DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Veteran QB? I don't think so....

People have been talking about adding a vet QB with game day experience. I personally don't think we need one. I thought this deserved it's own post since there has been plenty of discussion on it. Here are my thoughts on why we don't need an experienced Vet QB.


What is so important about a veteran QB? We pay a QB coach to teach, develop, and train the QB's. The QB coach will do more for a QB then what a backup will and what a backup can do. A QB coach is a coach because he can teach not because he can play the game. A QB is a QB because they play the game not because they can teach a player how to play the game. If the QB coach isn't getting the job done then wtf do we have him for?
I believe that a real QB knows what pressure feels like... A real QB knows how to watch film. IF they don't... they have no business being drafted in the first. However, I do believe a third round QB will need to be molded, trained, and taught all of the things that people mention but not with a true first round QB.

A veteran QB that everyone wants has not learned from his mistakes... I believe mostly what everyone wants is an experienced backup. I think QB and RB don't really need a veteran player in from of them. There are not many players at that position that are going to start. Most of the time it's consistantly just one. With a RB people say we bring in a young guy to carry some of the load but with a QB we say we need a veteran to teach them? We hardly ever make any mention of the veteran RB tutoring the youngster...

According to scouts and experts we have the most NFL ready QB of this years draft and from a number of previous years. When I think of NFL ready QB's to come out of the Drafts. When I think of NFL ready QB's comming out of the draft I think of Peyton Manning, Dan Marino, Elway, and I think of guys that did at least average or even tore it up their first year b/c they understood the game and the playbook.

Did all the great QB's really have a tutor? not so much... They had a back up that was the likes of Dorsey. Dorsey maybe young but he does exactally what a backup QB does... holds the clipboard send in the plays and works with the starter to be better. Just because he's young doesn't mean he doesn't know how to play football or what it takes to be the backup QB. Dorsey is a lifetime backup that is perfect for the job and will be around a long time. He will develop a chemistry with the starter that will last a long time and will only make them better. I did some research to prove that first round QB's don't have experienced QB's tutoring them. Here are my examples on good/great QB's and what they had for a vet QB behind them...

Donavan Mcnab

Doug Peterson's
career numbers from 93 to 98 were... 18 completions with 32 attempts... 2 td's and 19 games experience...

Koy Detmer was drafted in 98 not what I’d call experienced...

Peyton Manning

torrance small

had one attempt and he was a real veteran

Joe Montanna

Benjamin Guy
hahaha um no... 29 attempts 16 completions 1 td 2 ints 3 seasons experience

Freddie Solomon
yeah 4 years exp with 13 attempts 6 competions0 td's 1 int


The Beloved Bernie Kosar
was drafted to be Gary Danielson's backup so he doesn't count

Dan Marino

Jim Jensen
1 year experience 1 attempt 0 completions

Don strock
eh... I guess you could call him an experienced vet... 9 years experience never had a stellar year most attempts in a season was 135 and never threw over 1,000 yards in a season. not someone who I’d want to have teach the ropes to my starting QB. JMHO


John Elway

Gary Kubiuak
same story drafted in 83 103 career attempts never threw more then 450 yards in a season... 6 career td's typical backup.

Scott Stankavage
hahaha played one season in 84. 18 attempts and 4 completions with one int.



If there are other Qb's you want to throw in the mix... I’d like to see who was on the roster when they were drafted. Just remember 2 things... they had to be drafted to be a starter so Tom Brady and all the others that beat the odds don't count and they probably should be drafted by the team they were picked by. It's not the same if they go on later to be a great QB after being traded to a different team.

All the great QB's that were drafted to be the starter for the most part did not have the veteran QB that everyone wants... So maybe what people are saying is that they don't believe BQ was drafted to be the starter or they don't believe he is that great? I wonder why we just spent next year's first pick on him then? Not one of these guys that i just listed off had more then 135 attempts in a season... That's not what id call an experienced vet.... unless you mean you want someone who is old and has barely played any games? Maybe they could tell our starting QB how bad they sucked, never started, and how they succeeded at being a backup.I know I wouldn't want a Vet who plays like crap has horrible habbits to look at, talk to, or teach my mega million investment golden boy how to be a QB in the NFL. JMHO

Phil said we're not getting a veteran QB, plain and simple. So I don't know what the big debate is about. Not happening. Gee, I want a million dollars. Unless, I play and win the lottery, I'm not going to get it. So what's the point in arguing over or even discussing the issue?

