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So, essentially, it could get a lot worse before it gets better.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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So, essentially, it could get a lot worse before it gets better. I don't see how it could be otherwise, Memphis. There will be a new QB (CK or draftee), new look on the Oline, and a new scheme. It most certainly will take some time, but if we see steady progress, then there's hope...
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Hypothetically lets imagine we actually get a decent RT in here that can add to our run game. Now how much will we have truly lost? I think adding Hue Jackson is bigger than losing the players we lost.
We get Bitonio back and healthy. We still have Joe Thomas. I actually love Bailey for RG. Grecco and Erving compete at center. Move up from the 3rd into the 2nd and Draft Shon Coleman and you have your RT for the next 10 years or until he hits free agency in 4 lol. OL doesn't skip a beat and we get bigger stronger and a bit nastier.
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jc... Are Browns getting it right by doing nothing? Posted by Mike Florio on March 14, 2016, 9:54 AM EDT link At a time when Browns fans are increasingly distressed by the franchise’s failure to keep key players who left via free agency or to replace them with other key players, there’s a Costanze-esque theory making the rounds that, by doing the opposite of what they’ve done in past years, the Browns may finally be getting it right. Bill Livingston of the Cleveland Plain Dealer advances that notion on behalf of the Browns, at a time when no one is saying much of anything on behalf of the Browns. Whether it’s because of action or inaction, things simply haven’t worked for the Browns in recent years. One of the guys who left the team within the past week but who spent four years in the franchise has no concrete explanation for the struggles. “It’s a bevy of things,” Gipson said on Friday’s PFT Live on NBC Sports Radio. “It’s not just free agency signings in the past or wrongful use of draft picks or wrongful use of players. It’s just a combination of a lot of things, and I wouldn’t say it’s all on the front office and I dang sure wouldn’t say it’s all on the players. I think that at some point the players, the front office, and the coaches all gotta get on the same page or it’s just going to continue to be a 4-12, 5-11 team. . . . The Cleveland Browns fan base, they deserve better than that. They more than certainly deserve better than that. . . . I’m always going to be rooting for them because they were the only team that took a chance on me but to answer that question I truly don’t know what it’s going to take to turn it around. But I know that it’s just going to continue to be a revolving door if it doesn’t get turned around year in and year out.” As the Browns try to turn it around this year, some folks within the league were surprised by the decision of Chief Strategy Officer Paul DePodesta to speak at the MIT Sloan Sports Analtyics Conference on Friday. Even if Cleveland’s current strategy is to do nothing, the thinking of some is that DePodesta, who is still new to football, should have been worried less about reflecting on the rise of Moneyball in baseball at the Sloan conference and more on figuring out the lay of the land in his new sport. And even if DePodesta has the capacity to do what he needs to do while nevertheless engaging in a one-day detour, the decision to travel to Boston for third day of the new league year creates the perception that DePodesta doesn’t have the same single-minded focus necessary to turn around the franchise, once and for all. From the article:   
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“When I was going to the Browns,” DePodesta said, “I had met with the ownership, Jimmy and Dee Haslam, and they asked me, ‘What do you want out of an owner?’ And I said, ‘Well, I’ll tell you what I don’t want.’ I said, ‘If you ever take your kids to an amusement park at Disneyland or whatever, they beg you to go on the big daddy roller coaster. They beg you. You say, ‘Are you sure?’ They say, ‘Absolutely, I want to go on this thing.’ So you wait in line for 45 minutes, it takes up a good chunk of your day, you finally get to the front of the line, they eyeball it, and they say, ‘Uh, I’m not getting on that thing. Not at all.’ And that’s what happens to a lot of owners. They would say, ‘Hey, we want ‘Moneyball,’ we want this disciplined approach to what we’re doing.’ But then when it comes time to making that hard decision, they say, ‘I don’t want any part of this.’ I said, ‘I need someone who’s going to want to get on the roller coaster with me knowing that it’s not always going to be fun. There are going to be parts of the roller coaster that are going to be scary, that are going to be uncomfortable, but hopefully at the end of the ride when we get off, you’re going to want to say, let’s do that again.’ But I think that’s how we always got through it, was having that shared vision from the beginning and giving you the conviction to actually go through with it.” would like to have listened to his speech. I have been trying to absorb as much of this stuff as I can.
