why is it that every time i try to explain how i feel about race relations, people always gotta act like my issues are deeper than that?
it was bad enough that Arch, Haus, and a couple other people tried that nonsense.
but now you, too?
do you guys have any idea how insulting it is that when i bring up these issues, you guys act like i have deeper issues, that it can't possibly be just about how i feel with regards to race relations?
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
However, you may want to consider that when you make qualifying statements about race, that certain whites [like me] might be offended.
I read a lot of stuff on here. I can't guarantee, but I am confident that very few people on this board does more in "real life" to help members of a different race than I do. Heck, I feel very confident that I do more to help the black community than almost..if not every...black person on here. And when I read about how racists whites are.........it rubs me the wrong way.
You can't fight hate w/hate. MLK should have taught you that.
i swear sometimes it's like you guys purposely ignore what i'm saying.
if you want to continue thinking i'm hateful toward a race, then we have nothing else to discuss.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
I got something for you. Give me a sec, once you see this, you'll ha a better understanding of what I'm talking about.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
why is it that every time i try to explain how i feel about race relations, people always gotta act like my issues are deeper than that?
it was bad enough that Arch, Haus, and a couple other people tried that nonsense.
but now you, too?
do you guys have any idea how insulting it is that when i bring up these issues, you guys act like i have deeper issues, that it can't possibly be just about how i feel with regards to race relations?
Ah shaddap! Everyone of us knows you have problems from the war and all of us are concerned when you are feeling stuff. Sometimes we get too concerned and step on your sorry arse.
It is only because we appreciate what you did for our Nation and the fact we have known you for so many years on these Boards that we are concerned.
We are all part of this strange little family and it all started with our common love of one of the worst teams in football. Dysfunctional family? Oh yea! But caring.
The point that I am making here is I have seen through my 60 years of life that most things begin and end with the Black Race in this Country.
Interesting observation, but your talking point is weakly presented- and predicated upon the assumption that all of us readers know only as much (or perhaps less) than you. Such is not the case here, 40... and I'm willing to address your assertions, point by point.
Growing up in America at exactly the same time as you, I was always conditioned (by the prevailing 'Mainstream Media') to believe that life began and ended with looking like Barbie and Ken.
Imagine that for a moment, if you will.
At least that's how it was presented to me (and every other American citizen) during my 'Wonder Years.'
In 1962, 'TV's America' was blonde, blue-eyed, and looked a LOT like The Enemy we defeated just 1.5 decades earlier. TV's images (both fictional and non-fictional) did NOT look like Young Clemmy or his family. And Young Clemmy was (by nature), incurably inquisitive. So he began asking his elders about such things. He asked his Mom and His Dad. He asked his aunts and uncles. On Thanksgiving day, in 1967 (at the age of 11), he even asked his Great Uncle Giles Johnson (Baptist minister) about his experiences marching with Martin Luther King across the Edmund Pettus Bridge, just 2+ years earlier.
Young Clemmy's American History Lesson began in earnest on that day.
Young 11-year-old Clemmy's Thanksgiving Day Dinner became an 8-hour education in American History and Sociopolitics. An education that was enjoined by almost every adult in that house- from the time he asked that innocent question, until his parents hauled him and his baby sister home. Three generations of Black Americans took Young Clemmy to school that day... and the beloved, entrusted adults in his life began educating him about the country he was being raised in. On the way home, my babysis Laurel passed out from fatigue and 'Adult-talk.' I relentlessly pressed My Parents the entire 1.5 hour trip home from Toledo to Lima. To their credit, they never dodged a single question, and 'talked adult' with me the entire ride home. (My Folks were "The S#!t" when it came to child-rearing, yo.)
Something tells me that 'Young 40's' Thanksgiving Day conversations were quite different, on that same day in 1967.
Two different American families, celebrating the same National Holiday, in two completely different ways.... on the same continent, in the same nation, with two separate, different (and unequal) pasts. One family celebrated as they did, because they could. The other family celebrated as they did, because they had to.
And folks discount my observations that we've experienced 'different and separate' Americas?
Please.
When 'Young Clemmy' became old enough to watch the Huntley/Brinkley Report on NBC, he saw Hippies smoking dope and attending megarock concerts at the same time he saw people who looked like his fellow church parishioners being washed down city streets with fire hoses and attacked by uniformed police officers, accompanied by German Shepherds. Today,'Old Clemmy' sees his fellow church parishoners and folks who look like him confronted by MRAPS and police officers in military-grade body armor. And still, with the ever-present trained German Shepherds.
Black Americans are still fighting to be heard, to be seen, to be considered in a country that ironically proposes that "all men are created equal." The only thing that has changed in 50 years is the technology available to suppress those who would exercise their 1st amendment rights.
The people and motivations behind such scenes haven't changed one whit in over a half-century of American History.
Did American Blacks change that much in 40 years? Or did Our American Response change? Substitute fire hoses for 'sound canons' atop MRAP's, and today looks startlingly (and distressingly) similar to what My Parents saw when they were in their teens and 20's. As a society, we're supposed to have evolved MUCH farther than this, in a half century. America's supposed to be better than this by now.
