Pre-Snap has to be done. You look at the coverages the defense and from the tree pre snap take your best miss match on the field.
Now a lot of QBs who don't make it...Weeden for example. They just do not know when to move onto the Progression - they have to see Post snap that the miss match just is not there for whatever reason. Move onto the progression. Not locking onto that one WR and just won't move the eyes or head.
You can teach QBs especially at a young age how to conquer that bad habit. I would always teach a primary read and then to quickly decide if that miss match is there or not, if not quickly move onto the check down. And you build from there.
You try to teach the tree and play where actually without locking onto one WR but see the field and read the key defender if he goes there you are hitting so n so. This is how you have patterns set up and ran on different levels of the field.
But its a mental thing. For the life of me I don't know why a lot of QBs just stick with that Pre Snap read and refuse to let go. Or they finally get off of it but its way too late and get hit. jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
.............is will he ever be able to read defenses post-snap?
Vers, this is a teaching moment for me. What I mean is that I am not sure what a post-snap read is. I think I understand what a pre-snap read is because the QB has to determine what he thinks the defense is going to do, call the right protection, audible if he thinks the O is in the wrong play. But can you explain to me what or how you read post-snap or what the QB is looking for post-snap? Also if I am wrong on the pre-snap read can you tell me where I am wrong so I can try to get the concept? Thanks.
Traveler and I had a discussion about this on another RGIII thread. I will copy and paste it. There are also a couple of links to click on that should help. Let me know if you have any questions. I'll try to answer them. Who knows, others might join in and we can have an intelligent conversation. Traveler was the ONLY person who responded the last time, but I get an infinite number of replies regarding the "not true" post.
Anyway.......here goes and let me know what you think:
Quote:
There is a difference between reading defenses pre-snap vs post-snap. I call the latter reading coverages, but I think that confuses people on this board. Whatever........it's not important what we call it.
Reading defenses pre-snap is something that a lot of film study can help. You look for tendencies on down and distances, field position, time left in the game, what the score is, etc. You can exploit things by getting your team in the right play by the look you see at the LOS. Thus, you can improve quite a bit in that area.
Reading defenses [coverages] post-snap is a different world. Teams often disguise their pre-snap looks and switch into a different coverage. There are also smart defenders out there who come off of their guy because they read the offensive play. There are guys that bait you and that is why throwing w/anticipation is so important. Guys break on balls way faster than they do in college, so it is imperative to throw w/anticipation [again] and to make quick reads.
Guys who aren't sure of what they see tend to do several bad things.
--First, they begin by throwing what we call "dumb interceptions." "What was he looking at?" "Where was he throwing that ball?"
--Second, they start taking a lot of sacks because they aren't sure of what they are seeing and throwing picks is a HUGE negative w/the media and fans. Teammates and coaches don't like it either, but coaches and offensive linemen hate when they take the blame for the QB getting sacked too much because the latter held the ball too long. The Browns have had plenty of those guys, such as Timid, Frye, BQ [to a certain extent], Weeden [OMG], McCown, Davis, and Manziel.
--Next, QBs who can't read post-snap cover...ooppps...defenses, tend to check down a lot after their coaches and teammates start riding their ass. 3 and 10? Throw a 2 yard pass leading a guy out of bounds. Timid was the master of that. First look isn't open, check down immediately. Weeden anyone? Don't like what you see........heave it out of bounds. BQ did that often and who was that other guy.....oh yeah........Seneca Wallace. Anyone remember all his passes that sailed out of bounds?
Tulsa, the thing w/reading defenses post-snap is that you really have a hard time coaching that up. It's about processing speed. Seeing what is really there. The game is so fast. Guys like you and I would see only a blur. Even the terrible qbs are so much better at it than the rest of the population. It's an innate gift.
____________________________________________
Quote: Hi Vers (I read a lot on the board and don't jump in much) - Question for you on this, if you don't mind. I was reading this article Brady Release after your post as it got me to think just how much time a QB has to make that post-snap read. When you say Defenses change looks post snap, how much of the pre-snap read will still be accurate? Also, will Offense scheme dictate this more than defense? Can the Offense scheme around this to help RGIII out?
Hey Traveler.
I probably worded that poorly. Teams don't always change their looks post-snap. I don't even know the percentage of times they do. I used the word often, but that may not be the case. I wasn't trying to deceive anyone; just typing fast.
The point I was making that guys who struggle w/reading defenses post-snap will face big-time issues when teams do change their initial look or when guys come out of their designed coverage because they see something. They also struggle w/anticipation.
The pre-snap read is often accurate. But it won't be if the team switches their coverage up from ....let's say.... a Cover 2 to a Cover 3. Thus, the QB...and actually the rest of the offense, has to decipher that instantly. It's tough, man. Here is a fairly simplistic video of what what the qb and offense should do: https://realfootballnetwork.com/2015/08/16/pre-snap-post-snap-reads/
Can you imagine doing that instantly? It's tough to make reads while you are on the move and facing pressure. It's a true gift.