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would like to have listened to his speech. I have been trying to absorb as much of this stuff as I can. That's a 54 minute Paul DePodesta talk.
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Sounds like Joe will soon be gone for a first round pick before he declines in value.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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DePodesta says he’s heard other team officials mock him, Browns Posted by Zac Jackson on March 14, 2016, 11:22 PM EDT andrew-weber-cleveland-browns-helmet Getty Images New Browns chief strategy officer Paul DePodesta is new to the NFL. He’s a former Major League Baseball general manager who also played a role in making the “Moneyball” approach popular with the Oakland A’s, and in his lone public appearance since joining the Browns he talked a lot about things like processes and shared vision. If it seems like a stretch to think the Browns can turn things around with analytics driving those processes and a bunch of Harvard guys in brand new roles, you’re not alone. While leaving last month’s NFL Scouting Combine DePodesta said he heard officials from other teams mocking him, not knowing he was standing near them at the Indianapolis Airport. “I was standing right in front of them in line and I could hear them in back of me and they were talking trash about me and the Cleveland Browns,” DePodesta said last week at the annual MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference. “I said, ‘All right, this is like 17 years ago in Oakland all over again.’ That’s part of the fun.” In a feature story posted by Baseball America on Monday, DePodesta opened up about some of the issues he’s faced in his first 10 weeks in his new job. “In baseball, I had a 20-year library of players and transactions and all that sort of thing that I don’t have right now, very admittedly,” he said. “As we were going through free agency this week, I was talking to some of the guys in the room and I was asking a lot of questions, but I said, I literally am not trying to lead the witness here, I truly don’t know and don’t have an opinion one way or the other. So that’s a real challenge for me, and just trying to take our mindset and bring it into football and create processes and systems around that is challenging. “As an organization though, and probably even more importantly, we have big challenges in front of us. We have a super competitive league, we haven’t been very successful on the field and we have a big mountain to climb, but I think we have the right team of people in place to do it.” The Browns chose to not be active in the first wave of free agency. Three offensive starters left for other teams on the first day the market opened, and by the weekend the Browns had lost five players to other teams and signed linebacker Justin Tuggle and offensive lineman Alvin Bailey, both of whom are young players who mostly have been backups. Only time will tell whether the Browns are following some sort of analytics-driven plan or just didn’t mind seeing a bunch of guys from a 3-13 team in 2015 take significant money from other teams. In the Baseball America article, DePodesta said he learned from his time in baseball that the only way whatever new approaches the Browns will work is to have the vision and patience to stick with them. “A lot of (baseball) owners would say, ‘Hey, we want ‘Moneyball,’ we want this disciplined approach to what we’re doing,” he said. “But then when it comes time to making that hard decision, they say, ‘I don’t want any part of this.’ I said, ‘I need someone who’s going to want to get on the roller coaster with me knowing that it’s not always going to be fun. There are going to be parts of the roller coaster that are going to be scary, that are going to be uncomfortable, but hopefully at the end of the ride when we get off, you’re going to want to say, let’s do that again.’ “I think that’s how we always got through it, was having that shared vision from the beginning and giving you the conviction to actually go through with it.” link
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Count me in as not thinking the MIT speech is such a big deal. Hard to imagine us putting any big decisions on hold on Friday, pending his return.
I didn't know I gave an opinion, either way!
I simply pasted a story with information and without comment. I do that occasionally keeping up with the information available.
I doubt that DePo keeping a speaking engagement tells us anything about his involvement with the decisions made so far by this front office.
Had Sushi taken the day off to speak somewhere else, THAT WOULD BE A STORY.
The decisions out of this front office are the responsibility Sashi Brown and Jimmy Haslam...these two are running the show.