Quote:
"Our" music, how "we" dress, the shoes "we" wear, the things we say...
(Quotation marks edited in for satirical irony- and a sense of historical perspective...)
...all co-opted from an autonomous, SEPARATED Black American Culture that created its own look, sound, & language- because of a lack of true inclusion into the Eurocentric American mainstream. Co-opted, because it was more clever, more colorful, and more socially/politically relevant- which made it: more marketable.
[Insert sound clip here: The O'Jays: 'For The Love of Money': "MunnyMunnyMunnyMunny.... Muuuuunay!"]
Elitist White Money has always taken what it wants from America. Duke Ellington and Count Basie saw their big band efforts stolen, watered-down, and exploited by the Big Money Machine who inserted Benny Goodman and The Dorsey Brothers in their place. Charlie (Bird) Parker and Dizzy Gillespie pioneered the Jazz form known as "BeBop" to further separate 'Black American Art Music' from the encroachment of White profiteers and 'corporate carpetbaggers.' And still, they came after Black America's innovations. Two more generations of Euro-Americans co-opted an ;outside the maintream artform, and adopted it as their own. In the 50's/60's, every single record store in America had a sequestered 'Race Music' section in their stacks. When those sections began selling out to both Black & White Americans, Elitist White Money swooped in- and took over. They've been doing the same ever since. Elvis Presley, The Rolling Stones, Eric Clapton, Led Zeppelin- ALL of them attribute their styles to men like Howlin' Wolf, James Johnson, and BB King.
Don't take my word for it. Do a quick Google research of ANY of these mega-bands, and their own words will tell you who influenced their musical motivations.
The only difference between now and when your parents were relevant: today, it's folks like Kendrick Lamar, Beyonce, and P-Did, instead of Lawrence Welk, Glenn Miller, and The Dorsey Brothers. The only difference between 1964/1966 and 2016 is simple: America's demographics have drastically changed in your lifespan. The White Power Brokers have adapted, to make their stacks of money... while you've been left behind, hating everything you now see.
Today's celebrities are now 'varying shades of Brown,' instead of 'variations of white,' -which is only natural, considering America's ever-evolving demographic. But still, the movers and shakers at the top are about as White as can be.
Regarding the 70-year-old "Pop Music Revolutions':
Without Brown Americans like James Johnson, Howlin' Wolf and Muddy Waters, there is no 50's Rock & Roll. No Bill Haley and the Comets. No Elvis Presley. No Rolling Stones. No Eric Clapton. No Led Zeppelin. Don't take my word for it- they're on record as freely admitting it- in decades worth of interviews.
Even John Travolta's 70's fashion statement in "Saturday Night Fever" was White America's direct rip-off of early 70's-era 'Black Urban Pimp fashion.' The entire 1970's/80's 10-year 'Disco Era' was simply a watered-down rip of the Funk Music Movement that had been enjoyed by American Blacks since 1966. (Research: James Brown)
In many, many ways, the 'American Social Melting Pot' is a simply a euphemism for 'appropriation.' The difference in outlook from you to me is whether you come from a culture of 'makers'... or a culture of 'takers.'
Yes. I said it. And I have 200+ years of facts and figures to back it up. Here's a particularly clumsy and insulting example of what I describe:
Al Jolson. "Blackface Entertainment for White Audiences."
YOUR culture owns this. There is no escaping what you did, and what your grandparents enjoyed. There is no escaping the legacy that they handed down to you, nor is there any escaping what you 'like' and 'dislike' as modern entertainment moves on.
The best stuff Your People ever produced in the 20th century was a cheap bastardization of the least of what My People ever did.
As a Black American, I'm still willing to absolve you of this fkked-up legacy, if you'll just make a clean break from it- in the way you live, in the way you express yourselves, and in the way your live your lives in 21st c America. As of yet, you haven't done that... so expect folks like me to continually hold your feet to the fire. We won't go away any more than you will. You're stuck with us, because we're already here. And we're here, because your forebrears brought us here- against our wishes. In chains.
And... Shoes, speak, et al... The cleverest thing you've come up with in the past 30 years is 'ValleySpeak.' And it faded within 5 years of inception. Truth: The best original offering you could devise came from teenaged 'Mean Girls' in the heartland of Liberal California.
So please understand why usually sedate,'civilized' folks like Clemdawg occasionally rise up- and remind you how important (and essential) it is to know your role in all of this... and why you need to 'stay in your lane.'
I don't suffer fools gladly... And 40 is too smart to play the role of 'Clemmy's Fool,' aren't you?
Think about my potential response, before you post another one of your 'off the cuff' entries, because:
I may not post every single day... but I never take a day off. ...and I will call you out on stuff like this every single time.
---------------
I'll never, EVER call you a racist.... but I will ALWAYS show you another way of seeing things when it's called for. Because I can... and because you should be educated beyond your current mindset.
As American Citizens, we owe each other this common courtesy. It makes our nation stronger, because we care enough to make the effort.
I remembered seeing this several years ago and it has stuck with me.