I'm pretty sure we will go with the QB's we have less one.. Which one is probably going to be between Dorsey and Anderson. For the life of me, I don't see them dumping Charlie in favor of either of those two guys,,,

I still contend we need a vet. Nuances don't teach themselves.

JMO

Ya know, I've read where Dorsey is this brainy QB that just lacks the skills to be a consistantly good player. I've read this quite a bit, at least on here. So my question would be, "Why keep him on the roster?" . Hell, if he's that smart make him a coach. He's got to have seen the handwriting on the wall by now. Seriously, he's played a handful of games in the NFL, SF couldn't wait to unload him, and he's our 3rd QB. On a team that, if you listen to some, didn't have a QB that could tie his own shoes before we drafted Quinn.
Why do most on here seem to think Dorsey (Ken, that is) is all that and a can of beer? I just don't see it.

I've heard time and time again that Dorsey is some kinda brainiac... That's terrific, but it's pretty clear he can't play in the NFL due entirely to a lack of physical skills. (if it ain't brains thats kept him from starting,, it must be a lack of physical skills right? )

So, who's in favor of keeping a guy on the roster that should never see the field instead of a guy who's started in the NFL (take your pick, Charlie or Derek, which ever)

It's a no brainer to me. Keep Frye and Anderson.. one of them start until Quinn is ready,,, If ever? (look, don't yell at me for saying "if ever"... we all know that there is even money on if he'll make it or not in the NFL, pretty much the same as any other rookie)

My thinking is that the coaching staff will place some value on having a guy like Dorsey on the team.

That value may outweigh the value of having a Derek Anderson or a Charlie Frye as a third string quarterback.

And not that any of them would have all that much trade value, but Dorsey would have the least of the three I would think.

it's about comraderie...hearing it from a partner is sometimes better than hearing it from a coach.

Then let them talk to their wives.......LOL

I'll take that extra roster spot and give it to someone who has a real possibility of seeing the field. But that's just me.

with the Browns luck with injuries... i doubt it..

our 3 will be Frye, Anderson, and Quinn...

Well what exactly is a Veteran QB?

QB is one of the toughest positions to fill and find for that matter. I am always sceptical of any QB that is made available. Why would they be available?

1. Younger, better QB is ready.
2. Contract is too high.
3. Eroding skills that just don't warrant keeping for his accrued experience.
4. Never really was good enough for a starter but hung around and learned enough to make him valuable.
5. Possible on the field QB coach if you don't carry one or if game day he's in the booth.

Well if you look at it in many ways - Ken Dorsey is that Veteran QB and fits in that #4 interpretation with some starts.

And in some ways although just in his 3rd season - Frye is a somewhat a Veteran with what 18 starts and involved with game plans against our Divisional Rivals.

More important do we have faith in our QB coach...we seem to like him and he has taught CF a lot considering the college program he came from.

I happen to agree - and as we have learned sometimes unless its a Dorsey type this veteran QB coming in might Talk the talk of mentor but deep down - he wants to Start and that is why he's coming here - not to mentor but to start. Sometimes this might not be the best personality to bring in for the young QBs.

I really wish Dilfer remained - Savage made a good choice. It was one of the main negatives I had with Mo as he was the primary proponent in us losing Dilfer. Not many would have been the perfect mold for what we need. He was it - He is gone...I like what we got right now. If our QB coach is worth spit - BQ will be ready by 08.

JMHO

Isn't that the truth eotab. How good would this QB group look to us right now?

Charlie Frye
Trent Dilfer
Brady Quinn

Then we could dump Anderson AND Dorsey. That would have been really, really nice.

IMO as it stands now, barring a trade of Frye, Anderson or Dorsey will be cut. If I was the one making the decisions, it'd be Anderson.

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The QB coach will do more for a QB then what a backup will and what a backup can do.

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While I see your point and partially agree with it, you can't undermind the importance of a veteran presence.

Also, I disagree with above quoted statement. While the QB coach is very important, he's not on the field, the backup/veteran has been there and done that. This gives a very different point of view for a rookie QB to learn from.

I don't see us getting a vet, but a vet could provide experince and a point of view that Dorsey and/or the QB coach doesn't quite have to offer.

