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I think that that is a pretty fair take.
I was more looking at the actual strength and weakness write ups than the number at the top left when comparing Wentz and Cam. I've never really seen the formulation of how they come up with those numbers. For comparison's sake, Bosa's only a 6.8. I think a lot of the time NFL.com tweaks those numbers after the initial posting. The highest number this year is only a 7.7 (Tunsil). Wentz' 6.2 puts him as the 20th player with the Unupdated numbers, with Jaylon Smith one of the players still above him. I expect Wentz' grade will rise now.
There were people projecting Wentz and Goff in the 2nd, but some of those same people are projecting them high now. People were saying they'd take Gabbert over Cam. I think Wentz was projected there because of concerns about his level of competition, but has alleviated them somewhat now that evaluators have seen him more in person.
![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/fkjZc8B/Bull-Dawg-Sig-smaller.jpg) You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
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You really should be spending more time on your math class and less on talking about how Wentz poops golden bricks. LOL
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I had an exam on Monday. I'll find out how it went today, hopefully. I've been carrying a 4.0 so I'm really not too concerned, but I've actually had to work for it a little bit in that class.
Wentz is my guy this draft. If we're talking about other people, I'll try to stick to them. In a QB thread, I'm pimping Wentz.
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
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Every throw I saw from Goff was perfect.???
They showed a simple slant in the beginning I think the 2nd one was below the knees...not what you would call perfect for a simple slant.
On the first or second 15??? yard out. He threw behind the WR so that he had to stop and catch it on the left side of his body...probably an INT and likely pick 6.
This is going on memory and they didn't show all the throws. Far from perfect.
I know probably I would be guilty also we like a guy and then we tend to exaggerate on their success. 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Here is a list of quarterbacks taken in the first round since 1999.
1999 1 Tim Couch, Browns
1999 2 Donovan McNabb, Eagles
1999 3 Akili Smith, Bengals
1999 11 Daunte Culpepper, Vikings
1999 12 Cade McNown, Bears
2000 18 Chad Pennington, Jets
2001 1 Michael Vick, Falcons
2002 1 David Carr, Texans
2002 3 Joey Harrington, Lions
2002 32 Patrick Ramsey, Redskins
2003 1 Carson Palmer, Bengals
2003 7 Byron Leftwich, Jaguars
2003 19 Kyle Boller, Ravens
2003 22 Rex Grossman, Bears
2004 1 Eli Manning, Chargers
2004 4 Philip Rivers, Giants
2004 11 Ben Roethlisberger, Steelers
2004 22 J.P. Losman, Bills
2005 1 Alex Smith, 49ers
2005 24 Aaron Rodgers, Packers
2005 25 Jason Campbell, Redskins
2006 3 Vince Young, Titans
2006 10 Matt Leinart, Cardinals
2006 11 Jay Cutler, Broncos
2007 1 JaMarcus Russell, Raiders
2007 22 Brady Quinn, Browns
2008 3 Matt Ryan, Falcons
2008 18 Joe Flacco, Ravens
2009 1 Matthew Stafford, Lions
2009 5 Mark Sanchez, Jets
2009 17 Josh Freeman, Buccaneers
2010 1 Sam Bradford, Rams
2010 25 Tim Tebow, Broncos
2011 1 Cam Newton, Panthers
2011 8 Jake Locker, Titans
2011 10 Blaine Gabbert, Jaguars
2011 12 Christian Ponder, Vikings
2012 1 Andrew Luck, Colts
2012 2 Robert Griffin III, Redskins
2012 8 Ryan Tannehill, Dolphins
2012 22 Brandon Weeden, Browns
2013 16 EJ Manuel, Bills
2014 3 Blake Bortles, Jaguars
2014 22 Johnny Manziel, Browns
2014 32 Teddy Bridgewater, Vikings Take a look and see how many of these guys have actually won Super Bowls. Then, take a look at the guys who were drafted in the top 3 of the draft and see how many have won Super Bowls. Eli is the only one. Next, take a look at all the busts on that list. People talk about how the Browns HAVE TO take a qb at number 2, but the data suggests otherwise. If I mention that defenses are important and that Denver won this past one w/a great defense, then someone will mention Joe Montana or Tom Brady. Have people forgotten how great the 49ers roster was? Building off of that, Montana was drafted in the 3rd round. Brady in the 6th. R. Wilson in the 3rd. Farve was traded for. As was Steve Young. Brees was acquired in free agency. Wasn't Kurt Warner stocking shelves in a grocery store? Trent Dilfer played w/numerous teams. So did Rich Gannon. I think that you take the qb if there is a great one there, but forcing the issue by reaching for a guy just because you need one only compounds the problem. Look at some of those guys on the list. Locker, Ramsey, Campbell, Gabbert, Losman, Sanchez, Grossman, Young, Leinart, Quinn, Weeden, Timid, Manziel, Manuel, etc and then look at their teams SINCE that qb got there. Most are perpetual losers. Some will use that as a defense for the QBs, but one might want to consider that investing so heavily in a qb can be albatross to franchises because of the huge commitment they must make to that qb. Passing on better players hurts. Passing on better qbs in free agency, trade opportunities, and future drafts are absolutely devastating. You want to invest in a qb w/the second overall pick? Then, be sure your guy is the guy rather than saying "but, we need a qb." I wonder what the analytics would say about that chart???