LOL.........it's a lot to digest, isn't it. That isn't even Cover 0, Cover 1, Cover 3, Cover 6, etc
I found your article interesting because when comparing Brady vs Manning over the years, I always thought that Manning was the master of the pre-snap read while Brady was the master of the post-snap read. It's funny they didn't even mention Brady's post-snap reads in that article.
Hmmmmm........what else did you ask me? Oh yeah, does the offense dictate this more than the defense? Not sure I understand the question. The defense will change their looks to confuse the QB and the offense. It would be up to the offense to adjust to the change. Maybe I misunderstood your question, though.
And the other one...Can the offense scheme to help RGIII out? Well, as you know, a lot of collegiate offenses give the qb one read. That's why it's so tough for NFL scouts to determine if college qbs can make it in the NFL. It's not that they can say "so and so can't read coverages," it's just that they don't know because many college offenses don't ask the qb to go through progressions.
That won't happen in the NFL, but I know that sometimes NFL teams will limit the number of reads a qb has to make. Here is an example that you might remember. Browns were playing Denver in a night game in Cleveland. It was BQ's first start. They only had him read half the field on each play, thereby making it simpler for him to make his reads. I think teams will shorten the route trees at times and then throw a few deep plays scattered in throughout the game to help keep defenses honest. For an example........think Manziel vs Tenn earlier this year. There are probably more examples and maybe some one like Dep or steve can add to these.
Of course, no OC is going to want to limit his repertoire. Defenses do catch-up after studying an offenses tendencies, schemes, etc over the course of 4 weeks or so. That severely hampers your offense and you see teams start off hot and then fizzle as the year progresses. Kinda happened w/the Browns the past two years.
Hope this helps and feel free to ask more questions if I haven't been clear.......which is probably the case.
Thanks Vers, that first video was awesome. I agree it takes an i7 processor to get that stuff processed fast enough to be effective. I think my brain is still on the Pentium processor and would never be able to do that.
So let's say that RGIII has a i5 processor, but it takes an i7 processor to really be good at post-snap reads. Is there anything he or the coaches can do to push RGIII closer to that i7 processing speed? Or is it just an innate talent that one either has or doesn't have?
Also, the post-snap read is really not just the QB's responsibility for determining, correct? Because if the receivers, RB's, FB's, and linemen don't correctly read it then disaster can occur. Is that right, or is the QB able to communicate to everyone what has happened. I would think he would not be able too, unless the defense showed itself prematurely and then maybe he could audible out or make changes accordingly. Thanks for the information.
BTW, the second link went to a search page, was that what you wanted me to look at?
.............is will he ever be able to read defenses post-snap?
Vers, this is a teaching moment for me. What I mean is that I am not sure what a post-snap read is. I think I understand what a pre-snap read is because the QB has to determine what he thinks the defense is going to do, call the right protection, audible if he thinks the O is in the wrong play. But can you explain to me what or how you read post-snap or what the QB is looking for post-snap? Also if I am wrong on the pre-snap read can you tell me where I am wrong so I can try to get the concept? Thanks.
Vers can explain it better than me , but I believe he is talking about when a defense has disguised what scheme it will run on the play. i.e. The safeties appear to be in cover two but the free safety on the snap quickly moves up to run support or to jump an underneath route. Or the corners look to be man to man but bail on the snap to a deep zone for a cover three.
BTW, IMO he is correct in that RG3 biggest weakness is his inability to read post snap or to digest the imformation quick enough to make the pass.
Yeah, the defense can do any number of things to change up their look post snap. The Pats really messed with Peyton Manning's head for a number of years by waiting until the very last second to show what they were really going to do once the ball was snapped. I think that it can be very effective, but the defense has to be sure, on every snap, what they are doing. The risk is that one (or more) defensive player does the wrong thing, as all of the defensive alignments look very similar right up to the snap, and it is a lot more mentally intensive than running specific defenses where the player can look at say "If my keys is this, then I do this ..... and if my key is that, then I do that." (at least IMHO)
Thanks YTown, I hate the Patriots, but that is another story. I do appreciate the information though.
I have found that if you really want to screw up the lpost snap is to run a match up zone. Where it appears your going man to man but you hand the receiver off at a certain place.
This also helps defend sissor routes but can be terrible on wheel routes
Griffin doesn't need Hue or anybody to rebuild or revive his career. RG3 and any of our QB's really need this coaching staff and FO to show patience by constructing a system that supports them and that plays to their strengths and builds their confidence. You know? Something we haven't seen here since before the other Brown's bailed Clev.
Griffin has all the tools. He can read defenses pre and post snap and has shown that capability in a number of games in his career. He can go through the progressions and knows how long to hold the ball for receivers to get open or to get to the 1st down line.
It's really all about building a good offensive system and building QB confidence in it. Griffin is on a different level than McCown or any of the other available QB's including Fitz and Osweiler.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
First of all........I enjoyed all of the posts since I last visited the thread. Good stuff. Very educational.
