DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns Big Brain front office - not ready for prime time...

If Cleveland Browns fans are steamed about Wednesday's events imagine how Joe Thomas must feel: Tom Reed

BEREA, Ohio – Browns left tackle Joe Thomas spent the past two seasons watching his coach win coin tosses and elect to kick off.

Wednesday, the 31-year-old future Hall of Famer, who's never appeared in a postseason game, saw his franchise ostensibly defer until 2018.

The Browns failed to re-sign receiver Travis Benjamin, safety Tashaun Gipson, right tackle Mitchell Schwartz and Pro Bowl center Alex Mack on the first day of free agency. A quartet of homegrown talent signed elsewhere in what amounted to Cleveland's ugliest 0-for-4 since Keith Hernandez went through the motions in an Indians uniform in 1990.

If Browns fans are outraged, you can only imagine how Thomas must feel. Here's a perennial All Pro who's left bits and pieces of his body scattered across NFL stadiums from the Meadowlands to Seattle without ever missing a snap since debuting in 2007.

He's been richly compensated financially, but the competitor in him has received little payoff playing for one of the sports world's worst franchises. Just when Thomas mustered the optimism to give the latest regime the benefit of the doubt, he watched them drag the team back into expansion mode – not that the Browns have strayed far from it the last 17 years.

It's easy to overreact after one day in which the club's chances to contend next season got exponentially worse. The Browns have a big draft -- complete with the No. 2 overall pick -- coming up next month. They also added some nice compensatory picks for 2017.

But what does that do for Thomas and the remaining veterans on the roster? His first phone call should be to Sashi Brown, the club's new vice president of football operations, to ask if he were misquoted when delivering this statement:

"It's important that we keep our own. It sends the right message to the locker room when you reward guys who do it the right way ..."

As the first day of the NFL's new year ended, Benjamin (Chargers), Gipson (Jaguars), Mack (Falcons) and Schwartz (Chiefs) were gone while Johnny Manziel and Dwayne Bowe remained on the roster. There's a message for you.

Thomas' second phone call should be to his agent: "Get me the hell out of here."

The best left tackle of his era was so close to winning a Super Bowl ring a few months ago as the Browns nearly pulled the trigger on a trade with the Broncos. The Browns reportedly could have reaped a 2016 second-round pick and a 2017 first-round pick.

The organization would have taken a temporary public-relations hit during a nightmarish 3-13 season, but it pales to Wednesday's fiasco. This wasn't akin to allowing 37-year-old Phil Dawson to walk. Mack, 30, a three-time Pro Bowler, is in his prime. Benjamin, 26, Gipson, 25, and Schwartz, 26, are just entering their peak years.

Related: Joe Thomas pleased with Hue Jackson hiring

Retaining all four was unrealistic, but Thomas must feel like he's playing for pro football's version of a D-League team – always developing talent for others. T.J. Ward, Jabaal Sheard, Buster Skrine, the list goes on. This is what happens when new regimes have no connection with players they didn't draft. It happens everywhere. It just happens in Cleveland on a regular basis.

And, can we please stop with the asinine line of thinking that follows: "The Browns never won anything with those players in the lineup." Clearly, the rest of the league doesn't share that opinion. All four UFAs were lavished with big contracts Wednesday.

In fairness, free agency is a two-way street and Mack in particular seemed ready for a fresh start, reuniting with Falcons' offensive coordinator Kyle Shanahan and his wide-zone blocking scheme. Mack didn't have his best year last season coming off a broken leg, but his absence creates a serious hole in the Browns' line. Same with Schwartz.

Cleveland's offensive front had its issues in 2015 for various reasons, but removing two of its best assets doesn't improve its prospects for next season. Or, offer comfort to any rookie quarterback playing behind it. The club had enough holes without creating more.

Thomas no doubt heard coach Hue Jackson talk of the desire for "high character" players only to witness four of them depart. The Browns likely will dispatch Manziel and Bowe in the coming days, but their continual presence made for terrible optics Wednesday.

As last season ended, a frustrated Thomas told reporters for the first time he might welcome a trade. (The left tackle still has three years remaining on his deal.) After the franchise hired Jackson, however, he returned to his default setting: the loyal Browns subject ready to serve his sixth head coach in 10 years:

"Yeah, I'm in and super-excited about Hue,'' Thomas said Feb. 13. "I think he's going to do a great job and as long as they hit on that quarterback pick, we're set up for a nice run, something the Browns deserve and the Browns fans deserve."