I don't care either way, if we had a vet I'd support that, if we go with what we got I'll support that, I just want to see this team start winning games.

"Im saying that while Dorsey might be a good teacher, what does he have to teach as far as NFL experience,a nd what to expect. He has basically no frame of refference."

He's been in the NFL since 03 and has started 10 games which btw was 10 more games started then KH when he took over for the injured Couch.

He is not known for his talent skills as an NFL QB and yet he has made a living of it...this is because of his ASSET which is of the Cerebral nature of the position.

If you are talking about a QB coach on the field...who cares how great his skills were or are as a PLAYER. Its how well he understands the new offense (which honestly might be understood and obsorbed much faster by Dorsey than Green or Bledsoe types) if you are talking about a Vet QB to actually play for our team then ok Dorsey ain't your guy. But still even with just 4 campaigns he can serve as that Mentor to those who possess much more Skill Sets than He.

There is a reason why he is here...Savage saw him as the younger version at least mentally of what he saw in Dilfer.

I think Dorsey can serve his purpose. Right now he does appear to be the odd man out. Unless we fully intend on keeping CF here as a backup rather than trying to move him in the future. Thus making Anderson obsolete.

Just thinking out loud...but I cannot think of a better #3 than Dorsey especially when #1 n #2 are Young promising QBs.

JMHO

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I think Dorsey can serve his purpose. Right now he does appear to be the odd man out. Unless we fully intend on keeping CF here as a backup rather than trying to move him in the future. Thus making Anderson obsolete.

Just thinking out loud...but I cannot think of a better #3 than Dorsey especially when #1 n #2 are Young promising QBs.

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I could not concur more...

Dorsey can be every bit the Vet QB on this team...Experience and Brains far outweighs arm strength and such...

I'd start talking to Frye's agent when the season starts and tell him that it's OBVIOUS our future is in the hands of Quinn...We want u as our #2 for a LONG ASS TIME!!!!!!!!!!!

I doubt Frye would go for that. Being an ex-nfl starter, he might try to get traded to a team wto a QB or in a risky situation. May be like Detroit or some other team. He'll want to keep the opportunity to start, but if he wants to be number 2 for our team, lock him up obviously.

I hope Frye handles losing the job well at whatever point. I hope it's in Quinn Season 2 or later in the season. I don't wanna play the rookie QB before we have to. If our team's really good, may be. but otherwise, dont do it

I'm not 100% positive Peen but I am pretty sure that we would not carry 4 QBs. In this day n age of 53 man rosters - some teams don't carry 3. We will not carry 4.

I don't see moving CF this season...obviously BQ will not be ready to start from Game 1...if he does it only is indicitive of our other QBs talents or lack of.

In lieu of that I can see us either signing CF long term as our Backup...or trading him for possibly something lucrative after the season (pending on his production) if a possible trade value then Anderson become rather valuable for us for the backup...then again maybe we rely on Dorsey as that backup with BQ being pretty big he might be durable enough where our #2 never sees the light of day. Which I can then see Anderson being the odd man out.

But I'm almost sure as I can be we won't carry 4.

JMHO

Normally I would say that too.......but based on what we have invested in Quinn, it makes the most sense to pair him up with someone who understand the mental part of the game....I just don't see Charlie or Derek doing much for him there....and no matter what anybody says....I don't know they would be 100% willing to really help the guy.

Dorsey knows how he can help a team. I really don't want to get rid of that guy...he is a perfect #3 qb.....I mean perfect.

Like I mentioned in another post on the topic some time back....how often do 3rd string qbs come in and win games anyway?? Not very often....so when you get a guy who gets it, and is willing to take that role.....you need to keep him.....no team is going to have a stable of QBs who can step in and win games for them, so you might as well quit looking and be satisfied with what you have....especially if the 3rd guy is a smart guy.

In most cases, the 3rd guy is a clipboard holder waiting for his chance and still dreams of winning Superbowl MVP. In our case, we still have a clipboard holder....but one who acts like a coach and can pick the game and see things...I don't think you get rid of a player like that for some rookie safety(or whatever) who really isn't going to amount to much other than a few ST tackles.

We can find those tackles in a few other players I am sure.

To me....it isn't a question of Dorsey....it is a question of who will bring you more potential value somewhere down the road....the safety or either Chuck or Derick??