Secondly.......farmville, you are a very fast learner. Impressive.
I think your points about processing speed are right on the money. Most of us would only see a blur if we playing qb in an NFL game. I do think it is an innate gift.
You made another good point about it's not just the QB who has to make the post-snap read. You have probably seen a throw that looks way off and the qb is looking at the WR and motioning w/his arm after the play. Or, you've heard how they QB and WR weren't on the same page. Yeah, that's post-snap read stuff. You have probably even have heard of "hot reads" and "sight adjustments." These are reads that are made after the snap or right before the snap when the defense changes their look at the last moment.
I think the coaches and RGIII [through a lot of study in the video room] can improve the latter's pre-snap reads. That would be huge for him.
It is my opinion that post-snap reads are more of an innate gift. We all hear about throwing w/anticipation, but not many people explain what that is. It's pretty complex and perhaps we can discuss it later, if anyone wants to. I find it fascinating. I have not seen RGIII excel at that part of the game and it is my biggest concern w/him. But, we can always hope.
Sorry about the link. It worked earlier. I must have messed up when I copied the earlier posts. Let me see if I can find it again....It was just a page that showed diagrams of different coverages for just Cover 2 and 3. I can't find it now, but just do a search for images of coverages in football and you will see how many different looks there are. It's incredible.
Here is a pretty cool article that I think you will enjoy:
Griffin's career has been very visible. Coming out of college he won the Heisman and a bunch of of other awards. He was drafted second, then won Rookie of the Year.
After that it has been pretty much downhill. Lot's has been published why? Especially when:
"the Redskins acquired the pick by giving the Rams four high-value draft picks over three years: their first-round picks in 2012 (No.6 overall), 2013 (No.22 overall), and 2014 (No.2 overall), as well as their second-round pick (No.39 overall) in 2012.
Is he worth the gamble as a 26 year old guy? Mmmm remember Weeden? He was 28 when we drafted him at 22 in the first round and he really had not done much?
Griffin's flaws are obvious. The question is whether he will work to correct them under new management?
The answer to that question is: we don't know.
So it is important that we have other options.
Have the Browns upgraded the position? We shall see. If McCown is traded ( apparently he is on the block), and the Browns draft a quarterback (which seems to be "the plan") Then it all depends on how Griffin performs and who they draft and how he performs.
It is interesting to read everyone's take.
However, at this point all that is being discussed is speculation and opinion.
It all falls into the category of to be determined.
I have found that if you really want to screw up the lpost snap is to run a match up zone. Where it appears your going man to man but you hand the receiver off at a certain place.
This also helps defend sissor routes but can be terrible on wheel routes
There is always an answer.
You can always force a defense to tip it's hand by putting a guy into motion. The guy you have lined up on him pre-snap can not simply leave his zone and follow the motion man to the other side of the field. You will always have to do some sort of shift instead.
Yeah, a qb can determine a lot by watching how the defense reacts to motion.
I'm glad you brought that up. I wasn't even thinking about that. Hope it's okay if I provide an explanation for those who are trying to picture what you are talking about [like farmville]????
We have all seen a guy go in motion and one of the dbs shadow him as he runs parallel to the LOS, right? And we've all seen how defenses will actually widen to the outside and even alter their depth when they see the motion on offense, whether it be from a WR, TE, or RB.
The reaction of the defense really helps the offense get a read on what the defense plans to do after the snap.
I'd like to add a bit if I could because I love talking about the game behind the game.
Just what is the QB reading?
Pre-snap:
The first thing that a QB reads is the number of guys in the box. The box is usually defined as an imaginary box between the tackles that extends about 5 yards past the line of scrimmage. This is the run/pass read. Rules vary in different offensive schemes, but basically if a defense has 6 or fewer players in the box your offense has an advantage running the ball. If it has 7 or more you should have the advantage throwing the ball.
Next thing is usually figuring out the Mike
The Mike isn't necessarily the middle LB on the play. It's the guy the QB wants the o-line to consider as the MLB on the play. The blocking scheme will be based off this.
The next read is either looking at the free safety or the CB's. This will depend on the defense that you are facing and what their tendencies are.
CB's: If the corners are lined up close to the WR on the line of scrimmage they are probably in Man coverage. Another sign of this is if the CB is slightly to the inside of the WR, he probably does not have safety help. A CB without safety help wants to force the WR to keep toward the sideline and use the sideline as an extra defender. A CB with safety help wants to do the opposite and line-up slightly outside the WR and force him inside where he has safety help. You are also looking for clues that they may be trying to disguise their coverage by purposely lining up differently. I'll get into that more later but an easy clue is that if a CB's backs are pointed to the sidelines it is probably zone coverage and if their backs are pointed toward the endzone, it is probably man coverage. So let's say that the CB is giving you a clue that it is man coverage, but he is lined up 10 yards off the line of scrimmage. That might mean that he is concerned about your WR's speed and giving him a buffer. You might want to throw a quick pass to that WR especially if you see pressure in the box. On the other hand if you read zone, but the CB is up close to the line of scrimmage, it's a tell that he is only responsible for the flat zone and a Safety must be responsible for the deep zone on that side.
