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Wentz was on my radar as a top QB prospect before the CFB season started (or just after) and I'm just some schmuck sitting at a computer. This guy is a member of an NFL offensive coaching staff and had never heard of him until the Senior Bowl? I think that is more a knock on him then on Wentz.

J/c...

Anybody catch the combine yesterday when Stave and Wentz were running their first 40s? They accidentally switched to the wrong audio when Stave finished and Charles Davis said "is it as bad as he throws it? Awful." Then someone else said "and as I texted this morning... The next former starting quarterback of the Browns" and they showed Wentz lining up to run. Then they abruptly went to commercial.

J/c...

To illustrate my point about how difficult it is to project anything Wentz did in FCS to the NFL, for as fast and athletic as he looked against FCS defenders, he's got the 40 time of Joe Flacco.

I heard that live and laughed

Yeah I'm just watching the DVR of it right now. Ouch.

The problem is that those FCS defenders are sooo slooow. Zero recovery speed. So a receiver gets open Wentz can be late with the throw and still complete it whereas against an SEC it would get knocked down or picked..

Unfortunately it is really hard to make that determination watching those throws. Grabbing any of these Qb's will make me both excited and nervous at the same time. But I have to trust in Hue and hope for the best.

You missed the point.

The comment wasn't intended to disparage Wentz. It was intended to point out how difficult he is to "scout the player" because of the competition he played against.

Wentz looks fast in his games but Ben and Flacco are slow Qb's. Yet their 40 times are similar

You are over analyzing.

Goff has been groomed to be a QB since he was a little kid.

Like Todd Marinovich?

Just having a little fun with it

Or like Peyton and Eli.

I think people are confusing quick and fast a little bit. Wentz is very mobile for a big guy. He uses jump cuts. He's a fluid athlete.

I don't want his running to be a big part of his play as a Pro. I want him to use his athleticism more like Aaron Rodgers than Kaepernick.

From everything I am reading it seems like Wentz is as good as any qb in this draft with more upside. If our FO likes him and drafts him we should give him the time he needs to learn whatever that may be. We have Josh who is capable of giving us decent play until Wentz is ready and is willing to mentor. We can't make the same mistake we always have and rush these guys. JMO

If we select a QB at pick #2 and that QB is not better than Josh McCown right now, then we should just fire everyone immediately and start over again.

I understand what you are saying but it will take some time for the game to slow down for CW especially coming from the conference he played in. Not to mention he has to learn a new playbook. Josh's experience puts him ahead right now.

Like I said, just having a little fun with it

Goff is quicker in the pocket than Wentz - IMO




Agreed

j/c:

Wentz has red hair.

And Goff looks like a SoCal surfer dude.

Spiritbro posted this in another thread and it raises an issue that I have been wanting to talk about. I am moving it here to try to keep thread integrity.

A lot of people use the term Franchise QB. My issue is that I don't think we are all in agreement about what a franchise Qb is. We just all know that we want one.

I think a lot of us feel that Franchise Qb = Elite Qb.

My feeling is that is not an accurate statement. I don't think a Qb needs to be elite to be a franchise Qb. I think a franchise Qb is a guy who is the face of the franchise. When you think of a team you think of him. A guy who comes into training camp as the undisputed starter this year who you expect to be the guy who walks into camp as the undisputed starter 5 years from now unless he is injured or he decides to retire after having had a career with your team. When you have one of these guys your franchise feels set at the Qb position


A couple examples to illustrate:

Tom Brady - clearly elite, clearly franchise Qb
Matt Ryan - not elite but he is a franchise Qb
Andy Dalton - not elite but he is a franchise Qb

David Carr - not elite but he is probably a franchise Qb
might be too early to tell

Josh McCown - not elite, not a franchise Qb

Where this definition gets sketchy is when we need to be subjective about it. Sam Bradford. Currently no chance of being a franchise Qb but I would argue that he was a franchise Qb when he was with the Rams. Not a very good one but one nevertheless.

An interesting discussion might be Peyton Manning:

Peyton Manning Colts - Elite and franchise
Peyton Manning 1st year with the Broncos - elite but not franchise
Peyton 2015 - not elite, not franchise

That would be my assessment but I could see some having a valid argument for Peyton being a franchise Qb his 1st year with the Broncos

I think we get into difficult discussions about Qb because different people define franchise Qb differently. I think some of us equate being a franchise Qb with being an elite Qb whereas others do not. Or is that just me? Am I just an outlier? Do I need to change my definition of franchise Qb? I am cool with that. I would just like for us to come to some consensus about how we define the term franchise Qb because it gets used far to often to be left as ambiguous as it is now.

I think the term "franchise qb" is a subjective thing and you don't need to change a thing. I think it is simply a short phrase that helps sum things up while debating, but has very little significance.

I think this term gets thrown around enough that it should be defined.