"It is possible for two people to be looking at the same thing and interpret it differently. And both could be right! Do you realize what that means? It taught me that there are two sides to every story. That to be right doesn’t mean the other person has to be wrong. And once you know that, it’s possible to see things from the other person’s point of view. Which leads to understanding, empathy, and compassion."
"The Buddha twice uses the simile of blind men led astray. In the Canki Sutta he describes a row of blind men holding on to each other as an example of those who follow an old text that has passed down from generation to generation.[6] In the Udana (68–69)[7] he uses the elephant parable to describe sectarian quarrels. A king has the blind men of the capital brought to the palace, where an elephant is brought in and they are asked to describe it.
When the blind men had each felt a part of the elephant, the king went to each of them and said to each: 'Well, blind man, have you seen the elephant? Tell me, what sort of thing is an elephant?'
The men assert the elephant is either like a pot (the blind man who felt the elephant's head), a winnowing basket (ear), a plowshare (tusk), a plow (trunk), a granary (body), a pillar (foot), a mortar (back), a pestle (tail) or a brush (tip of the tail).
The men cannot agree with one another and come to blows over the question of what it is like and their dispute delights the king. The Buddha ends the story by comparing the blind men to preachers and scholars who are blind and ignorant and hold to their own views: "Just so are these preachers and scholars holding various views blind and unseeing.... In their ignorance they are by nature quarrelsome, wrangling, and disputatious, each maintaining reality is thus and thus." The Buddha then speaks the following verse:
O how they cling and wrangle, some who claim For preacher and monk the honored name! For, quarreling, each to his view they cling. Such folk see only one side of a thing.[8]"
YOUR culture owns this. There is no escaping what you did, and what your grandparents enjoyed. There is no escaping the legacy that they handed down to you, nor is there any escaping what you 'like' and 'dislike' as modern entertainment moves on.
This is where the argument breaks down. You see, I don't own that, nor does my culture. Did white people perform like this at one time? Yes. Did I give it my personal seal of approval? No. That happened way before my time.
I grew up in an enlisted Navy family. In my upbringing, the only thing that separated people was their rank in the military. I lived on isolated bases until I was 10, so I never even realized there was a civilian population. Black or white never mattered, officer or enlisted was what mattered. For you to tell me that my 'culture owns this' is a misrepresentation of my upbringing.
One of my great grandfathers was a klansman. He raised his son, my grandfather, to be one too. My grandfather had his life saved in WWII by a black man, who carried him to an aid station. That black man was also shot at that time. My grandfather changed his mind about people that day. A few years later he threw his father out of his house and cut him off from contact for racial slurs. He actually had a bigger problem with the Japanese than he ever did with blacks, as he was part of the liberation of a couple Japanese POW camps.
My dad was supportive of MLK Jr and the marches. I was raised to see people as people. I actually think one of the problems with race relations in this country is the constant blaming of people like me for past racial problems. I had nothing to do with it, nor do I practice those racial stereotypes now. People are people, and they should treat people they way they want to be treated.
Once again, my family had nothing to do with slavery, segregation, or any of the other problems. The paternal side of my family moved here in 1848 from Germany, and lived in the Dayton area. Some of them fought for the Union. My maternal grandfather removed racism from his home when his daughters were young, and they grew up without it. Both my parents were supported of MLK Jrs cause. Please stop lumping me in with racists, as you're constant accusations and assertions that my culture caused this is wrong That culture mostly disappeared years ago and a more tolerant culture replaced it. I grew up with that one.
I assume nothing about the readers of my posts. I say what I say from my POV. How else would you have me speak? From your point of view?
I must not be very good at communicating my views on Racial issues because I agree with much of what you say and thought I said pretty much the same things.
I basically said the Black Race has always lead our Society in who we are and what we like. Yea, Whites ripped off everything Black but I think it had less to do with Racism and more to do with profitability. Elvis was one of us so we bought his records, underlying Racism perhaps, comfort level with something you can relate to, definitely.
As far as Barbie and Ken, do you think it had more to do with Racism or the fact that you could sell more White toys because Whites are the majority of the buyers?
I often think a lot of these things are considered by Blacks to be some kind of attack by Whites when it is more a case of The majority seeking comfort levels within their own tribe and business wanting to sell the most product they can sell.
We grew up with everything being blond hair, blue eyed because the vast majority of America WAS blond haired, blue eyed!
Growing up as a minority has to be very difficult indeed, something I will never completely grasp.
I have a Black and a White friend who live and travel in China and Japan. They both describe the polite but Racist attitudes they face and how they are respected for their careers but don't you even think of talking to my daughter.
It is never my intent to hurt but it seems that is what I do on these issues of Racism. It is best I finally, finally, find the strength to butt out and bite my tongue on the subject.
this would've got 20 pages if it was some kids in the suburbs, though.
Isn't wilkinsburg a suburb of Pittsburgh?
If your thinking this has something to do with Race, for me at least, it doesn't, I still don't know if those killed were white or black or if the shooters where white or black
I just didn't see the thread until today.
Why was that house considered a safe place?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
The point that I am making here is I have seen through my 60 years of life that most things begin and end with the Black Race in this Country.