FS: In about half of the defensive coverages a Free Safety is going to be in "over the top coverage" where he'll usually start in the deep middle of the field. The other half of the time he'll be positioned at the same depth or a little shallower closer to one of the hash marks. An exception is if you see a low FS that's in or just to the right or the left of the box. He could be blitzing, but this isn't really common for defenses and more likely he has man coverage, usually on the TE. A QB should look to the SS in this situation because more often than not, he is usually the one blitzing. The potential for a long pass to the deep middle is there with the right audible.
Okay before we talk about post snap reads, one more word about those clues that I talked about earlier. This is where game film comes in and why QB's like Peyton Manning are so much better at this than other QB's. Despite a players best intentions to disguise a play, he is only human and usually his body language will give the play away. QB's will study all the DB's for clues in their stance and where their eyes are looking pre-snap. He'll also study what the DB does post snap when switching from the "sugar" or fake defense to the defense that they are actually running. This is often times the first thing that the QB is looking for in his post snap reads. Once the ball is snapped defenders focus on their jobs and forget about trickery.
Post snap reads:
There are only 2 steps to this.
The first step is to figure out if you were right about the coverage.
The second step is to go through your read progression based off what the defense is giving you.
The better off that you are on your pre-snap reads, the easier it makes your post snap reads.
There is a ton more to this than the simple explanation that I gave, but it gives you the idea I think.
Deputy, so would you call the way a CB is turned and positioned a tell to what the post-snap defense or coverage may be? For me when I played basketball my eyes were always up and it was like playing chess in that I could see what the defense was doing and also what the offensive player was getting ready to do.
I guess that would be the anticipation of where the defenders will be and putting your offensive players where they are not going to be or throwing to the open spot instead of waiting.
Also knowing where the FS & SS were positioned pre-snap should be a heads up on what the coverage or blitz package may be post-snap, right? If these are tells, then I would say that studying the tendencies of the DBs and LBs pre-snap to post-snap would be something that could be taught at least to a certain degree??? Although I imagine the great QBs like Peyton and Tom can do this to a much higher degree because of innate abilities they are born with versus having to rely solely on studying film. However, they study film a lot which makes them elite in what they can do. Does that make sense?
Pre-Snap has to be done. You look at the coverages the defense and from the tree pre snap take your best miss match on the field.
Now a lot of QBs who don't make it...Weeden for example. They just do not know when to move onto the Progression - they have to see Post snap that the miss match just is not there for whatever reason. Move onto the progression. Not locking onto that one WR and just won't move the eyes or head.
You can teach QBs especially at a young age how to conquer that bad habit. I would always teach a primary read and then to quickly decide if that miss match is there or not, if not quickly move onto the check down. And you build from there.
You try to teach the tree and play where actually without locking onto one WR but see the field and read the key defender if he goes there you are hitting so n so. This is how you have patterns set up and ran on different levels of the field.
But its a mental thing. For the life of me I don't know why a lot of QBs just stick with that Pre Snap read and refuse to let go. Or they finally get off of it but its way too late and get hit. jmho
Tab, can you explain the tree thing? I know it has to do with routes that the receivers run, but is there any logic to the tree or is it whatever the offense is running? Do most teams identify the tree the same or differently? Thanks for the info!
so RG3 is #10 (as we all assumed) ... wonder how much he gave o Jennings for it?
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Jeudy is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Tillman is flanked out wide to the right. Judkins and Ford are split in the backfield as Flacco takes the snap ... Here we go."
First of all........I enjoyed all of the posts since I last visited the thread. Good stuff. Very educational.
Secondly.......farmville, you are a very fast learner. Impressive.
I think your points about processing speed are right on the money. Most of us would only see a blur if we playing qb in an NFL game. I do think it is an innate gift.
You made another good point about it's not just the QB who has to make the post-snap read. You have probably seen a throw that looks way off and the qb is looking at the WR and motioning w/his arm after the play. Or, you've heard how they QB and WR weren't on the same page. Yeah, that's post-snap read stuff. You have probably even have heard of "hot reads" and "sight adjustments." These are reads that are made after the snap or right before the snap when the defense changes their look at the last moment.
I think the coaches and RGIII [through a lot of study in the video room] can improve the latter's pre-snap reads. That would be huge for him.
It is my opinion that post-snap reads are more of an innate gift. We all hear about throwing w/anticipation, but not many people explain what that is. It's pretty complex and perhaps we can discuss it later, if anyone wants to. I find it fascinating. I have not seen RGIII excel at that part of the game and it is my biggest concern w/him. But, we can always hope.