Think about how many posts you have read the state something similar to: if you think one of these guys can be a franchise Qb then you need to take him.

If we are going to use this term as much as we do, I just think we should have a clear idea about what people mean. Many times I read something and if franchise Qb means Tom Brady/Big Ben Franchise Qb then I absolutely agree. But if they mean Matt Ryan franchise Qb then I am a little hesitant to agree.

Good luck w/that one, bro.

Thanks Vers.

I am not opposed to the idea of taking a non Qb at #2 under the following conditions:

1, there is a guy at #2 that we feel pretty confident about becoming a perennial all-pro - do you have this player identified?

2, we are pretty confident that we can get Cook or Lynch using the #32 pick - whether that's at #32 or as part of a trade back into the 1st round, though I am pretty sure analytics won't let us trade to #22 to do that.

I don't see a big drop off between the 4 but I worry about availability at #32. I combine that with not seeing a lot of drop-off between whatever non-Qb guy we would take at #2 and the alternative we would get at #32 either but we get more options because of position flexibility. We don't have to take a LB we could take a Cb or DE or Wr.

I see no way that we use our 1st 2 draft picks and not use one of them to draft a Qb unless we sign a free agent or trade for somebody before draft day.

No kidding. I think we would have trouble coming up with a consensus definition of a 10 yard out.

Well, it depends. If it's 3rd and ten, a 10 yard out should be broken off at 6 yards.

Another piece of data today. People point to Wentz playing Deiondre Hall as an example of a "good corner" Wentz faced in college because some online numbnutz convinced people he's a good corner. He isn't, but that's not the point of this. Hall just ran a 4.68 40... the slowest of any corner so far by a full tenth of a second. It's an entirely different proposition comparing Wentz (or any FCS player's) tape against an FBS player.

Again, that's not saying Wentz can't be good, I'm saying you essentially cannot say he has shown he can do anything against NFL-quality players. He definitely threw some nice balls on Saturday, but we have no idea if he can do it at the speeds required at the NFL level. And it is another piece of evidence of how he seemed like a superman-level athleticism when in NFL terms he is very average for a QB.

There are just too many unanswerable questions to draft him at 2.

Who was the best tackle Bosa got a sack against? None against Indiana, MSU, or Notre Dame this year.

Bosa lined up on the left side most of the year, so he wouldn't have been facing Spriggs, Conklin, or Stanley much at all. But at least the caliber of player he built his tape on is comparable to his peers.

You also have to remember that Grimm criticized Cousins for playing against terrible defenses, yet never mentioned the defenses that Wentz faced.

Let's just say he is not the most objective poster...

Wentz was better than his peers, little JF had some good footage and many stated he could be a "decent" QB if he wasn't a complete a.. off the field...don't see Wentz as a Newton right off the bat AND he won't be Big Ben either because of supporting cast...JMHO, he has an upside AND he has no red flags.....GO Browns!!!! PS in a visit can we have him throw against our DBs or someone's???

The excuses are already mounting.

Maybe because those teams know how good Bosa is and double teamed him most of the game.

Cam Newton wasn't Cam Newton right off the bat.. his game didn't start evolving into what it is now until his 3rd year. A lot of local folks thought after years 1 and 2 that he was a bust waiting to happen who would never be good enough reading defenses and throwing from the pocket.


So you are saying drafting Wentz doesn't guarantee us starting 13-0? I'm bummed now.

I am in agreement that terms are best defined, especially within a heated argument.

The problem is, that even if we come to an agreement of definition for "Franchise QB" here, someone will likely use the term in 3-4 days, having not read or forgotten Jester's post (or simply no agreeing with what he said) meaning something else and the point of this discussion is lost.

Here's an idea; set up forum "Definition of Terms." Atop the forum have a sticky post listing the agreed upon term definitions and under that proposals/discussions of terms to be included. Once a consensus is reached, the sticky can be updated. Then, in the course of discussions, we all have a common understanding of what is meant, and if you want to use it with a different meaning, you specify what you mean.

I knew you would jump on my post the second I hit submit, but my economics class was starting and I figured to he'll with it.

I have said that Wentz' level of competition is a concern, but at the same time, Bosa didn't really face NFL caliber players much either.

The Draft is a projection business, that's why so many picks bust. Football is not easily broken down into quantifiable data that you can compare "apples to apples". There are an insane amount of variables that affect every play.

Wentz looked like his skills translated when he played bigger schools (Iowa State) and he was the best QB at the Senior Bowl. I didn't see him look like it was too fast for.him there.

I think Wentz has some of the best intangibles in the Draft and I find myself putting an emphasis on them after our recent failures.

I mentioned it in another thread. They were talking about Wentz after the audio channel got switched up. It also caught Charles Davis saying Stave's throwing was "awful."

*edit* actually, it was this thread, lol https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.php/topics/1083733/re-quarterback-shopping#Post1083733