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lol... I'm certainly not saying we need to draft a QB at 2, but the only reason the 2011 #1 overall QB pick didn't win the super bowl was because his team got beat by the 1998 #1 overall QB pick.
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Okay, and...........????
Take a look at the names on that list. All hyped guys. Many duds. Not sure how that isn't obvious.
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I really don't know what we should do Vers. The biggest difference in the QBs that succeeded and the ones that didn't that I can see is the talent they had around them. That doesn't bode well for us. At the same time, that is true for other positions, too.
If we can keep the oline together, Duke and crow progress, barnidge keeps his play up, Gordon gives us his good season numbers and we find another receiver in the second/third round, Wentz would have some things to work with.
I'd like to add a pass rusher, but you can't always fix everything in one offseason on a roster as in need of help as ours.
Bosa's position worries me. I can't stop worrying about Dockett's complaints about Horton's system.
I would love it if Spence dropped to the top of the 2nd. There he'd offer too much upside to pass despite those pesky red flags.
I just read that Knighton's a Free Agent? Think he at nose and Shelton at DE could fix our run D?
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
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I'm not suggesting we NEED to draft a QB at #2...I am suggesting we draft Wentz at #2 for our QB.
In that list of QBs drafted. The #2 slot QBs are only McNabb 1999, RG3 2012 and last year Mariota 2015.
None of them were at #2 and the First QB taken.
The only thing I fear is that somebody moves up to ONE as Wentz becomes the ideal stud QB of this draft.
Also as bad as our teams have been we have never been picking as early as the #2 overall pick since 2000 when we were #1. We have never been in the position to take the FIRST QB taken - except if there was a year that had no top QB and the first taken, Sanchez??? is not worth it.
I don't see Sanchez in Wentz.
If the worst happens then I don't want us taking the next best (Goff) unless for some reason some team would move up to #1 to take Goff...lol 
Now keep in mind - I AM SOLD ON WENTZ...which means nothing. The key is - Do the Browns, Hue and others see what I see. If they are sold on him then he is our guy!
Me saying it so or others means diddly.
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Things at Qb have clearly delineated to Goff vs Wentz as the top 2.
Lynch and Cook are clearly 3 and 4 but there is a huge separation between the 2 groups.
Pre combine, I liked Lynch but after seeing him try to do some of the things he was asked to do, I was disappointed. I thought he needed to sit a year but now I think he will need to sit 3-4 years. He is just sooo far behind the others. As a franchise we don't have that luxury. It may be an overreaction but I think I would move Cook ahead of Lynch at this point (for the Browns).
Comparing Goff and Wentz:
Goff has a quicker release
Wentz is bigger and has a stronger arm
Wentz had good footwork but Goff's was a little smoother
Goff seemed to throw with better anticipation - related to difference in arm strength?
Both seem to carry themselves well overall but neither came across as having that compelling personality. Last year, I see Mariota and think this is a dude I would like to chill out with a beer and just hang with. I look at Winston and don't like him. He seemed fake and insincere to me. I wouldn't have beers with him if he was paying for them. This year I look at both of these guys and get the same ambivalent feeling.