He made those comments never imaging the Browns would resemble a startup team less than a month later. They are facing a total rebuild, one that buys time for the new administration and coaches but does nothing for players like Thomas and Karlos Dansby.

Not long after the 2015 trade deadline I wrote the Browns might revisit a Thomas deal in the off-season. The events of Wednesday only strengthen that belief.

If Thomas comes to management and asks to be moved the Browns should strongly consider it. Give him a chance to play elsewhere and add more valuable pieces to a roster makeover.

Thomas deserves an opportunity win – something the Browns won't supply any time soon.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2016/03/if_cleveland_browns_fans_are_s.html

I get it,but I think people are overreacting. Good players don't want to come here. Do you really want the new guys offering contracts like Dwayne Bowe's?

What do we have to sell to free agents? Our "star" player on offense is a tackle. What receiver wants to tie his fortune to catching passes from Josh McCown?

Our defense under performs year after year, and looked like it was setting players up to fail last year. Who wants to join that?

Hue is supposedly attractive to players, but with our history who knows how long he'll be here.

Seriously, if you were a desired commodity in free agency is this the place you would pick?

At this point, I almost think we're best off sitting out the free agency period and taking the comp picks.

We're going to have to build through the draft. This season is probably going to hurt, but hopefully we can finally find our QB of the future while we're at pick 2.

This new front office will have to prove there worth in the draft.

Schwartz is the only one I am scratching my head about. Benjamin got #2 money, he isn't a #2, Mack took less to work with a coach he likes and I believe more guaranteed money and there was still bad blood between Gibson and the team from the contract issues last year so he got more money than they thought he was worth.

It's not like they were sitting around watching Netflix, it appears they made offers and those were not enough. If they paid them more and we still didn't win any more games you would all be screaming about how they overpaid for mediocre talent being a sign of how they aren't football people blah blah blah.

We've overpaid in free agency and it hasn't worked. I'm open to see if they do more on the second day, how the draft goes and how they use the people we still have.

The Browns ALWAYS say that they are going to build through the draft and not overspend in free agency. That ain't new.

And it also hasn't worked. Wanna know why, because they let their guys walk and continually blow things up on their coaching staff and FO.

They feed the fans w/crap like: "we're not going to overspend in free agency," "we will build through the draft," "we have a plan in place," etc

And the fans buy it time after time after time.........

They don't "let" their guys walk. They just walk. They can't make them stay.

I'm not excusing the past, but the building through the draft is the way we'll have to do it. We can't attract players in FA.

We have to stop blowing things up. We have to hit on picks. I'm not buying anything, it's simply what it'll take if we're ever going to win.

In agreement with you Southwestdawg. In the words of Aaron Rodgers "re-lax."
We can no longer manage the way we have in the past. We don't know what the plan is. Did the Browns really feel, after watching film, these players were that much better than what they could get for less money in free agency?
Were they trying to show fans they were making a "real" effort to resign their players. Outside of Schwartz (and this is still in question) I didn't lose any sleep of these guys walking. All overpaid. Mack didn't want to be here. Period. Players will not want to come here until there is a change in culture.
It's the second day of free agency. Wait and see what moves are made to fill these holes. This will not be a quick fix. I'm as frustrated as any Browns fan, but it is what it is. 5-11, 5-11, 7-9, 3-13. It has to bottom out somewhere. Let's hope this is it and begin the turn-around.

I agree. The biggest problem is they don't buy what they're saying. We never retain our own talent. I love seeing people state yeah but they got overpaid to go elsewhere. Yeah, well its not like we're hurting for cap space. If we wanted to keep all of those guys (not just from this year) we could. We may have overpaid, but at least we'd still have a base to work with.

Instead we have a crappy base to work with, and those that do develop will be shipped off when the next regime comes in because we'll suck so bad in the meantime Jimmy will lose his patience again. And it will, within 2-3 years. It's beyond sad. I am so uninterested in the Browns right now its disgusting.

I won't make excuses for the loss of pretty good guys, But it's rather harsh to say the "Big Brain" front office isn't ready for prime time. At least yet.

There may come a time when I'll agree with you, but not yet.

I'm on board with that. The "holes" (Mack, Schwartz) are being reconfigured as, if I recall, Hue wants more power running thus our Oline may need restaffing. I am eager to see how this all plays out, but as mer13 stated, it's going to take a bit of time...

I'd be a lil less upset had I any faith the Browns could draft winners as opposed to the losers we take and have been taking.

No exaggeration, but failing to retain at least one of the linemen, to me, is already a sign of negative things to come with this new front office.

