

Wentz finished tied for second in the 40 with a 4.77, tied for second in the broad jump and finished third in the three-cone drill. He also displayed a strong arm, good footwork, nice touch on the shorter routes and a quick release.

"Hands down, Wentz (6-5 1/4 237) was the best quarterback in these workouts,'' Cosell said. "Hands down he shone above everyone else.''

But Cosell relies on his extensive film study in grading the passers.

"Since I've watched both on tape, I'd say Wentz has high level traits, the kind of traits that make you think if he were to become what he could be that he'd be a top five kind of quarterback in the league,'' Cosell said.

Like NFL Network's Mike Mayock, Cosell believes that Goff (6-4, 215) might be more ready now, but that Wentz has more upside potential.

"Goff is a really refined player for a 21-year-old quarterback, really good pocket mechanics, really good feel for the pocket, does something that not even some pro quarterbacks do, which is he moves his feet with his eyes, which is a really refined trait for a young quarterback,'' he said. "So Goff to me is more refined, but Wentz has the higher-level traits.

He said the fact Wentz played in a pro-style offense in college while the other played in a spread doesn't push him over the top.

"I'm not a huge believer in that because I think you can teach guys,'' he said. "It's like receivers when you say they only ran three routes. I think if you coach guys well, if they have change of direction and good movement skills you can teach guys how to run the route tree. I think with a quarterback you can teach your offense.''

He added, "both guys from what I can gather have come across very well and are generally smart kids.''

One high level NFL talent evaluator who doesn't need a quarterback but studied the current class said he'd go with Wentz because "he's stronger, a good athlete, a good thrower, played in a pro offense and won national championships.''

One NFL offensive coach said, "all things being equal, go with the size.''

Still, another NFL offensive assistant said Goff has done it for longer and Wentz is coming out of nowhere. He's leery. "No one heard of him until the Senior Bowl,'' he said.

Before the workouts, NFL Network draft analyst Daniel Jeremiah said Wentz was his top QB. The session confirmed it.

"Everybody focuses on the level of competition, but to me I believe he's the top quarterback in this draft class,'' he said. "A lot of it is because of what he's asked to do. He's under center, he has a lot of control in that offense.''

Although Warner crowned Wentz winner of the day, he also likes Goff.

"Jared Goff, I don't know if you see as much of what makes him a pro ready quarterback out here in combine drills,'' he said. "It's his speed inside the pocket, it's movement, quick release, those two guys I thought looked very solid.

"That's one thing that really impressed me with Jared Goff when I watched him on film -- tremendous pocket awareness but the ability to move his hips and get the ball out quickly in that small, little box is impressive."

As for Mayock, he seems to be favoring Goff for the Browns because he's ready to step in now, and Wentz for the Cowboys at No. 4 where he can sit awhile behind Tony Romo.

"Now if (Wentz) had to go in and play this year, do I think he could take his lumps and do that? Yeah,'' he said. "But I think the healthiest situation for that kid in a franchise is to give him a year behind an established starter, even in Cleveland.

"If Cleveland took him. Go to Cleveland, spend a year learning the system and learning what you're doing and a year from now you're the guy. I think that's healthy.''

Why is Goff more ready now?

"The advantage Wentz has is he's been under center,'' he said. "He's done a lot in the protections. You could see his footwork, it was good. The difference is he's played 23 games and he's done it at a lower level. I didn't see the same pocket awareness.

"When I watch Goff I see a guy sliding, moving around in the pocket, going from one side of the field to the other making every throw. I don't think Wentz is at that point yet as far as being quickly able to do that and I think he needs a lot more reps.''

Question is, where will he get them?

We don't agree about taking a qb at number 2, but I enjoy how you explain things.