Interesting observation, but your talking point is weakly presented- and predicated upon the assumption that all of us readers know only as much (or perhaps less) than you. Such is not the case here, 40... and I'm willing to address your assertions, point by point.
Growing up in America at exactly the same time as you, I was always conditioned (by the prevailing 'Mainstream Media') to believe that life began and ended with looking like Barbie and Ken.
Imagine that for a moment, if you will.
At least that's how it was presented to me (and every other American citizen) during my 'Wonder Years.'
In 1962, 'TV's America' was blonde, blue-eyed, and looked a LOT like The Enemy we defeated just 1.5 decades earlier. TV's images (both fictional and non-fictional) did NOT look like Young Clemmy or his family. And Young Clemmy was (by nature), incurably inquisitive. So he began asking his elders about such things. He asked his Mom and His Dad. He asked his aunts and uncles. On Thanksgiving day, in 1967 (at the age of 11), he even asked his Great Uncle Giles Johnson (Baptist minister) about his experiences marching with Martin Luther King across the Edmund Pettus Bridge, just 2+ years earlier.
Young Clemmy's American History Lesson began in earnest on that day.
Young 11-year-old Clemmy's Thanksgiving Day Dinner became an 8-hour education in American History and Sociopolitics. An education that was enjoined by almost every adult in that house- from the time he asked that innocent question, until his parents hauled him and his baby sister home. Three generations of Black Americans took Young Clemmy to school that day... and the beloved, entrusted adults in his life began educating him about the country he was being raised in. On the way home, my babysis Laurel passed out from fatigue and 'Adult-talk.' I relentlessly pressed My Parents the entire 1.5 hour trip home from Toledo to Lima. To their credit, they never dodged a single question, and 'talked adult' with me the entire ride home. (My Folks were "The S#!t" when it came to child-rearing, yo.)
Something tells me that 'Young 40's' Thanksgiving Day conversations were quite different, on that same day in 1967.
Two different American families, celebrating the same National Holiday, in two completely different ways.... on the same continent, in the same nation, with two separate, different (and unequal) pasts. One family celebrated as they did, because they could. The other family celebrated as they did, because they had to.
And folks discount my observations that we've experienced 'different and separate' Americas?
Please.
When 'Young Clemmy' became old enough to watch the Huntley/Brinkley Report on NBC, he saw Hippies smoking dope and attending megarock concerts at the same time he saw people who looked like his fellow church parishioners being washed down city streets with fire hoses and attacked by uniformed police officers, accompanied by German Shepherds. Today,'Old Clemmy' sees his fellow church parishoners and folks who look like him confronted by MRAPS and police officers in military-grade body armor. And still, with the ever-present trained German Shepherds.
Black Americans are still fighting to be heard, to be seen, to be considered in a country that ironically proposes that "all men are created equal." The only thing that has changed in 50 years is the technology available to suppress those who would exercise their 1st amendment rights.
The people and motivations behind such scenes haven't changed one whit in over a half-century of American History.
Did American Blacks change that much in 40 years? Or did Our American Response change? Substitute fire hoses for 'sound canons' atop MRAP's, and today looks startlingly (and distressingly) similar to what My Parents saw when they were in their teens and 20's. As a society, we're supposed to have evolved MUCH farther than this, in a half century. America's supposed to be better than this by now.
Quote:
"Our" music, how "we" dress, the shoes "we" wear, the things we say...
(Quotation marks edited in for satirical irony- and a sense of historical perspective...)
...all co-opted from an autonomous, SEPARATED Black American Culture that created its own look, sound, & language- because of a lack of true inclusion into the Eurocentric American mainstream. Co-opted, because it was more clever, more colorful, and more socially/politically relevant- which made it: more marketable.
[Insert sound clip here: The O'Jays: 'For The Love of Money': "MunnyMunnyMunnyMunny.... Muuuuunay!"]
Elitist White Money has always taken what it wants from America. Duke Ellington and Count Basie saw their big band efforts stolen, watered-down, and exploited by the Big Money Machine who inserted Benny Goodman and The Dorsey Brothers in their place. Charlie (Bird) Parker and Dizzy Gillespie pioneered the Jazz form known as "BeBop" to further separate 'Black American Art Music' from the encroachment of White profiteers and 'corporate carpetbaggers.' And still, they came after Black America's innovations. Two more generations of Euro-Americans co-opted an ;outside the maintream artform, and adopted it as their own. In the 50's/60's, every single record store in America had a sequestered 'Race Music' section in their stacks. When those sections began selling out to both Black & White Americans, Elitist White Money swooped in- and took over. They've been doing the same ever since. Elvis Presley, The Rolling Stones, Eric Clapton, Led Zeppelin- ALL of them attribute their styles to men like Howlin' Wolf, James Johnson, and BB King.
Don't take my word for it. Do a quick Google research of ANY of these mega-bands, and their own words will tell you who influenced their musical motivations.
The only difference between now and when your parents were relevant: today, it's folks like Kendrick Lamar, Beyonce, and P-Did, instead of Lawrence Welk, Glenn Miller, and The Dorsey Brothers. The only difference between 1964/1966 and 2016 is simple: America's demographics have drastically changed in your lifespan. The White Power Brokers have adapted, to make their stacks of money... while you've been left behind, hating everything you now see.