Sorry about the link. It worked earlier. I must have messed up when I copied the earlier posts. Let me see if I can find it again....It was just a page that showed diagrams of different coverages for just Cover 2 and 3. I can't find it now, but just do a search for images of coverages in football and you will see how many different looks there are. It's incredible.
Here is a pretty cool article that I think you will enjoy:
Hopefully, we'll get more educational replies and get more good questions like the ones you proposed.
Vers, I think I understand the anticipation throws or throwing to a spot because as a basketball player I can remember using my eyes to anticipate where my teammates and the defenders were going to be and making passes based on that. I think it is a lot like how Lebron makes so many beautiful crazy passes. They're not really crazy it's just that he sees things so much better than most and so far ahead of everyone else they just are silky smooth.
I think that also has a lot to do with chemistry and playing together for an extended amount of time as well as playing in the same offense for more than one or two seasons. Do you think that making throws with anticipation, once whoever our QB is going to be, will be easier with the offense playing together for a longer period of time? Another words can the post-snap SNAFUS be limited with cohesion and chemistry between the QB and the rest of the offense? Thanks for the links very interesting stuff.
Yeah, a qb can determine a lot by watching how the defense reacts to motion.
I'm glad you brought that up. I wasn't even thinking about that. Hope it's okay if I provide an explanation for those who are trying to picture what you are talking about [like farmville]????
We have all seen a guy go in motion and one of the dbs shadow him as he runs parallel to the LOS, right? And we've all seen how defenses will actually widen to the outside and even alter their depth when they see the motion on offense, whether it be from a WR, TE, or RB.
The reaction of the defense really helps the offense get a read on what the defense plans to do after the snap.
Good point.
I should prob put a picture up.
This is what we mean.
See the DB mirroring the guy in motion?
This has to be man coverage. If it were zone the DB wouldn't leave his zone empty. Furthermore, you know that it is this DB's job to cover this particular WR.
Yeah, a qb can determine a lot by watching how the defense reacts to motion.
I'm glad you brought that up. I wasn't even thinking about that. Hope it's okay if I provide an explanation for those who are trying to picture what you are talking about [like farmville]????
We have all seen a guy go in motion and one of the dbs shadow him as he runs parallel to the LOS, right? And we've all seen how defenses will actually widen to the outside and even alter their depth when they see the motion on offense, whether it be from a WR, TE, or RB.
The reaction of the defense really helps the offense get a read on what the defense plans to do after the snap.
Good point.
I should prob put a picture up.
This is what we mean.
See the DB mirroring the guy in motion?
This has to be man coverage. If it were zone the DB wouldn't leave his zone empty. Furthermore, you know that it is this DB's job to cover this particular WR.
Deputy, no picture there. However, I know what you are talking about. Thanks everyone for all your learning points. I am really enjoying the lessons.
Well the Tree is for each individual WR where they line up from the ball. Left or right. Simple is the 9 or fly is the straight line Trunk of the tree and then all other patterns come off of that 9 route forming branch if all drawn on the board. ergo tree.
Most go from 1 to a 9...coaches do change it up to their preferences Usually to the Inside will be all EVEN numbers, to the outside all Odd. Again Coaches change it up to make it their own. You can add words like Wheel, etc. But most keep the tree to single digit numbers.
Now what I was talking about before about running the tree and being able to see the field.
Lets say on the right you got Y (TE) S (slot) Z (WR) you will have Z do a 2 (slant) the slot a 1 (flat) and the Y a 7 (Corner Fade) - all off of play action. So that when the QB finishes his fake and drop he can take one looke to the right and see all 3 routes - his key might be the ss or FS whoever drops to that side especially after a play action. In many case all are open..lol
Now the NFL and coaches add so much more to that BASIC 101 Tree. I am a K.I.S.S. guy.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
I'd like to add a bit if I could because I love talking about the game behind the game.
Just what is the QB reading?
Pre-snap:
The first thing that a QB reads is the number of guys in the box. The box is usually defined as an imaginary box between the tackles that extends about 5 yards past the line of scrimmage. This is the run/pass read. Rules vary in different offensive schemes, but basically if a defense has 6 or fewer players in the box your offense has an advantage running the ball. If it has 7 or more you should have the advantage throwing the ball.
Next thing is usually figuring out the Mike
The Mike isn't necessarily the middle LB on the play. It's the guy the QB wants the o-line to consider as the MLB on the play. The blocking scheme will be based off this.
The next read is either looking at the free safety or the CB's. This will depend on the defense that you are facing and what their tendencies are.