Not doing "anything" after screwing up BIGTIME (by not resigning any of their starting free agents)..."doing nothing" beats "doing more harm"...probably the best move Shushi and Jimmy have made, given their performance in free agency so far.
Last edited by mac; 03/15/16 08:35 AM.
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Here's thing with all of this. Anyone who had the silly thought that we were going to use analysis and turn things around overnight were kidding themselves.
But already, fans are all over these guys.
I have no idea if this will work, but we're in it now, let it play out.
#GMSTRONG
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... we're in it now, let it play out. I don't know whether we have seen/felt any impact of "analytics" as yet, but there are no half-way measures. Stay the course and let the chips fall where they may...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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Count me in as not thinking the MIT speech is such a big deal. Hard to imagine us putting any big decisions on hold on Friday, pending his return.
I didn't know I gave an opinion, either way!
I simply pasted a story with information and without comment. I do that occasionally keeping up with the information available.I swear someone else said they didn't see the big deal about it and now the post is gone. Wasn't specifically responding to your post. Lets consider it my opinion posted advance in preparation of conflicting opinions. LOL
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Hypothetically lets imagine we actually get a decent RT in here that can add to our run game. Now how much will we have truly lost? I think adding Hue Jackson is bigger than losing the players we lost.
We get Bitonio back and healthy. We still have Joe Thomas. I actually love Bailey for RG. Grecco and Erving compete at center. Move up from the 3rd into the 2nd and Draft Shon Coleman and you have your RT for the next 10 years or until he hits free agency in 4 lol. OL doesn't skip a beat and we get bigger stronger and a bit nastier.
The moves so far illustrate a franchise that lies and treats their own players like crap when it comes time for their second contract. Their actions "scream" that the Browns are CHEAP when it comes signing their own players...in other words, not much has changed with the addition of the Big Brain front office.
Keep in mind, it's not just 'me' that is questioning this front office...purposely losing 40% of an offensive line that was considered one of the top ten in the NFL...it surely caught the attention of Kaepernick and his agent. Kaepernick knew his health would be in more jeopardy due to moves the Browns front office made in free agency and the deal that looked like it might get done, Kaepernick to the Browns...doesn't look so appealing to Kaepernick and his agent, now that the Big Brain front office got a chance to show them how they operate!
This from the Sacramento Bee... link
"After all, Kaepernick likes new Browns coach Hue Jackson. He is pushing his team to acquire Kaepernick, who would like to play for Jackson.
But somehow the 3-13 Browns managed to get worse since the start of free agency on Wednesday. They lost starting center Alex Mack, right tackle Mitchell Schwartz and wide receiver Travis Benjamin.
Kaepernick is willing to restructure his contract and take less money to get out of San Francisco. But after getting sacked 80 times in the last 1 1/2 seasons and having three surgeries since December, he’s wary of taking a lower-money deal on a bad team that is losing talent and that may also use its first-round pick, No. 2 overall, on a quarterback."
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It makes no sense what the Browns front office just did, unless they were just concerned about money and adding even more Cap Space. Looks to me like the plan is to lead the NFL in Cap Space.
The first moves by the Browns front office actually created two more holes to fill. Kaepernick doesn't want to be the Browns sacrificial lamb while the front office tries to save money rather than build a winning team. Kappy knows he would be a bone to be chewed while Sushi and Hue "experiment" with the offensive line.
Kappy and/or his agent also know if the Browns draft a QB at #2, they are not going to put a rookie behind a "suspect Oline". Haslam and Sashi would rather sign Kaepernick and let him take the punishment while Hue and Sushi dink around with the Oline. All it takes is one blown assignment and a QB can be done for the year.
If Kappy should sign with the Browns, it will be another example of how the Browns function under Jimmy Haslam, who is too damn cheap to sign his own players but willing to dump tons on someone elses used up free agents.
Then there are Jimmy's own words from his Jan 3, 2016 presser.... Haslam Jan 3, 2016 presser..13:30 mark
"We are not going to go out and spend a gazillion dollars in free agency," ..."We are going to build through the draft because we are firmly convinced that is the right way to do it."
