DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum OL going forward

Find a QB that can make quick decisions and the line will look a lot better..

Regardless of who we add from here on, with Thomas, Bitonio, Greco, and yes even Irving, we have a better line than a LOT of teams..

Why are you penalizing the offensive line because McCown is a moron who can't find a WR? Also why are we penalizing the line's run blocking because our FB and TE's let every defender cross their face?

Can we just be real with ourselves and admit that the Browns had the top line in the NFL for the past few years?

No, because that would be admitting that the team has been made worse. And we can't have that!

I know quite a bit about OL play from my past experience. I try and explain things to some of the guys, but not too many like to be educated. It's always a ......swinging contest. Not sure why?

I don't pretend to be knowledgeable about the salary cap, trades, the stock market, how to play music, etc. I actually like learning from those who are good at those things. It kinda blows my mind that people don't want to learn when there are clearly people on here who actually do know about OL play.

Now, I appreciate you defending the OL. I wouldn't say they were the best OL in football, but they were up there. Probably top 5 for sure. Maybe higher.

Sorry, but I don't know you well enough to tell if you're being sarcastic, or else on crack. I'm inclined to think you are being sarcastic, but ...

I tried to use a wider net to get a higher average Forgot about Schwartz's first year though

I'd say we've had a top 5 line since 2011, but since I'm a homer, I'm going to say it's thee best.

Did you see McCown play? This year? Josh McCown? Not his brother Luke. Josh's major problem was that he held onto the ball very long.

Did you see Malcolm Johnson play FB for us? Because I don't remember it. Could have sworn we had 10 guys on the field when he was on. Maybe 9 because he'd often screw up other people's assignments in the process of screwing up his.

Is this the same moron who had a QB Rating of 93+ ? The moron who played as well as any QB since Derek Anderson in '07? He completed 64% of his passes with 12 TD passes and 4 Ints in 8 games. Is that the moron you're referring to?

Also, the pass rush and run defense that you saw blowing up our offense last year came up the middle; much less so from the edges. And you want to blame the the TE's and FB's failure to run block and chip pass rushers? Our interior OL was getting trucked on a lot of those plays.

What is your experience regarding OL play. I have tried to be very polite w/my responses, but you are calling a guy who agrees w/me a "moron." How should I take that? Am I a moron because I agree w/him?

I am trying to educate you, but you seem to be acting like you are the one who has more knowledge. Why?

I should apologize for the remark about you being on crack - okay, I apologize - but this was the statement that made me wonder if you were being sarcastic. But this OL was 30th in sacks allowed, and when I say 30th I mean that they allowed more sacks than 29 other teams in the league. They were 23rd in rush yards per game. The top line in the NFL?

One last thing, 3-13 is not the record for any team that has the "top OL in the NFL", especially with a QB that was playing well. That's just intuitive, not me claiming to be some kind of football maven.

He was talking about McCown in his questions, not the poster.

Read what I wrote again Vers. I didn't call anyone a moron. I was quoting his characterization of McCown as a moron.

Once again, you are completely discounting that our QBs held the ball for a long time. And yes, that is a stat that the metric people use.

You have also discounted the lopsided scores of many of our games when we absolutely had to pass the ball.

You may have also ignored that Flip threw the ball a high percentage of the time and often abandoned the running game early on.

You also may not have considered that our WRs were not very good and that they did not create much separation.

You have also apparently ignored that our TEs and FB were terrible blockers.

But yeah, if we disagree w/your opinion, we are morons and/or on crack.

You are correct. I apologize for that mistake.

But, I know quite a bit about OL play, QB play, WR play, playcalling, etc............and our OL did not suck last year. They were a strength.

Why the hell is it so hard for so many of our posters to actually try and learn from various people who actually do have experience in certain areas?

For example, I called out to you, Clem, lamp, Portland, Diesel, etc for help when I wanted to learn more about music.

I ask steve about draft things.

I defer to Deputy when he starts talking football analytics.

I listen to YTown on cap issues.

I am all ears when Excel is talking about cap things in basketball.

I like to learn from those who know more than I do in certain areas. I am just sick of some of these guys acting like they know everything about the game and make it more of a .......swinging contest than actual football conversation.

j/c

I agree our QBs held the ball too long at times. I'm not sure that those were primarily the plays they got sacked on though. I wish there were advanced stats for time from snap to sack. I think they would be educational.

Flip threw a lot because that's what was moving the ball. Our run blocking was not great. The RBs may not have helped. I don't intend to watch all that terrible football again to figure it out.

When I first joined the board, knowing nothing about message boards, I came in with two goals. 1) To be accepted by the fans on here and 2) To learn as much as I can about football.

One thing I have learned is that if you have no experience in the game you're not going to learn "all about it" from a message board. But that has never stopped me from taking away from it all that I can get.