CB's: If the corners are lined up close to the WR on the line of scrimmage they are probably in Man coverage. Another sign of this is if the CB is slightly to the inside of the WR, he probably does not have safety help. A CB without safety help wants to force the WR to keep toward the sideline and use the sideline as an extra defender. A CB with safety help wants to do the opposite and line-up slightly outside the WR and force him inside where he has safety help. You are also looking for clues that they may be trying to disguise their coverage by purposely lining up differently. I'll get into that more later but an easy clue is that if a CB's backs are pointed to the sidelines it is probably zone coverage and if their backs are pointed toward the endzone, it is probably man coverage. So let's say that the CB is giving you a clue that it is man coverage, but he is lined up 10 yards off the line of scrimmage. That might mean that he is concerned about your WR's speed and giving him a buffer. You might want to throw a quick pass to that WR especially if you see pressure in the box. On the other hand if you read zone, but the CB is up close to the line of scrimmage, it's a tell that he is only responsible for the flat zone and a Safety must be responsible for the deep zone on that side.
FS: In about half of the defensive coverages a Free Safety is going to be in "over the top coverage" where he'll usually start in the deep middle of the field. The other half of the time he'll be positioned at the same depth or a little shallower closer to one of the hash marks. An exception is if you see a low FS that's in or just to the right or the left of the box. He could be blitzing, but this isn't really common for defenses and more likely he has man coverage, usually on the TE. A QB should look to the SS in this situation because more often than not, he is usually the one blitzing. The potential for a long pass to the deep middle is there with the right audible.
Okay before we talk about post snap reads, one more word about those clues that I talked about earlier. This is where game film comes in and why QB's like Peyton Manning are so much better at this than other QB's. Despite a players best intentions to disguise a play, he is only human and usually his body language will give the play away. QB's will study all the DB's for clues in their stance and where their eyes are looking pre-snap. He'll also study what the DB does post snap when switching from the "sugar" or fake defense to the defense that they are actually running. This is often times the first thing that the QB is looking for in his post snap reads. Once the ball is snapped defenders focus on their jobs and forget about trickery.
Post snap reads:
There are only 2 steps to this.
The first step is to figure out if you were right about the coverage.
The second step is to go through your read progression based off what the defense is giving you.
The better off that you are on your pre-snap reads, the easier it makes your post snap reads.
There is a ton more to this than the simple explanation that I gave, but it gives you the idea I think.
Deputy, so would you call the way a CB is turned and positioned a tell to what the post-snap defense or coverage may be? For me when I played basketball my eyes were always up and it was like playing chess in that I could see what the defense was doing and also what the offensive player was getting ready to do.
I guess that would be the anticipation of where the defenders will be and putting your offensive players where they are not going to be or throwing to the open spot instead of waiting.
Also knowing where the FS & SS were positioned pre-snap should be a heads up on what the coverage or blitz package may be post-snap, right? If these are tells, then I would say that studying the tendencies of the DBs and LBs pre-snap to post-snap would be something that could be taught at least to a certain degree??? Although I imagine the great QBs like Peyton and Tom can do this to a much higher degree because of innate abilities they are born with versus having to rely solely on studying film. However, they study film a lot which makes them elite in what they can do. Does that make sense?
It makes perfect sense. QB's first need to process info quickly. That is something that is difficult to impossible to teach. It's a similar skill to what fighter pilots or air traffic controllers have.
The film study part comes in to teach your QB what to look for in each particular defense.
For example look at the same picture I posted to show motion above.
See the FS?
He is already cheating up from a high safety look.
This means that he probably has man coverage on the TE. So now pre-snap the QB knows the jobs of 3 DB's with pretty good confidence. The DB on the left certainly has man on the WR he is nose up on. He is lined up slightly inside too which means he doesn't have help.
If the WR and TE on the left side of the offense have option routes, the first two reads on this play are most likely...
1) WR on the left 15 yard post pattern or go pattern. If he beats the DB covering him watch to see if the FS forgets his job and moves to cover the WR. If he does, then the TE should be wide open. If not, then this is probably a TD to the WR because the deep middle is wide open.
2) TE out the the shallow flat on the left. Make the FS cover maximum ground to get to him. If the LB that is above the TE follows him to the flat, then he is most likely doubled and you'll need to go to your third option.
Notice the whole idea of the pre-snap is to give the QB a plan for the post-snap. This makes his post-snap decision process simpler.
I have found that if you really want to screw up the lpost snap is to run a match up zone. Where it appears your going man to man but you hand the receiver off at a certain place.
This also helps defend sissor routes but can be terrible on wheel routes
There is always an answer.
You can always force a defense to tip it's hand by putting a guy into motion. The guy you have lined up on him pre-snap can not simply leave his zone and follow the motion man to the other side of the field. You will always have to do some sort of shift instead.
For sure
I saw a defense once were they rolled there corners and safeties in a circular motion. Corner vacated area. Safety rolled down other safety rolled over corner rolled back and motion corner took that zone.
It was pretty cool. But you are correct with your motion comments.
I have found that if you really want to screw up the lpost snap is to run a match up zone. Where it appears your going man to man but you hand the receiver off at a certain place.
This also helps defend sissor routes but can be terrible on wheel routes
There is always an answer.
You can always force a defense to tip it's hand by putting a guy into motion. The guy you have lined up on him pre-snap can not simply leave his zone and follow the motion man to the other side of the field. You will always have to do some sort of shift instead.