At this point, we know the franchise has been set back years with the losses of our own free agents. It would seem that the Browns owner and front office are headed in the wrong direction...making it up as they go.
Last edited by mac; 03/15/16 11:00 AM.
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not sure why some keep saying we let Mack go. we did no such thing Mack was gone anyway, he did not want to be here plain and simple.
I bet you're wondering the samething I did, why O' why didn't I take the...blue pill
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not sure why some keep saying we let Mack go. we did no such thing Mack was gone anyway, he did not want to be here plain and simple. Again, if I have this right (and there is no guarantee that I do) we offered more money than he accepted, but we offered less in guaranteed money. That's actually a pretty good reason for a player his age to accept less. Especially once you find out you are not superman and CAN get injured.
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not sure why some keep saying we let Mack go. we did no such thing Mack was gone anyway, he did not want to be here plain and simple. Again, if I have this right (and there is no guarantee that I do) we offered more money than he accepted, but we offered less in guaranteed money. That's actually a pretty good reason for a player his age to accept less. Especially once you find out you are not superman and CAN get injured. Ok i hear ya Damanshot, it is my opinion my friend that if we offered the very same deal he took he would have still chosen to leave. I very well could be wrong on that. It's just the feeling I get
I bet you're wondering the samething I did, why O' why didn't I take the...blue pill
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Its like Dawson all over again...He obviously wanted to get off the Browns crazy train. Who can blame him?
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Here's thing with all of this. Anyone who had the silly thought that we were going to use analysis and turn things around overnight were kidding themselves.
But already, fans are all over these guys.
I have no idea if this will work, but we're in it now, let it play out. here is a thought...DePodesta said it just takes some of the guess work out of getting talent. not much guesswork with the FAs we let walk. how about keeping proven talent? i know thats a novel idea for the browns......
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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not sure why some keep saying we let Mack go. we did no such thing Mack was gone anyway, he did not want to be here plain and simple. Prove it!
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not sure why some keep saying we let Mack go. we did no such thing Mack was gone anyway, he did not want to be here plain and simple.
They had a chance to sign him and they had to know it would take pretty high number to land the best center in the NFL.
...so what did the Browns offer Mack?
Well, the Atlanta Falcons had no problem finding the cap space to sign Mack, making him the highest paid center in the NFL.
So Haslam and Sushi were too damn cheap to resign their own center, considered one of the very best in the NFL.
It is obvious to me that the offensive line is not a priority for the Big Brains.
Why doesn't Kaepernick want to join the Browns?...might have something to do with losing two of the best in the NFL...Schwartz and Mack.
The Big Brains are too damn cheap to pay for their own free agents but will have no problem dumping tons of cap dollars on some other teams used up free agent...
...in other words, nothing has changed in Cleveland...the Browns front office is still a screwed up mess.
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here is a thought...DePodesta said it just takes some of the guess work out of getting talent. not much guesswork with the FAs we let walk. how about keeping proven talent? i know thats a novel idea for the browns...... Yep. That's the issue, or least the one I get hung up on. The people we let walk: We had the money to spend. They were proven players Still young with alot of great football ahead Could be plugged into any scheme ran by any offensive coordinator, day one and rip it. ... that's why I'm sweating so much. Had we signed just one of our o-linemen, I don't think there would be hardly any the negative and panic going on, or the questions about the new staff. Perhaps they want a totally new team, but perhaps the fans don't have the patience to wait four years to start seeing any progress. Other teams are starting to turn the corner, and here we are...
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not sure why some keep saying we let Mack go. we did no such thing Mack was gone anyway, he did not want to be here plain and simple. Prove it! Ummm he opted out of his contract and left. That pretty much says what I need to hear. 
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Ummm he opted out of his contract and left. That pretty much says what I need to hear.
In the end, the Big Brains were too damn cheap to beat the Falcon's offer.
We need to consider something...what is Money Ball?