If the report Moneyball provided indicated, hey let's regress and become an even worse team, then obviously we followed it up 100%.

+1, all the players who left have been on bottom feeder teams, we are what we are, BUT we need to hit on new guys, draft, who are hungry AND will put in the time to be great....Thomas did it, we need to hit on real young players...NOT, let's tear this league up, NOT give any effort because I'm so good kind of guys....smart guys picking good players WITHOUT lots of losing would be a plus.....GO Browns!!!! TIME WILL TELL...PS we've used SMART football guys in Past...Davis picked Green, WOW, that worked...give the new guys a chance in draft!!!!

Well, It's funny, the Browns FO you see today, isn't the same one from last year or the year before and so on. So basically, this is the first trip through this whole thing with this group.

I'd like to see how they handle this.

Building through the draft is great.. but when you have changed coaching staffs twice during a good draft picks rookie contract and have no visible plan going forward.. then your good rookies aren't going to re-up with you when it comes time for that second deal.

As much as yesterday sucked, I'm really hoping we stay the course for a few more years..

+1

We all know the proper way to build a consistent contending team is through the draft. That process doesn't begin on the first day of free agency, obviously. So move on.

Like the quote above this comment says, Schwartz was the only one I thought was worth keeping at the price tag he'd command. However, he was probably using our offer as leverage because he had no intention of signing it, so we pulled it. We didn't pull it because we had a brain fart and got confused, something had to have happened to break the good faith offer. Ultimately, it doesn't matter. If he and the others wanted to leave, then they get to leave. Like we all agree, we've got to build through the draft (easier said than done, but you've got to commit to that process and be patient).

We need to hit on a QB soon and build components in the draft. Best case scenario, we are going to get our QB at #2, Josh Gordon stays clean and plays like a Pro Bowler, we use the rest of the draft to find replacements for the guys that left, and we use the compensatory picks in next years draft to jump start the good groundwork we build this season. Breathe in, breathe out. Relax.

I'm not drinking any front office Kool-aid, but I know this is going to take time. We have no other choice. Well, unless we throw the front office out 2 days into the new league year because they couldn't convince 4 players to stay that wanted to leave. Please.

Agreed. I don't believe any of the fa lost wanted to stay here, maybe the exception being TB. I remember last year when we lost Cameron everyone was up in arms and we ended up with an even better player imo. The 4 guys we lost were decent players but they can and will be replaced, maybe with better guys who really want to play and be here. Mack will be the toughest to replace but it can be done. Let's give our FO a chance with the rest of FA and the draft.

Losing Benjamin may not be an issue in the end. The return game is less important than it has been in the past. His value as a receiver was less than the Chargers gave him. The Browns could have paid him the same or more and kept him but that would not guarantee success. Who realistically believes the Browns will be any worse without Benjamin than the 3-13 team we were with him?

Schwartz, I sort of thought they could have made a play for. However, a 5 year deal on a tackle who was not even rated as the best FA tackle? Schwartz left because his agent was able to get another team to give him 5 years. Does having Schwartz on the roster really make a difference on a 3-13 team? What would the Browns have been without Schwartz, a 2-14 team?

The Alex Mack deal is acceptable to me. He opted out because he wanted a longer deal and more money. The Browns have a track record with Mack. 101 starts for the Browns and a 22-79 record with Mack as the starting center. Mack may be a good center. But he has not been a deciding factor in the win/loss ratio of the team. He was turning 30 and the possibility of diminishing returns from his play on the field over the next 5 years is high. He could have stayed with the Browns by not opting in. He wanted out. He was not a difference maker on the field. Let him walk.

Gibson is a little harder to take. He was younger and a safety. However, he is being paid off of 2014 season performance and not on 2016. He was injured two seasons in a row. He under performed. He has had a public bitching match with the Browns. If the Browns would have signed him, I would not have been upset. I am not upset about an under performing, injury prone safety asking to be overpaid on a 5 year deal to play for a 3-13 team. I am okay with him leaving.

With all this said and done. What will the Browns receive in return for the loss of these players? I want to see what happens from here. The Browns have a new regime in place. They have a plan. They will execute that plan. If it is unsuccessful, then bitch all you want about the players leaving. If the team progresses and gets better without them, the Browns dogged a bullet of overpaying for under performing players. The Browns should draft to win in the AFC North first and foremost. Mack has not done so for 7 seasons. Time to move on. Benjamin had one good year out of 4 and the team was 3-13. Time to move on. Gibson was good for 2/3 of one season in Cleveland. He wanted to be paid like a top safety in the NFL. Time to move on. Schwartz improved year to year at RT. He wanted 5 years. He wanted top RT money. The team was 3-13. I would have preferred Schwartz stay but I am not crushed by his loss. A RT does not make or break a team. Let us see who is playing RT for the Browns this season before we get all indignant about the first day of the first season of the new regime.