For sure
I saw a defense once were they rolled there corners and safeties in a circular motion. Corner vacated area. Safety rolled down other safety rolled over corner rolled back and motion corner took that zone.
It was pretty cool. But you are correct with your motion comments.
Nothing like making your players motion sick before the play.
...You wanna disagree w/my points.......fine. But, don't freaking say I am a liar.
Lol, okay. If you want to insist I called you liar, even though I didn't that's your prerogative.
I'll start with agreeing that without a doubt there are reports that say all manner of negative things about Griffin off the field.
But, I think if you accept those narratives as fact then you are placing yourself at the whim of the 'source's' opinion.
I specifically disagree with your perception that: He threw his offensive line under the bus. He went behind his coaches' backs to the owner. He had that sense of entitlement and soon he was not very popular w/his teammates.
I am not going to spam the thread with a bunch of articles (although I could) from Griffin teammates. But there are plenty; and its rare that a player not even currently on the team gets defended to the extent Griffin was.
I leave it at that.
None of that really has anything to do with Griffin's issues as a QB on the field though.
There will be several challenges in rebuilding Griffin. I agree that Griffin didn't consistently read through progressions. I think the solution to that issue is 2 fold: (1) get him reps (2) get him to completely understand the play concept.
Griffin is gonna need lots of reps. This ties into another issue: durability. You have to be healthy to get reps and in 2014 Griffin was hurt before Week 3. So Griffin is going to have to stay healthy and take lots of reps. This means being much smarter about when, where and how to get down. This imo is going to have to be an organizational/coaching staff point of emphasis. Watch tape from Cam, Russell, Alex Smith, Aaron Rodgers any of the QB that can scramble and avoid big hits. They need to watch enough film of those QBs to develop a set of situational "running rules" for Griffin. Griffin needs to learn them, live them and love them. Griffin's ability as QB in this league is going to directly tied to his mastery of protecting himself. All of the talk about Griffin having a resurgence are moot if he runs leg first into Geno Atkins.
Comfort and confidence in the pocket going through progressions. Griffin needs clearly defined reads right now. Imo if you ask Griffin to drop back 35+ times and make full progression reads he's going to struggle. The difference difference between when Griffin knows the play vs when Griffin is unsure/thinking through the play is night and day. In essence you want to create a situation where Griffin feels as sure of where the ball is going as he does if he was throwing playaction. That is a very tall task. And imo, Jay had Griffin out there trying to execute full field progression reads at stage that for a more scaled back or managed approach and results were a QB who was and looked unsure.
They have to get Griffin to play without thinking and trust what he sees. Early on that's could mean relying on play-action, read-option and half field reads/hi-lo concepts. At first Griffin is going to have to be heavily managed through play calling, (ala Alex Smith w/ KC). They are gonna have to build his confidence back up with easy 'starters'/'gimme' plays.
From the coaching standpoint though, its gonna take a staff that believes in him in order to accept doing everything in their power to make him successful. And if I may say so, I think Jay's eagerness to get Kirk Cousins out there caused him to have an unusually short leash in sending Griffin to the bench.
Hue, Pep and Al are gonna have to truly understand where Griffin is in his development. Pep is going to have to be very flexible in building the playbook. They're gonna have to understand what he does/doesn't do well and limit their offense to his level of development until he's ready to expand the offense. Its unlikely that they're just going to be able to conduct a base west coast offense install and expect Griffin to understand all the concepts 100% through and through. Rather they're likely gonna have build based on what he can do. When they call a play they have to know without a doubt that Griffin understands and can execute the play at high level.
And, it could be that Griffin isn't ready to run an offense that's not any more complicated then the Bills. But, I don't think many Brown's fan's would be upset with Tyrod Taylor's level of production.
I agree with all of the above, but would add that they should be practice reps until he gets confident.
I am not a fan of the dumbed down offense and would prefer that he knows pro reads. We are also drafting a rookie and I don't want to have the coaches teach 2 offenses.
I don't mind the rollouts and waggles and RG3 specific plays, but I'd prefer one base offense.
I also don't want to throw him out there half-baked. Let McCown play until he can make the reads. Don't let him eat sacks trying to learn. Don't deflate his ego either. If he can make the reads week one then start him. If he needs more time, give him the goal that he can start when he can make the reads. Even if he isn't starting, put him in here and there and have a coach giving him feedback as soon as he hits the sideline. Run plays that you know he can run to build his confidence.
and wow, most of his injuries didn't even come from contact.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
I never have truly understood Gruden's love affair with Cousins. Yea, they made the playoffs last year, but they did not beat any team that had over a 500 record. Cousins still gets rattled as well and has thrown several interceptions in his career. He may very well develop into a great quarterback, but he is far from it right now.