Over time I have learned a lot but not enough of the deep stuff to always have a valid opinion on some things. About 10 years ago I got to talk football with a successful HS coach. We were talking OL. He told me about the "game within the game", especially along the trenches. My mind was blown! I had an inkling before that but never knew how much that figured into play. One conversation is not enough to walk away with "experience" but it was enough to let me know a bit about what I didn't know. It made me think that there is so much, much more that I have no idea about. I was humbled.

Back to my goals when joining the board. I came to get along and learn. I think, due to human nature and differing peosonalities (both in real life and on the internet), everyone has some sort of goal when joining. Some join to impress others, some learn a little bit and then think they know a lot now, some think that no one knows any more than they do because, after all, we're all just "fans". You could build on all of that but no one can say there aren't a lot of different people with different goals and personalities.

I hate the bickering that will sometimes take over a thread instigated by those of whom I know have nothing to offer but a boisterous opinion. And then it's perpetrated by like minds.

Sometimes people will throw an opinion out there and then feel like they have to defend it to the death or risk losing face, or something. So they'll argue with anyone to avoid that at all costs. They feel they have to be right. But there's nothing wrong with changing your mind if in the course of the conversation you learn something at causes you to change your opinion. But you have to be open to learn in order to do that.

It reminds me of when I first got in the Army. Everybody had the fastest cars and the hottest women. After a while I realized half of them probably didn't even have a car and 80% of couldn't score a hot chick if they had lots of money. But nearly all come in looking to impress somebody, or at least not appear to be the dork, but in doing that they appear to be the dork.

There are some folks on this board who have various levels of experience. Some have played at various levels, some have coached at various levels. You never know who they are unless you listen more than you talk and consider what is being said. If you really consider their thoughts, rather than getting into a pissing match in an effort to protect your own manhood you might learn something. If you do, remember where you learned it. That person will not always be right but they shouldn't be dismissed.

That's a good post.

I can say this: The one thing that made you one of--if not my absolute--favorite posters over the years is that you were the one guy who embraced learning the most. Well.........Diam was the same. We sometimes forget that because he was such a tough debater. But, he really did like to learn. You were always a willing learner.

I ain't going to get it into it too much, but from some of our PMs and that one "Amazing" thread, I have begun to think that you aren't as open to learning as you were once were. I despise the positive/negative talk. I just want realism.

That's a broad statement. And I don't want it to be confused w/disagreeing w/one another. One poster made a claim about me in the Draft forum that I fawned over a certain poster until he disagreed w/me and then I ripped him. Well, I didn't respond to that statement, but the truth is that I disagreed w/that poster's take right from the beginning. I respected his intelligence and loved how he debated things. That is why I praised him. We NEVER agreed. I later believed that he really wasn't interested in true debate or other's opinions, but already had his mind made up..........and THAT is what changed my mind about him. We NEVER agreed, so when that poster accused me of that.......it was just another false statement.

Not sure where I am going w/all of this........I seem to be philosophical tonight w/out any true answers.......

Let's see..............I think we all have our strengths. I was really disappointed when you didn't respond on the thread I started about Math and Music. I like learning from you in that area. You know WAY more than I do about music. And it doesn't hurt my ego to say that.

Okay......I know about OL play. I was a pretty darn good RB who got multiple offers and I know the importance of an OL. I coached OL. I was an OC. I was paid by a scouting service. I don't like bringing that up, but man, when I am trying to actually educate some folks and they act like I am stupid .....it's just a bit much.

I am going stand by my claim that our OL was damn good last year.......except for Erving.

Oh...........one more thing. You said this:



Interesting. And honorable.

I'm trying to think of my goals. I think I only had one...............to talk football.

McCown may have held the ball for too long, but so did Manziel. QB's tend to hold the ball too long when WR's can't get separation.

Not sure, but JM probably held it for even longer.

ddubia, first, thanks for serving.

Second, your post dead on. I joined to find information. I've leaned more. There are a lot of passionate people on this board. Many can't see others agenda. If they took the time to understand, not necessarily agree, they maybe learn something. I struggle here myself.

What were out sacks given up per drop back? That's an important ratio. Also, Vers is correct. Even a .5 second snap to pass average ratio can make a world of difference. Look at our sacks in 2007. By your stats, our week 1 line was atrocious with Frye, but then miraculously turned it around when DA came in.

Which one?

I agree with Vers that there were the several factors that made the line look worse than it actually was, but only to a point. Those stats having us as high as #5 in the league are laughable (even for pass-blocking). We couldn't run the ball, and (especially later in the year when injuries set in), we were getting bowled over by pass rushers.

I also believe that the rest of our groups being as weak as they were contributed somewhat to the idea that the line was strong. Maybe that's a silly thought, but that's the takeaway that I had from watching a couple games.

I didn't respond to that because I didn't feel comfortable in having anything to add. Though I do see the correlation between math and music I never really think about it that way. I do have some understanding in theory which includes that. Math is also in the frequencies but what does that mean to me? I play by ear and feel. I read music so slowly it's almost worthless to me. I can play most all the timing signatures but it's by feel more than by counting. So I just didn't think I had anything to add. Had I posted in that thread this would have been the post which would have discouraging to the conversation.