Voleur

Not trying to sound snappy or rude, as I'm sure it'll come off as such - but whether you're old, new, whatever - you retain the players that have been good for you. I don't understand the "bring in your own guys" talk that people are using to justify doing nothing, if a player can play - shouldn't you strive to keep that?

A direct quote, obviously of nothing but meaningless rhetoric, from our bright minded Sashi Brown:

And so it is important for us to keep our own, I think it says something to the locker room when you reward guys that do it the right way and make sure that they understand that being here in Cleveland we want to build through the draft certainly but we also need to retain our guys when we get to free agency.

... Ha.

I believe that is the point and the focal point of all the frustration: "it's going to take a bit of time....." .

How many decades now????

The fan response to yesterday is not based on One Day ,, It is years and years of yesterdays ..

Dawg I agree with you on this but after reading about these 4 guys I don't think any of them wanted to stay. If they want to leave there isn't much you can do to keep them. If anyone would have asked me from the beginning of last season I would have said Mack will be leaving. He just wanted out.

If they wanted out, then see ya. All they gossip and etc indicated they wanted to stay. Even Mack flew in to talk about an extension before opting out.

I don't think all wanted out, or maybe even none of them really wanted out, but I also wouldn't be shocked if that ended up being true.

LOL

Just a little snarky sounding but I get your drift about keeping those that are good from other regimes.

Except, by all appearances, they did make attempts but were rebuffed. What is it they are supposed to do? Overpay! And believe me, if they overpaid, they'd get reamed for that as well.

So, better to reload on your terms without over spending and move on. You get reamed by the fans either way. SO you may as well do it your way.

But what I was actually speaking of is that this regime isn't the last regime or the one before that or the one before that.

It doesn't matter what the Browns did in 1978 or 1988 or 1998 or 2008. this is a different FO. And even a different owner.

So to say the "Browns" always have done something, doesn't mean that's what this regime is up to.

Give it sometime.. in the end, I may be one that comes down on them as hard as anyone, Just not yet

Well, then you don't go around making statements about how important it is to keep your homegrown talent, and how that it is one of the keys to your plan being successful. Everybody's got a price tag and you can't tell me that it was impossible to sign one or two of these four.

Every morning, I make a first attempt to get outta bed. It usually entails me rolling over and it isn't until the third or fourth attempt where I get moving and outta bed.

Sounds like the Browns made that first attempt, but ignored all the snooze alarms after.

Like pulling the offer from Mitchel, according to recent gossip, because "he didn't sign it immediately and wanted to test the market" is everything but professional in my eyes. Quite childish imo.

We'll see what happens. If they don't strike gold in the draft, the whiplash from the fans going to be lethal.

It's obvious that some do not understand how damaging yesterday was to this franchise.


The Browns first day of free agency was a muddled mess(age) -- Bud Shaw's Sports Spin


By Bud Shaw, cleveland.com
on March 10, 2016 at 8:10 AM, updated March 10, 2016 at 8:11 AM

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Everybody's concerned about the message the Browns sent by not immediately waiving Johnny Manziel?

That's the least of the issues.

The muddled message of much greater concern is the one the Browns sent when they lost four starters -- three of them in their mid-20s -- one after they reportedly told him their previous offer was no longer for the taking.

Remember this?

"It is important that we keep our own," Sashi Brown said at the NFL Scouting Combine. "It sends the right message to the locker room when you reward guys that do it the right way and make sure that they understand that being here in Cleveland we want to build through the draft certainly but we also need to retain our guys when we get to free agency.

"And it's been tough to do that, largely because there's been so much transition. So we talked to them about the continuity moving forward that we're aiming for."

Yep, that message.

These are two-way streets obviously. Alex Mack did some of his best work in Kyle Shanahan's zone blocking scheme. The Browns made him a market offer but he turned it down to join Shanahan in Atlanta.

The loss that made the least sense was Mitchell Schwartz, in part because the Browns thought enough to make him a pre-Scouting Combine offer but then reportedly rescinded it when he wanted to revisit it Wednesday.

Schwartz turns 27 in June and has never missed a game. He'll play for Kansas City now.