I never have truly understood Gruden's love affair with Cousins. Yea, they made the playoffs last year, but they did not beat any team that had over a 500 record. Cousins still gets rattled as well and has thrown several interceptions in his career. He may very well develop into a great quarterback, but he is far from it right now.
Gruden runs a very complex offense that wasn't a great fit for RG3. I don't have any idea on how much effort Gruden put in to coach him up.
Griffin doesn't need Hue or anybody to rebuild or revive his career. RG3 and any of our QB's really need this coaching staff and FO to show patience by constructing a system that supports them and that plays to their strengths and builds their confidence. You know? Something we haven't seen here since before the other Brown's bailed Clev.
Griffin has all the tools. He can read defenses pre and post snap and has shown that capability in a number of games in his career. He can go through the progressions and knows how long to hold the ball for receivers to get open or to get to the 1st down line.
It's really all about building a good offensive system and building QB confidence in it. Griffin is on a different level than McCown or any of the other available QB's including Fitz and Osweiler.
Here's hoping his trip to the QB "guru" is fruitful. Here's hoping that RG3 is smart enough to know he needs to LIVE football. Learn an offense that has been successful for five decades. He's going to be surrounded by some seriously talented offensive minds. So if he has half a brain he will shut up, listen, and do exactly what they tell him to do. Which is what he should have done with the Redskins. His ego got in the way. Lets hope the last couple years got rid of that!
A humble RG3 willing to listen and learn is absolutely worth having around. An arogant asshat that thinks he knows more about football than the coaching staff isn't....
Either way we still need to find a QB in the draft....
and wow, most of his injuries didn't even come from contact.
What he needs to do is learn how to stand in the pocket and if nothing is there throw the ball away. He is too fragile to play that run option stuff any longer. He's got a good arm. He should USE IT. He has to learn how to play professional football. That will take a LOT of effort. So lets see if he learns. I look at him as nothing more than a project. A rebuild. We still have to find a QB in the draft. It would be a serious mistake to pin all of our hopes on a project QB.
Quick release. Quick decisions. The key to not getting hit is not having the ball in your hand.
We need more WRs that can get open, whether it's Gordon, a Rookie or both.
We need a running game. Anything resembling consistency in the running game would be great. Stop gaining 3 yards on 1st down only to lose 2 on 2nd down...
We are not the least talented team in the league. It will take time for new things to gel, as it always does, that's not an excuse, it's just logic.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
and wow, most of his injuries didn't even come from contact.
What he needs to do is learn how to stand in the pocket and if nothing is there throw the ball away. He is too fragile to play that run option stuff any longer. He's got a good arm. He should USE IT. He has to learn how to play professional football. That will take a LOT of effort. So lets see if he learns. I look at him as nothing more than a project. A rebuild. We still have to find a QB in the draft. It would be a serious mistake to pin all of our hopes on a project QB.
In the back of my head, I'm still thinking that he might be a bigger project than the rookie we draft. He has the arm talent though.
If he gets a "Whatever it freakin takes!" attitude we can strike gold, but I think we are going to be digging for a while. He's not used to things coming hard.
But, I think if you accept those narratives as fact then you are placing yourself at the whim of the 'source's' opinion.
Well, two people liked your post. Of course, they didn't like any of the posts that were about football. Very typical of those types of posters.
Look, you living in DC means very little. The world has changed. People have almost instant access to information through a variety of sources. So, unless you were in the locker room or you are a relative of RGIII, you are just another poster on the board and your opinions don't carry more weight than anyone else's.
I never have truly understood Gruden's love affair with Cousins. Yea, they made the playoffs last year, but they did not beat any team that had over a 500 record. Cousins still gets rattled as well and has thrown several interceptions in his career. He may very well develop into a great quarterback, but he is far from it right now.
Perhaps some can't truly understand your love affair w/RGIII? Personally, I think the coaching staff probably knows more about how good each of the quarterbacks were/are than you do.
I have a question for both you and ed.......Have you both stopped being Redskin fans? Are you both now Brown's fans? Or, are you both just RGIII fans? I think it is important to know the answers to those questions when evaluating your posts. Thanks in advance for answering.
I have a question for both you and ed.......Have you both stopped being Redskin fans? Are you both now Brown's fans? Or, are you both just RGIII fans? I think it is important to know the answers to those questions when evaluating your posts. Thanks in advance for answering
Says the guy who openly states he's not a Browns fan anymore.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
I am not an NFL fan period. I used to be a Cowboys fan, but Jerry ruined that for me. The NFL is a business pure and simple. I enjoy football and I enjoy watching NFL games, but not a big fan of any team at this time. I am an RG3 fan for what he did for Baylor. I am a huge Baylor football fan. Not sure how this relates to my posts on this board. I am hoping for RG3 to be successful in Cleveland. Being an RG3 fan does not mean that I am blind to his difficulties. He has not been the same since his last knee injury, but he was amazing for the Redskins his rookie year before the injury. Regardless, I will always hope for the best for RG3. He and Coach Briles together turned that football program around.
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