Today's celebrities are now 'varying shades of Brown,' instead of 'variations of white,' -which is only natural, considering America's ever-evolving demographic. But still, the movers and shakers at the top are about as White as can be.
Regarding the 70-year-old "Pop Music Revolutions':
Without Brown Americans like James Johnson, Howlin' Wolf and Muddy Waters, there is no 50's Rock & Roll. No Bill Haley and the Comets. No Elvis Presley. No Rolling Stones. No Eric Clapton. No Led Zeppelin. Don't take my word for it- they're on record as freely admitting it- in decades worth of interviews.
Even John Travolta's 70's fashion statement in "Saturday Night Fever" was White America's direct rip-off of early 70's-era 'Black Urban Pimp fashion.' The entire 1970's/80's 10-year 'Disco Era' was simply a watered-down rip of the Funk Music Movement that had been enjoyed by American Blacks since 1966. (Research: James Brown)
In many, many ways, the 'American Social Melting Pot' is a simply a euphemism for 'appropriation.' The difference in outlook from you to me is whether you come from a culture of 'makers'... or a culture of 'takers.'
Yes. I said it. And I have 200+ years of facts and figures to back it up. Here's a particularly clumsy and insulting example of what I describe:
Al Jolson. "Blackface Entertainment for White Audiences."
YOUR culture owns this. There is no escaping what you did, and what your grandparents enjoyed. There is no escaping the legacy that they handed down to you, nor is there any escaping what you 'like' and 'dislike' as modern entertainment moves on.
The best stuff Your People ever produced in the 20th century was a cheap bastardization of the least of what My People ever did.
As a Black American, I'm still willing to absolve you of this fkked-up legacy, if you'll just make a clean break from it- in the way you live, in the way you express yourselves, and in the way your live your lives in 21st c America. As of yet, you haven't done that... so expect folks like me to continually hold your feet to the fire. We won't go away any more than you will. You're stuck with us, because we're already here. And we're here, because your forebrears brought us here- against our wishes. In chains.
And... Shoes, speak, et al... The cleverest thing you've come up with in the past 30 years is 'ValleySpeak.' And it faded within 5 years of inception. Truth: The best original offering you could devise came from teenaged 'Mean Girls' in the heartland of Liberal California.
So please understand why usually sedate,'civilized' folks like Clemdawg occasionally rise up- and remind you how important (and essential) it is to know your role in all of this... and why you need to 'stay in your lane.'
I don't suffer fools gladly... And 40 is too smart to play the role of 'Clemmy's Fool,' aren't you?
Think about my potential response, before you post another one of your 'off the cuff' entries, because:
I may not post every single day... but I never take a day off. ...and I will call you out on stuff like this every single time.
---------------
I'll never, EVER call you a racist.... but I will ALWAYS show you another way of seeing things when it's called for. Because I can... and because you should be educated beyond your current mindset.
As American Citizens, we owe each other this common courtesy. It makes our nation stronger, because we care enough to make the effort.
.02, Clemdawg.
Clemdawg, first I want to say that your post was quite interesting and informative as well as well written. However, I have highlighted some things above that I would like further clarification on.
The first thing I wish to have clarification on is the green highlighted statement. Can you explain to me how one family celebrated Thanksgiving because they could while the other family celebrated it because they had too? I guess I don't understand how you can state that someone had to celebrate a holiday in the United States. I just want to understand your thought process.
Second is the orange highlighted area. I am not sure what an MRAP is so I would like to know that if you could explain as I am ignorant to this acronym. I would also like to know in what context that this was happening to people who looked like you (I take it you mean black people?). Were those people rioting or peacefully protesting or something altogether different? Also, I'm not sure where you live so I am not sure if you are talking about the LA riots or if you are talking about the fire hose treatment in a location other than LA. However, those same fire hoses and MRAPs (whatever that is) were directed at people of other ethnic backgrounds because there are almost always people of differing ethnic backgrounds involved although admittedly not in the same strength as blacks, which is to be expected as the majority of protester/rioters were black.
If as in the LA riots people were being violent and looting I don't care if they are black, white, orange, purple, or green they gave up their rights to kid glove treatment the minute they started that. Mr. King did more for equal rights not just for blacks, but for everyone then any of the rioting or looting ever did. Those actions just make other people fearful and judgmental as well as making them generalize an ethnic group based off of the actions of a few.
I love all people because of the differences they bring to the table, but that was the way I was raised. As a young boy in the late 60's early 70's my mother became very ill and was hospitalized. A black family, the Picken's, that lived across the street took me into their home and cared for me like one of their own for more than 6 months while my mom was sick. There son, David, was a brother to me and I learned from them that not everyone behaves the same or is raised the same. In the statement marked in blue highlights you talk about two different and separate Americas.