Both had good accuracy at the combine. Every throw I saw from Goff was perfect. I saw one bad throw from Wentz and one maybe throw (it was hard to see clearly). Obviously I didn't see every one of their throws.
Conclusion: I would be okay with either. I think the decision comes down to a couple things.
1, What all does Hue want his ideal Qb to be able to do physically and can both guys do it. I think Wentz can do pretty much anything you ask. I am not 100% certain Goff can. He might but I don't know. Hue should be able to tell rather easily.
2, How quick are they at making decisions? Goff has shown us exactly what his decision making skills are as compared to other Qb's who have come out in recent years. How quick of a decision maker is Wentz? I don't know. With his arm strength and the competition he played against he didn't need to be a quick decision maker to be successful. Vs that competition Weeden would look like a quick decision maker. This is not to say that Wentz is a slow decision maker. It raises the question of how quick/slow he is. It isn't as clear cut a comparison with him. I think this will be more difficult for Hue to figure out.
I don't know which of the 2 I would pick. I will put my trust in Hue and completely back whomever he decides is the best fit for his offense. These are my own personal observations. I think I did a pretty good job of staying unbiased because I don't have a favorite dog in this show.  Wentz not only got the name but all the nuances of the play even getting a little spunky when coach started interrupting him. Goff on the other hand seemed a little shaky. Now I understand that it was a dismally small sample, but it is all I have to go by.
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I have been staring at that list and thinking back to the discussions we have had on the boards over the years. Pretty amazing.
For instance:
--the big argument over Smith and Rodgers and how some people actually preferred Campbell.
--The discussion about whether we should take BQ at number 3 or move up to take Russell w/the first overall pick.
--People were saying we should pass on Manning, Rivers, and Big Ben.
--How RGIII was going to be great and that we should trade everything for him. Now, the Skins might take a 7th round pick for him.
--Locker, Gabbert or Ponder? LOL
--Vince Young or Leinart? Wow!!!
I get passion and hope, but sometimes reality is a real kick in the butt.
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well the only one I was guilty of was RG3...and I still maintain he would have been great if not for the fact he became damaged goods from the end of his rookie season. Never the same. Physically and Mentally..
jmho
I did ignore posters who were promoting Big Ben..he was small school and I PRESUMED it was just local guys promoting the local kid...I didn't even check him out.
But to this day I say that was the biggest drafting error of this 99-present Browns....smh
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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I think u can trade down and still get Goff or Wentz. Both guys are gonna drop unless we pull the trigger on one early.
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I wanted us to draft Big Ben big time! I like the idea of a QB with size and a big arm. That being said I thought Mettenberger was a steal as well. The jury is still out on that one I guess.
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I think that it's the sort of decision that cannot be formulated in a vacuum.
You have to take a look at QB's available in free agency and how you feel those QB's stack up against what you feel the guys in the draft can get you.
Then, as far as where you pick those guys, it comes down to where you need to take them to ensure that you get who you've targetted combined with factoring in the importance of the position - do we gain more by improving the QB position than say something on defense?
IF you think that a guy like Wentz is the best QB available for us, and IF you think he will be a step up from the guys we have, then you just have to look at that 1st rounder as the price for getting that player - no different than paying extra to attract a free agent.
You absolutely need to look at the whole picture, and you absolutely do not take a QB just because you need/want a QB - but if your research on the players shows that one of those QB's could be legitimate, then you really do have to take the guy at #2 because that's just the price of going for a QB.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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You did like Rodgers a lot. That was a good call. I liked him, too. However, after his terrible bowl performance and some of the things that were reported AFTER the season, I switched to Smith. Man, that was dumb on my part.
I did pimp Big Ben, though. Not sure if most thought we needed a qb that year.
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I have been staring at that list and thinking back to the discussions we have had on the boards over the years. Pretty amazing.
For instance:
--the big argument over Smith and Rodgers and how some people actually preferred Campbell.
--The discussion about whether we should take BQ at number 3 or move up to take Russell w/the first overall pick.
--People were saying we should pass on Manning, Rivers, and Big Ben.
--How RGIII was going to be great and that we should trade everything for him. Now, the Skins might take a 7th round pick for him.
--Locker, Gabbert or Ponder? LOL
--Vince Young or Leinart? Wow!!!