Our line was pretty good in pass protection and sucked booty in run blocking. Teams were not loading up to stop the run and really didnt have to blitz us that much. Anyway we didnt have anyone that was gonna physically drive the opponent off the line. They were better run blocking in a zone stretch but even then, they really werent trying to cut their man like under shanny, it was more of a nice guy version of zone when we tried it. It sucked.

Yes. It's quite amazing to see what even a bad QB can do when he has 5 seconds to throw the ball. If Tim Couch had this line he'd have been Peyton Manning (Not really, but I'm sure he'd be good).

Ok and? Our internals have been banged up quite a bit these past two years. That probably contributes to us not being our best, because our best players were not playing healthy. I think DeFlippo didn't shore up our weaknesses and they got rather exploited a bit more than they should have. I'm not going to blame that on the line play. Not to mention that they still did very good despite not even having a COACH. The fact that we can even have an argument about how dominate they were this season, without a coach, proves how dominate they were.

J/C ......

I remember back in 2007, when we started off the season with a "lousy" OL.

Those dummies were going to get Frye killed! He was sacked 5 times in something like 15 drop backs.

Then DA came into the game, replacing Frye. He was sacked 14 times in 541 drop backs covering the rest of the year.

A QB can have a huge impact on OL play. He can make a so-so line look great, and can make a good OL look so-so, or even bad.

This is true, but also remember that the 2007 O-Line was diff than the 2006. I believe in 2007 we had Hank Fraley come in to play center (which he played excellent, but he was a late grab for us, late in the offseason/pre-season), Joe Thomas was brand new and starting at LT. Eric Steinbach, brand new to us. Plus, Kevin Schaffer had to switch to RT again, and Ryan Tucker was suspended the first 4 games.

So, that line, which was absolutely excellent, wasn't the same Week 1 as it was Week 17.


Of course, DA threw the ball much quicker than Frye, and KW2 and Braylon (and less so Steve Heiden/Joe J) were catching that thing wherever he threw it, lol.

Mixed with Jamal Lewis and his one cut-hit the hole running style, and that was a team to be reckoned with.


That 2nd Cincy game was such a downer. One of my low points as a Browns fan, the playoffs would have been so much fun

Do you know? I mean, I have no idea of the exact offers... Do you? Please share!

LOL.........whoops.

Manziel.

Our O-line:

Joe T: another perfect year.

Bitonio: Did not look as good as the prior year, most likely due to the high ankle sprain. Still played at a very good level though.

Mack: Had a very slow start, but came on strong as the year went on.

Greco: Had an extremely good year especially in the running game.

Paztor: Extremely nice surprise. Excels as a pulling guard.

Schwartz: Probably had his best year this year and in the argument for best RT in football.

Erving: Not ready for prime time. Needs to learn leverage and lower his pad level.

Overall it hard to say whether last year or the year before was the unit's best year. I would put us in the top 5 for both years.

Then why were the stats so bad?

Our QB's held the ball too long.

They held the ball too long because our WR's could not get separation.

Our main RB forgot how to run for 80% of the year.

Our TE's, FB, RB's and WR's forgot how to block. I have never seen so many total whifs on blocking assignments.


I am not sure that our o-line is going to take a huge step back. If we would have signed Schwartz, I don't think it would have taken any step back.

I know that we have 4 of the 5 o-line spots covered for sure. I am certain that we could cover either Mack's position or Schwartz's with the guys that we have.

We might even be able to cover that 5th spot with what we have, but I'm not certain of that.

So where is that 5th guy going to come from if he isn't already here? Probably the scrap heap. That's where we got Greco and that's where we got Paztor. It could be a UDFA or a cast-off from another team, but it's very doable. It could also be another draft pick, but I don't think it would be before the 3rd day this year.

I would not write off Erving just yet. Colleges do not teach o-line the same as they did 10 years ago. Players drafted today are not taught the same fundamentals. A new staff is going to focus on the 1st rounder this off-season. With better fundamentals, you'll see an improvement.

This is all just my two cents. But I don't think the sky is falling as far as the o-line goes. I don't like that we lost Schwartz for the price that he went for, but I wouldn't have paid Mack what he got.

Not really, I'd just like to know the numbers, I don't know them and it appears that you do, or at least I think you might.. Can you share

I have to agree with you that none of us know exactly what did or didn't go down.

I would like to state however, the guaranteed portion of an NFL contract is what players look at the most. Other than that money, an NFL team can default on a contract at any point in time.

Ha!.... I heard the exact same thing said by way too many posters here last year. They weren't fine. But I hope ur right, and we take a stud olineman with one of our first two picks. Hopefully #32

Make it a private conversation if you don't want other comments. Pretty simple.