I think you are a little off on this because I think that there are many different and separate Americas based on where you were raised and how you were raised. When I stayed with the Picken's family I lived in town (small town of Marion, Ohio) and where we lived there was a pretty evenly split demographic between blacks and whites. However, move forward a few years and we moved about 10 miles from town and I lived where there were no blacks and the school district I went to had no blacks, but there were still many more prejudices there between the rich people and the poor (I was in the latter group). Luckily for me there was sports and that knocked down some of those barriers. So I think to say that there are only two different and separate Americas is a little off.
The next thing I want to talk about is highlighted in red. Why do you think that we as white people have to be absolved by black people for a legacy that we did not create or have not tried to adhere too? Although whites brought blacks to the Americas as slaves, it was the blacks own people that sold their brethren into slavery. I'm not excusing what whites did to blacks and enslaving them, but blacks had a hand in this egregious action. However, regardless of whose at fault for this, there is plenty to spread around, the generations of today, including mine, have nothing to be absolved of.
Lastly, the part highlighted in purple talks about what our people produced in the 20th century. In this statement are you talking about music alone or anything in general? If you are talking about music then I would not necessarily disagree with you because I think that blacks have had a wonderful influence in this art. They have also had a negative influence on this art as well, but I tend to look at the good and just not pay too much attention to the bad. However, if you are talking about producing anything in general then I think you are kidding or lying to yourself and should rethink you statement.
I want to finish by saying that just by looking at how differently we perceive things on this forum is just a small dichotomy of a much larger division in our country. If we cannot embrace our differences on such a small scale it is going to be mighty tough work for it to be accomplished on a much larger scale. It is not easy for everyone to "just get along" to coin the phrase as people may believe, but if we can step into another's shoes we may get a glimpse of how to accomplish it.
this would've got 20 pages if it was some kids in the suburbs, though.
My guess is that everybody knows it will go one of two directions.. race of shooter and victims or... gun control.
And it is my most sincere hope, that people are sick and tired of arguing both. If we want to make this thread 8 pages, just go copy the last one because they all end up the same.
i made a second video as well. but i explained my issues.
i dont really care if anybody watches it or not, same goes for when i upload part 2, but now that i've explained verbally the situation, nobody can claim ignorance or try to deflect to mental health problems with regards to race anymore.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
i made a second video as well. but i explained my issues.
i dont really care if anybody watches it or not, same goes for when i upload part 2, but now that i've explained verbally the situation, nobody can claim ignorance or try to deflect to mental health problems with regards to race anymore.
Swish, great video. I understand what you are saying. White people, me included, do not always understand the black perspective on issues. We also seem to throw a lot of stones while living in the proverbial glass house. I believe that a lot of people, not just blacks and whites, have prejudices and don't see it because of the culture they were raised in or the places that they live or lived.
You seem like a highly intelligent person with a willingness to embrace your community in order to try to lift it and yourself up. I personally don't see color very often because I try to measure a person by who they are and what they stand for regardless of the color of their skin. Thanks for the video. I'm going to watch the other one. God Bless and keep being passionate.
Thanks for watching man. I'm glad you understood my intent, and where i was coming from.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
When you first came here I thought you were just a race baiting Okie hater. I'm a proud Okie and my reaction was 'screw this clown'. Overtime and reading some of your responses I've come to like and respect you, even if I don't agree with some of your positions. You get a little hot-headed and let your emotions get the best of you at times but I feel you always stay true to your convictions. Some folks just troll this site for reactions, you are certainly not one of those. Also in direct response to your first vid as I'm working and don't have time to watch both, if someone says you hurt their feelings. You didn't hurt anything, those are their feelings and you're not responsible for them. If they have hurt feelings they need to check their emotions at the door.
Now for a more typical Tulsa reply...
Dude, I just got bronies out of my head when you come along talking about puppy dogs and rainbows. Stop it!
That was cool. It makes me realize why I have difficulty with some on these Boards because face to face is so much better than reading the typed word. I finally get you.
Thanks man. i already know i'm probably the worst on the board when it comes to explaining things in ways that doesn't put people in an instant defensive position, so when we get into in depth issues like this one, i felt the need to make a video that way people understood, even if they don't agree, where i was coming from.
and with the bronies, bruh i swear i don't do the dress up things...
i just know all the names, haha. my girls watch it none stop. even when i'm not watching it, the tv is so loud, i know the story lines.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
thanks bro. sometimes it's just easier to explain on video than it is typing.
i need to work on explaining on post a lot better.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
it's funny cause i enjoy the quotes more than the actual movies.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
I liked the videos. They deeply touched me. Watched them this morning and they have stayed w/me all day. I'm still processing the s#!+ bro.
Kinda depressed me. Kinda made me go philosophical. Kinda made me feel there is no hope for my dream. Kinda helped me understand that I will never understand. Kinda made me feel that folks don't understand me. Kinda made me feel that even though I have a great deal of knowledge, I still don't squat.