I get passion and hope, but sometimes reality is a real kick in the butt.
You sound about Wentz like a lot of people sounded about Bridgewater or Roethlisberger. It's a double-edged sword type deal. We won't know which way it cuts till after the fact. I don't see a lot (any really, the small school guy succeeded)of the red flags that ended up causing those players you mentioned that failed in Wentz. I am hopeful, but as a Browns fan what else have I got? My memory is kind of hazy on my board presence during past QB discussions, but this is the first guy I really feel like I've backed to the hilt.
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
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I was an advocate of drafting both Ben and Teddy.
The Smith/Rodgers story I mentioned earlier taught me a lot about how dumb it is to move guys up or down significantly AFTER the games end.
Buyer beware!
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I think u can trade down and still get Goff or Wentz. Both guys are gonna drop unless we pull the trigger on one early.
You fall in love with a QB...and you don't take one at #2 if you don't fall in love with them...you don't take a chance on being cute and dropping back. My only fear is that as more and more study Wentz there will be teams trying to move up to #1 to get him.
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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I'm convinced that trading from a high draft picks is just a sign of a FO that doesn't know what to do.
Just stay put and sign a franchise player, that's what good teams do.
Last edited by rastanplan; 03/02/16 02:58 PM.
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Okay, and...........????
Take a look at the names on that list. All hyped guys. Many duds. Not sure how that isn't obvious.
I completely agree with your message. Reaching for a bad QB is the worst thing a team can do I believe (see Weeden, Ponder, and Gabbert as the posterboys) The truth is, there are very few super bowl winning QBs. On the other hand, three of the four starting QBs in the championship games this year were number one overall picks, and the other one has won how many of the super bowls of the last 15 years?
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per a report on profootballtalk (Zac Jackson), the seven QBs on Jon Gruden's QB Camp (ESPN) this year will be:
Jared Goff
Carson Wentz
Connor Cook
Cardale Jones
Paxton Lynch
Dak Prescott
Christian Hacknberg
Series will start airing April 12th.
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per a report on profootballtalk (Zac Jackson), the seven QBs on Jon Gruden's QB Camp (ESPN) this year will be:
Jared Goff
Carson Wentz
Connor Cook
Cardale Jones
Paxton Lynch
Dak Prescott
Christian Hacknberg
Series will start airing April 12th. If invited you would be silly to not go to that.. Gruden goes out of his way to make them all look good.
yebat' Putin
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My saying is, "Gruden never met a QB he didn't like."
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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per a report on profootballtalk (Zac Jackson), the seven QBs on Jon Gruden's QB Camp (ESPN) this year will be:
Jared Goff
Carson Wentz
Connor Cook
Cardale Jones
Paxton Lynch
Dak Prescott
Christian Hacknberg
Series will start airing April 12th. If invited you would be silly to not go to that.. Gruden goes out of his way to make them all look good. It's kind of the point.
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I know probably I would be guilty also we like a guy and then we tend to exaggerate on their success. That's not a fair criticism. I am not pimping either Qb I have no preference I stated every throw I saw I qualified that I didn't see all the throws Perhaps you saw some throws that I didn't Perhaps you are remembering throws from someone else and attribute them to Goff Regardless, I offered up my observations and you are trying to belittle them by making it seem I am biased. That is not the case. If you saw some throws I didn't fine. If you saw the same throws and don't agree with my assessment then fine. But don't try to discredit my opinion by accusing me of bias. Perhaps you are seeing things different because you want Wentz???
Last edited by Jester; 03/03/16 12:16 AM.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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We talk a lot about which QB to take at #2. We talk some about any available free agent Qb. We have talked very little lately about trade for a Qb options.
Now that Brady signed a 2 year contract extension, does that put Garoppolo back in play? Will the Patriots look to flip him for a draft pick then draft another developmental Qb?
Would you trade pick #32 for Jimmy G straight up?
If yes, would you up that to #32 and our 4th this year if need be?
If yes, would you give #32 and next year's 2nd round pick?
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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Would you trade pick #32 for Jimmy G straight up? If we are going to give up significant compensation for a totally unproven QB, then I would rather draft a QB at pick #2 and have his rookie contract for four years.