At this point, the answer is very clear to me.

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If we can't move one of Frye/Anderson, I think there is a good chance we keep 4 qbs this season. The benefit Dorsey brings in the clubhouse and practice field is to me more than some 4th string safety who is going to bring into the mix.

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I must be a complete idiot or fool or dope or dummy,, But I don't know what you guys are talking about when you say Dorsey has worth,,,, Granted, he's supposed to be cerebral.... But if you want to talk about a weak arm,, well, there you go.

I can't see him having more worth than Frye,,, not even close and while I think he's closer to Anderson, I still think Anderson has more worth.

Is it just hatrid for Frye and/or Anderson that makes people say that about Dorsey,, come on, someone explain it to me please!

Not once did I argue regarding Dorsey being the perfect backup and actually I made the same argument regarding his value. I know in my original thought at first glance Dorsey seems to be the odd man out.

All I stated and will restate...I don't think we will carry 4 QBs. Strongly think we will not carry 4 - which doesn't necessarily mean that Dorsey is gone just makes his tenure here in jeopardy. I don't know how much they believe in Anderson or they pump him up a little cause the Media seems to have liken themselves to him. I know what I saw from him and I cannot be that wrong on my evaluations???

JMHO

we dont need Dorsey...

i doubt very seriously that Frye or Anderson listen to anything he has to say when it comes to football...

General comments...

I totally disagree with PS on the issue of a good quality veteran QB being an absolute need in the mix on any roster... This means I disagree with most on this thread... This is cool...

The experience, leadership, poise and knowing that if the young stud goes down or needs more time, you have a proven guy to come in and get the job done... Win... The Browns haven’t had this for going on two seasons...

IMO this is flawed and unproven thinking and football phylosophy. Veterans OB's help immensely off the field, in the film room, before during and after practice and the same on game days... People whom have played & coached, have been there know how important/valuable a quality veteran/mentor player is to any team.

The list that was given regarding OB's that didn't have mentors or vets to help can be easily refuted... If you we go back and look at who was actually on those rosters when those HOFers were coming along, you'll see some veteran QB's in the mix...

My QB list is; #1 BQ, #2 veteran, #3 CF... The rest are roster fodder, just camp arms... IMO.

j/c:

I do know this...........Charlie was in contact w/Dilfer quite a bit last season looking for advice.

There is something to be said for this.

Most of the time, the best teachers are the ones who didn't have great natural talent. Instead, they got to where they were w/intelligence, hard work, preperation, and by paying attention to detail.

Many great athletes do not develop those skills, instead getting by w/true athleticism. For example........I bet Joe J. would make a much better coach than Leon. Hank Fraley would make a much better coach than Leonard Davis.

And think about this. There is no greater golfer in the world than Tiger Woods, yet he has a coach who isn't even on the tour.

Want more examples...........Bill Cowher, Bill Belichick, Marty, Gruden.......all great coaches who weren't quite gifted enough to ever be a superstar.

It would be wrong to knock a guy as a teacher/coach/mentor because he isn't as "good" as another player.

all of those guys have something in common... experience

Exactly......most coaches played at one time, and most weren't all that good as players.....it is all about skill sets.

Some can get it done on the field.....some can help others get it done..

Good teams understand who can get it done where.

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Dorsey has as much value to us as a 3rd qb and Frye or Anderson does as a 2nd

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Peen,, I'm sorry buddy,, I must be really stupid this morning, but that doesn't make any sense to me at all.

It is about team building.....having some Indians to go with all the Chiefs.....having too many chefs in the kitchen......something like that.

Sometimes a players mind set is as important.....even more important than his skill set.

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My QB list is; #1 BQ, #2 veteran, #3 CF... The rest are roster fodder, just camp arms... IMO.

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How can you give BQ the #1 spot right now? And why would you? We've seen time and time again that it is much better (with or without the tutelage of a veteran QB) for a new QB to sit and watch and learn for a year.

My list is:

1. Frye
2. Anderson
3. Quinn

Dependent on what progress he makes in camp, Quinn might move up on my depth chart one spot by September....and he would only see limited game action this season unless everyone else was dead.

I would have cut Dorsey the same day we drafted Quinn. He is wasting space on the roster and will never amount to anything of value for us. He is expendable....and as 'tab said we won't carry 4 QBs.....