IMO, it's a philosophy of putting together a team as "cheaply" as possible, hoping to build that team into a winner.
Problem trying that in the NFL, per the league contract each franchise is supposed to spend 89% of the cap, which is increasing yearly
...from $143 mill in 2015
...to $155 mill in 2016.
So why wouldn't the Browns want to spend their cap dollars to improve the team?
Unless owners have figured out some way to skim off of the Cap and put it in their pockets...I can't understand why the Browns are unwilling to compete in the NFL market for FA players...ESPECIALLY THEIR OWN FREE AGENTS.
What the hell are the Browns saving their cap space for??? They are not using the cap space in an attempt to improve the team, that is obvious by their lack of free agency activity.
Last edited by mac; 03/15/16 12:28 PM.
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Mack opted out to let the market determine his worth and still giving the Browns front office an opportunity to sign him.
PROVE IT! 
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IMO, it's a philosophy of putting together a team as "cheaply" as possible, hoping to build that team into a winner. Its not about being "cheap" It's about finding VALUE. The A's didnt have the Yankees or Red Sox money, so they had to find VALUE at a lower price. In the NFL everyone has the same amount of money to spend. But you can still look for VALUE in FA and the Draft.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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not sure why some keep saying we let Mack go. we did no such thing Mack was gone anyway, he did not want to be here plain and simple. Prove it! I do not have to prove it. he opted out, that says it all...Prove he wanted to stay
I bet you're wondering the samething I did, why O' why didn't I take the...blue pill
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not sure why some keep saying we let Mack go. we did no such thing Mack was gone anyway, he did not want to be here plain and simple.
They had a chance to sign him and they had to know it would take pretty high number to land the best center in the NFL.
...so what did the Browns offer Mack?
Well, the Atlanta Falcons had no problem finding the cap space to sign Mack, making him the highest paid center in the NFL.
So Haslam and Sushi were too damn cheap to resign their own center, considered one of the very best in the NFL.
It is obvious to me that the offensive line is not a priority for the Big Brains.
Why doesn't Kaepernick want to join the Browns?...might have something to do with losing two of the best in the NFL...Schwartz and Mack.
The Big Brains are too damn cheap to pay for their own free agents but will have no problem dumping tons of cap dollars on some other teams used up free agent...
...in other words, nothing has changed in Cleveland...the Browns front office is still a screwed up mess.
If Mack really wanted to be here he could have played out his contract. still could've made a pretty penny for the team he wanted to be with. it does not take a genius to see he was not too interested in remaining with Cleveland. Being cheap had nothing to do with it. and as for Kap, Mckown is the better QB imo. So I am happy he appears to not be heading this way as of yet. I do believe the Browns are not interested in paying Kap 12 mil a year I heard the offered between 7 and 8 mil and that's it...not exactly a ton of Cap dollars thrown his way in my opinion.
I bet you're wondering the samething I did, why O' why didn't I take the...blue pill
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Mack opted out and left because he wanted the most money possible, not because he didn't want to be here. Him leaving was a function of getting more money somewhere else.
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Mack opted out and left because he wanted the most money possible, not because he didn't want to be here. Him leaving was a function of getting more money somewhere else. We have no idea what the reason is. To assume all the information is out there for us to dissect is just not accurate. Thus asking someone to "prove it" one way or the other is utter nonsense. We are all fans of a freaking message board (although some feel like they're more than that) and we have limited information on almost EVERYTHING.
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Mack opted out and left because he wanted the most money possible, not because he didn't want to be here. Him leaving was a function of getting more money somewhere else. Or was it the most guaranteed money?
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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Mack opted out and left because he wanted the most money possible, not because he didn't want to be here. Him leaving was a function of getting more money somewhere else. Or was it the most guaranteed money? Those are the same thing. Any money not guaranteed in the NFL should not be considered.