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I believe in 5 years Lynch will be the best Qb of this group but Wentz will be a Brown.
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Would you trade pick #32 for Jimmy G straight up? No, but if the Pats tossed in their 3rd or 4th I would seriously consider it. Jimmy G is not quite a known commodity, but does have time in the NFL (practices, preseason)
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Interesting answers guys. I truly expected more Jimmy G love out there.
I see #32 as the appropriate price for Jimmy G. I think the Pats will want more. Specifically I think they will want two 2nd rounders. I don't know what they would get for him. What was the trade value for Mallett?
I would trade #32 straight up for him. He has some NFL seasoning yet still 2? years left on his rookie contract? Plus I think he is an equivalent prospect to Wentz and Goff but with 2 Patriots training camps under his belt.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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Follow-up
Googled the Mallett trade. Looks like he went for a conditional 6th round pick
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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Perhaps you are remembering throws from someone else and attribute them to Goff
It was right there I think crfs provided the links one for Wentz one for Goff. I watched the Goff one and after I questioned your "PERFECT" I described from that video the throws that weren't perfect right there on this thread. And it was a small sample less then 10 throws?
Instead of going to that video and have a disagreement of what I saw, right away I'm wrong, must of been somebody else.
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you were a Goff guy and bias was the reason of your claim. Sorry, I think you are a good poster but heck I saw like 10 throws and 2 were bad...sort of cuts into that claim of "PERFECT"
Just the facts of what I saw, if I am wrong please show my errors - my descriptions would be obvious to what pass I was talking about.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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LOL.............I see at least considering the list of first round qbs I presented isn't working. Why let facts get in the way of an agenda? 
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Just stay put and sign a franchise player, that's what good teams do. Yeah, like New England. 
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LOL.............I see at least considering the list of first round qbs I presented isn't working. Why let facts get in the way of an agenda?
We are at two and we should have first choice at QB...we have good QB experience in our staff. If they see what you see, they won't take a QB at #2. If they see what I see they will take Wentz at #2 and only Wentz.
I get your opinion, I'm sure you get my opinion. I don't take it personal and I hope you don't take my opinion personal. I don't think either carries more weight than the other. Its just my pick not yours we are talking about.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Sorry I didn't see any relevance to the list as none are in this draft So, we shouldn't learn from the past? Gotcha.
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yep that is what I said.
You see something in that...obviously not many...what are you trying to say...NEVER PICK A QB...unless we are the overall #1 pick and a stud is there.
In your mind you have a point. But for some reason you think it should be THE POINT AND FINAL POINT. Tell me which of those QBs is Wentz. I see Wentz as being better than Tannehill.
You probably will tell me Gabbert? Not Bortles?
Odd several comparison I see is with LUCK..of course they put disclaimers in there lol
Most people read what you wrote. You felt insulted nobody was acclaiming it as "well thats it I guess" - I responded and didn't do so to insult or hurt your feelings.
Then you came back with a SPIRITBRO response.
We should learn from the past...just what is it that we should learn? How does that apply to Wentz?
btw I made a response with numbers comparing the overall# 2 picks on that list. None of which were the First QB taken.
Hey got news for you. for me this is a best scenario for us to pick a Franchise QB....we will not be in the top 5 let alone #1 or #2 spots to take THE QB of the draft.
What I have learned from history its very hard to have a big hit from the first round when its the 2nd, 3r, or 4th QB being taken. There are exceptions. big Ben, Rodgers but not many.
This is a rare occasion that to me a real live Franchise QB prospect can be available to us. To compare him to a Ponder or other failures just is not accurate.
Just like we could have taken other players besides Joe Thomas it would have been a mistake cause LT is that important. To me QB is the most important. Learn from the past - yeah don't pass on your Big Bens! That is what Ive learned.
Again all said and done..you and I don't count in this
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
LOL.............I see at least considering the list of first round qbs I presented isn't working. Why let facts get in the way of an agenda? So no team should ever draft a QB in the top two?
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
You see something in that...obviously not many...what are you trying to say...NEVER PICK A QB...unless we are the overall #1 pick and a stud is there. That isn't even close to my point. In your mind you have a point. But for some reason you think it should be THE POINT AND FINAL POINT. And that is a complete fabrication. I was hoping for a discussion.
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