What happened to the Browns offer to Mitchell Schwartz?
What happened to the Browns offer to Mitchell Schwartz?
Mitchell Schwartz wanted to return to the Browns, but the club rescinded its offer Wednesday, which was believed to be about $7.5 million a year.

Safety Tashaun Gipson, who signed in Jacksonville, turns 26 in August. Travis Benjamin is 26. Those young legs will be running under Philip Rivers' passes in San Diego.

The Browns not only didn't keep their own, but didn't keep their best young free agents.

Had they kept Schwartz and/or Benjamin or Gipson the first day of free agency would've taken on a much different vibe.

This was either the plan all along and Brown has learned the art of deception-for-no-apparent-reason – one of Ray Farmer's greatest strengths – or the Browns were caught flat-footed.

Again, the Browns created that perception when Brown oddly shared that the team was behind in putting offers together for its own free agents because of yet another coaching search.

Not only did they lose four starters in free agency but any thought that Hue Jackson's reputation among the league's players might entice some top free agents to sign with the Browns didn't come to fruition either.

Everyone in the league – perhaps most of all Browns players – are watching the team's unconventional front office for signs of brilliance, or at least competency.

That's why the Schwartz negotiations jump out to me as the biggest issue.

The Browns sent the message they cared enough about keeping Schwartz but then contradicted themselves by pulling the offer?

There is one upside I guess. The Browns could do nothing again in the second day of free agency and it would have to be considered an improvement over the first day's losses.

Feel better?

Didn't think so.

link

People don't want to be big spenders in free agency. Then days like yesterday happen.

It sucked but it's not damaging in the sense you are trying to portray IMO.

What will be damaging, however, is this FO ability to draft successfully. We've clearly seen that before. This has nothing to do with people complaining about the 'build through the draft' stuff that get repeated. It's just a fact.

A front office that drafts well will consistently produce better football teams. Those teams that consistently do better will keep their FO. Those teams that consistently keep their FO will keep their players.

Time and time again, we see these teams that are spending boat loads of money to sign FA historically don't produce teams that win consistently. Look at the 2011 Eagles (Dream Team) or Miami EVERY Year.

Do you play the FA game? Yes, to an extent. Do you want to keep your own players worth keeping. Yes, of course. I think the latter is the thing most people are upset about but it has little bearing on the success of the FO at this point. The success will hinge on the draft. PERIOD!

These guys clearly did not want to be here any longer. Mack almost left 2 years ago. I wouldn't just trash Sashi and CO., yet. After years of losing, one cannot really blame these players for wanting to leave. They each saw the door out of Cleveland was open and went through. I think it is pretty unfair to jump on the hate bandwagon just yet.

Another Dwyane Bowe, scrub for high dollar signing, would insert me into a very volatile state.

I kind of think this whole mess with MS is kind of like a prom date. We offered what we thought was a very fair deal, they turned it down, ( like you asking a girl to the prom a month before the prom) She turns you down, so she can see if the big bad QB is going to ask her. When he doesn't, she comes back a day before the prom and says Ok I'll go with you. You say, sorry I have found another, offer is off the table. While I don't really agree with that line of thinking, because you do have to barter a little, I can see why. They felt like MS just wanted the money and wasn't really interested in staying here to help build a winner. Like I said, I don't really see it that way but I do understand it.

You cannot build through the Draft if you cannot find a way to retain the few quality guys you drafted. It's about numbers.... you simply cannot Draft enough quality constantly to replace lost talent because you will never hit on all of your draft picks. You will always be losing more talent than you suucceed at bringing in via the Draft. At the very best, you can only tread water - poorly.

If you also cannot attract quality Free Agents to boot, you're completely screwed. You have nothing.

It's not being purchased by a lot of the players or by others in the organization right now.

Why do people care about Johnny not being cut yet? Do they honestly think he'll ever be joining our team again as a teammate? I sure as heck hope it's not because they are worried about what others think of the Browns because that damage has been done.

New regime?

I could have sworn that Haslam and Sashi were already here? The moves the "new regime" is making look almost exactly the same as the moves the "old regime" made.

Wonder why?

I'm waiting to hear how some "shameful bozo" is making that up, even though it is a quote.

hey Bud ..

glad to hear your doing good my friend ...

I wonder how "optimistic" joe Thomas feels after yesterday? ... I know he was fired up over the Jackson signing ... I wonder how he feels now ... *L* ....

I wonder if he had an opt out if he'd take it now ... bet the odds are higher now than they were yesterday ...

Damn.