I'll get back to you later. Still processing. I just didn't want you to think that I was blowing you off.
i've learned that complete understanding is a pipe dream. it won't happen. you'll never fully understand what it's like to be black, i won't fully understand what it's like to be white.
at the end of the day, the whole idea being uniting race relations is making opportunities equal.
i'm not talking about sending kids to private schools, or forcing people to allow blacks into ivy league joints.
i'm talking public schools having about the same level of educational standards. i'm talking about the justice system treating everybody the same, regardless of skin tone or financial ability to pay for lawyers.
that's it man. let people rise or fall based off their own credentials, or lack thereof. don't let people fall because of situations that aren't in anybody's control.
you didn't ask to be born white. i didn't ask to be born black. there's no reason why at a base level, i still have to start life in the negative while you start at zero.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
i've learned that complete understanding is a pipe dream. it won't happen. you'll never fully understand what it's like to be black, i won't fully understand what it's like to be white.
Correct, we can only relate to things through the lens of our own life experiences. I will never know exactly what it feels like to be anybody but me.... and the less like me you are, the less I will understand your experiences.
How is it that two people will go through same experience, but interpret it so differently?
I'm sure that a trained psychologist would have a much more satisfying answer, but since I find the question fascinating I'll chime in anyway.
It's actually fairly simple, as I see it. We interpret a current sequence of events in the context of past events. Meaning that we bring our personal history to every new situation. It's this personal history that helps us create meaning for ourselves. Since no two people can have identical life experiences (even identical twins can't have completely identical life experiences), no two people will have the same personal history. As a result, their basis for creating meaning will differ.
Take an overly simple example: two people fall off a boat into the water. On the face of it, that's two people going through the same experience, right? But what if one of them doesn't know how to swim? To that person, it will be recorded as "the time I almost drowned," while to the other person it might be "that time I fell off a boat and had to swim back to shore." For every massive difference between them like that, there are many more smaller differences, each of which influences how an experience is recorded. Even emotional states influence interpretation.
Basically, there's no way for two individuals to be identical enough to interpret the same sequence of events in the the same way. The differences may be small or they may be huge, but they will necessarily exist.
Yep. It's like giving 2 people $50,000. One person has 6 kids, just lost his job, and is at risk of losing his home.
The other is Donald Trump.
To whom does that money mean the most?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
this would've got 20 pages if it was some kids in the suburbs, though.
Isn't wilkinsburg a suburb of Pittsburgh?
If your thinking this has something to do with Race, for me at least, it doesn't, I still don't know if those killed were white or black or if the shooters where white or black
I just didn't see the thread until today.
Why was that house considered a safe place?
It is outside Pittsburgh off of 376 on the way down by Kennywood park. For those that are interested, the Pittsburgh Post Gazette online has a bunch of articles about this event.
Police: 49 shots were fired, most from AK-47; ATF offering $20,000 reward March 11, 2016 12:40 AM
Andrew Rush/Post-Gazette
Mellyora Walker, the sister of victims of the Wilkinsburg shooting, speaks to a reporter at the Lighthouse Church in Mount Oliver on Thursday.
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By Dan Majors and Molly Born / Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
The victims of Wednesday night’s horrific shooting at a family cookout in Wilkinsburg never had a chance.
Investigators said Thursday that two shooters — one armed with a .40-caliber handgun and the other with an assault-style rifle — staked out angles behind a pair of backyard fences just before 11 p.m. and mercilessly gunned down their targets, killing six, including an unborn child, and wounding three.
Children inside the house at 1304 Franklin Ave. were not injured.
“[The victims] were herded there on the porch. It was just horrible,” said Chris Taylor, assistant special agent in charge of the Philadelphia Field Division of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, which is assisting with the investigation.
Clockwise from top left, Jerry Shelton, Brittany Powell, Tina Shelton, and Chanetta Powell. (Facebook)
The shooters approached the house from Hazel Way, an alley behind the home. The shooter in the alley fired a handgun at the group in the backyard, sending the victims running toward the house for cover. The second shooter, positioned at a fence near the back door and armed with the rifle, sprayed them as they went up the porch steps.
“They funneled them onto the porch and then just lit them up,” Agent Taylor said. “It was like a military [operation], like when I was in the Marines. That’s totally what it looked like. They were funneling them. It made them an easy target. Then once the first guy died, he blocked the door and the girls were stuck on the porch and buh-buh-buh-buh, they’re all down there behind him. Thank God the kids were all right.”
The Allegheny County Medical Examiner’s office identified the victims as siblings Jerry Michael Shelton, 35, Brittany Powell, 27, and Chanetta Powell, 25, and their cousins Tina Shelton, 37, and Shada Mahone, 26. Chanetta Powell was eight months’ pregnant.
Two men were in critical condition at UPMC Mercy, though authorities reported some improvement in their conditions. Another woman was treated and released.
Allegheny County homicide Lt. Andrew Schurman said 49 shots were fired, 31 from an AK-47 and 18 from the handgun.
Agent Taylor said the use of the assault rifle at such close range meant some of the shots passed through one victim and into another. One woman had 50 bullet holes in her body, counting entry and exit wounds, he said.
“I’m getting shot with everything you’re getting shot with,” he said, describing the gruesome scene. “When you’re only 5, 6 feet away, the bullets are going through three people, they were so close. That’s why law enforcement [officers carry] ammo that stops in people. We don’t want to shoot somebody and it goes through people.