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Mack opted out and left because he wanted the most money possible, not because he didn't want to be here. Him leaving was a function of getting more money somewhere else. We have no idea what the reason is. To assume all the information is out there for us to dissect is just not accurate. Thus asking someone to "prove it" one way or the other is utter nonsense. We are all fans of a freaking message board (although some feel like they're more than that) and we have limited information on almost EVERYTHING. can't argue with that
I bet you're wondering the samething I did, why O' why didn't I take the...blue pill
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Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 9,332 |
Mack opted out and left because he wanted the most money possible, not because he didn't want to be here. Him leaving was a function of getting more money somewhere else. Or was it the most guaranteed money? Those are the same thing. Any money not guaranteed in the NFL should not be considered. You're saying that money was the reason he left? How about words straight from the man himself: “I will say that winning is really important to me,” Mack said, via Cleveland.com. Link
![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/fkjZc8B/Bull-Dawg-Sig-smaller.jpg) You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,656
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,656 |
IMO, it's a philosophy of putting together a team as "cheaply" as possible, hoping to build that team into a winner. Its not about being "cheap" It's about finding VALUE. The A's didnt have the Yankees or Red Sox money, so they had to find VALUE at a lower price. In the NFL everyone has the same amount of money to spend. But you can still look for VALUE in FA and the Draft. I agree. It's also about not being able to afford being wrong in talent evaluation. In baseball, the teams with the most money can essentially "write off" a bad signing. The lower market teams don't have that luxury, so they have to be spot on with their picks and signings. This is an area, I really hope improves with the Browns, because it's been less than stellar overall in the past few years.
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
-Derek Jeter
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
Mack opted out and left because he wanted the most money possible, not because he didn't want to be here. Him leaving was a function of getting more money somewhere else. Or was it the most guaranteed money? Those are the same thing. Any money not guaranteed in the NFL should not be considered. You're saying that money was the reason he left? How about words straight from the man himself: “I will say that winning is really important to me,” Mack said, via Cleveland.com. Link Who said winning wasn't important?
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
not sure why some keep saying we let Mack go. we did no such thing Mack was gone anyway, he did not want to be here plain and simple. Prove it! I do not have to prove it. he opted out, that says it all...Prove he wanted to stay I would not make such a stupid/deceptive statement. I don't know how it went down. Neither do you. Just because some guys on a message board say it over and over and over and over....does not make it true. It may be true. It may not be true. Stating it as fact either way is simply a trick to deceive other posters. Furthermore........what if ALL the Brown's free agents wanted out? What does that prove? Who is more of an indictment on? All four guys? Or the Browns?
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
Mack opted out and left because he wanted the most money possible, not because he didn't want to be here. Him leaving was a function of getting more money somewhere else. We have no idea what the reason is. To assume all the information is out there for us to dissect is just not accurate. Thus asking someone to "prove it" one way or the other is utter nonsense. We are all fans of a freaking message board (although some feel like they're more than that) and we have limited information on almost EVERYTHING. can't argue with that Can't argue w/that? LMAO Dude, you started the crap w/this statement: not sure why some keep saying we let Mack go. we did no such thing Mack was gone anyway, he did not want to be here plain and simple. Goodness. I see Memphis has a protege.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,674
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,674 |
not sure why some keep saying we let Mack go. we did no such thing Mack was gone anyway, he did not want to be here plain and simple. Prove it! I do not have to prove it. he opted out, that says it all...Prove he wanted to stay I would not make such a stupid/deceptive statement. I don't know how it went down. Neither do you. Just because some guys on a message board say it over and over and over and over....does not make it true. It may be true. It may not be true. Stating it as fact either way is simply a trick to deceive other posters. Furthermore........what if ALL the Brown's free agents wanted out? What does that prove? Who is more of an indictment on? All four guys? Or the Browns? dont think it really matters at this point do you?...fact is he and they are gone...not going to mope around about it...that's just me.
I bet you're wondering the samething I did, why O' why didn't I take the...blue pill
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,270
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,270 |
Furthermore........what if ALL the Brown's free agents wanted out? What does that prove? Who is more of an indictment on?
All four guys? Or the Browns? It would be a direct result of Haslam's lack of patience in regards to placing any value on continuity and stability.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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