“But this was like what the Soviet army used to use. This was an AK-47 or something similar to that, based on the shot pattern. ... This is a common rifle you see at gun shows, with the banana clip that bends forward. It’s cheap. You can buy it anywhere.”
Allegheny County police Superintendent Charles Moffatt said police had not recovered the weapons and had “no firm suspects.”
“We have some names that we’re working on, but we don’t want to put that out there because we want to get ahold of the people that we’re looking for without them knowing that we’re looking for them,” he said. “We don’t have enough at this time to make any arrests. We don’t have enough to even mandate that we pull somebody in.”
He added that the shooters, who fled on foot, “knew right where they were going, right what they were doing.”
The ATF is offering a $20,000 reward for information leading to the arrest and conviction of those involved. Anyone with information is asked to call 1-800-ATF-GUNS (283-4867).
Local police were also being assisted by the FBI and the Drug Enforcement Administration in investigating what Allegheny County District Attorney Stephen A. Zappala Jr. called a “planned, calculated and brutal” shooting.
“We haven’t seen something like this for quite some time — if we’ve ever seen this type of planning in terms of planning for taking life,” said Mr. Zappala, who visited the scene Thursday morning. “We think one, maybe two people were targeted. The rest of the people would be fairly characterized as innocent. This was an ambush.”
Wilkinsburg police Chief Ophelia Coleman, who joined county Executive Rich Fitzgerald and county police at a Thursday afternoon news conference, said there had been no reports of previous trouble at the Franklin Avenue address.
PG map: Wilkinsburg shooting (Click image for larger version)
“It’s a pretty quiet street,” she somberly said, promising that the neighborhood would see “beefed-up” patrols for the immediate future. ”We’ve reached out to other communities to assist us in any way they can.”
Jessica Shelton, 50, said during a news conference Thursday at the Lighthouse church in Mount Oliver that she was the mother of Jerry Michael Shelton, and Brittany and Chanetta Powell. She said the other two victims were her nieces.
Ms. Shelton said the family decided to have a cookout Wednesday night because the weather was so pleasant. They gathered at the three-bedroom house that Brittany Powell moved into in September and played dominoes, took pictures, drank a few beers and let the kids run around the tiny backyard.
“It was a nice day,” she said, “so we just called each other on the phone and said, ‘Hey, we’re having a cookout.’”
She said she left the cookout about 9 p.m., then learned of the shooting from a friend who saw it mentioned on the 11 p.m. news.
One of her young grandchildren later told her that he thought he heard fireworks, so he looked out the window.
“I saw Mommy and a man on the ground, so I ran upstairs,” Ms. Shelton recalled her grandson saying. “He said he didn’t want the bad men to get him.”
Brittany Powell is survived by a daughter, Tamorroa. The family had recently celebrated her seventh birthday at a Dave & Buster’s.
In addition to her unborn child, Chanetta Powell had two children, Chloe, 8 months, and Jaron, 6.
Jerry Michael Shelton, of East Liberty, is survived by an 11-year-old daughter and 6-year-old son. Ms. Shelton remembered her son as a mild-mannered provider for his family, including fiancee Barbara Martin, and as a jokester who liked to make prank calls.
Another of Ms. Shelton’s sons, Lamont Powell, was among those wounded at the cookout. He was shot four times, she said. The other male victim was identified as John Ellis, 47. The wounded woman was not identified. A family dog was also shot.
Ms. Shelton said that while she was at the cookout, three men she did not know came by and were welcomed by one of her daughters, but Ms. Shelton left the gathering about two hours before the shooting and did not know what became of them.
“I’m just heartbroken today,” she said while crying. “I got a son in the hospital fighting for his life in critical condition. I can’t imagine losing four [children]. It’s just not right for me to lose four. To lose two beautiful nieces, it just breaks my heart.
“But I know with support of my friends and family we’re going to make it through this. With the prayers, we’re going to make it through this.”
Dan Majors: dmajors@post-gazette.com or 412-263-1456. Molly Born: mborn@post-gazette.com or 412-263-1944. Staff writers Andrew Goldstein, David Templeton, Karen Kane, Torsten Ove and Michael A. Fuoco contributed.
I'm sure that a trained psychologist would have a much more satisfying answer, but since I find the question fascinating I'll chime in anyway.
It's actually fairly simple, as I see it. We interpret a current sequence of events in the context of past events. Meaning that we bring our personal history to every new situation. It's this personal history that helps us create meaning for ourselves. Since no two people can have identical life experiences (even identical twins can't have completely identical life experiences), no two people will have the same personal history. As a result, their basis for creating meaning will differ.
Take an overly simple example: two people fall off a boat into the water. On the face of it, that's two people going through the same experience, right? But what if one of them doesn't know how to swim? To that person, it will be recorded as "the time I almost drowned," while to the other person it might be "that time I fell off a boat and had to swim back to shore." For every massive difference between them like that, there are many more smaller differences, each of which influences how an experience is recorded. Even emotional states influence interpretation.
You keep posting intelligent stuff like that and people will have to reconsider the fact that you are really a dumb ol' redneck.
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